The case for Elvis Andrus @ 2nd Base

[Balta1701]

Here is the list of positions I have come up with where I feel the White Sox have sufficient depth to get through a season with no problems.

1. People named Reinsdorf.
2. The Grounds Crew. Thanks to Roger Bossard. 

Right now I don't think they even have enough marketing people, they definitely don't have enough radio and TV people under contract, I'm not sure they have enough vendors considering they picketed the bloody stadium at the end of the season, and there's literally no position on the diamond where I would say "They have enough depth that they won't have any issue during this season."

So, would Elvis Andrus make sense for this team receiving an invitation to spring training? Absolutely. If they were to sign him, I would go so far as to say that between the injury histories of Moncada and Anderson, Leury's performance and injury history, and the inexperience of Sosa and Romy, there would be a high likelihood that he would make the team out of spring training. If he didn't' make the roster out of spring training we would probably need him for something by the end of May, and right now they have no one they could call up who could fill that kind of role. They would wind up calling up Burger and playing Leury or Romy full time at 2b or SS if someone struggled or got hurt, which is just a mess. The White Sox would be better with Elvis Andrus as an additional option than they are right now. 

Elvis Andrus is not a starting player on anything other than a bottom of the league team. He is a guy who can be slightly above replacement level, we shouldn't count on anything more than that. But, the White Sox right now don't have replacement level infielders in their organization if anyone gets hurt or if anyone (including Leury, who was awful and who had a back injury last year) struggles again this year. 

Now here's the problem. If Andrus was on this roster as a spring training invite, and the setup was for him to come up once someone had a chance to struggle through April or once someone got hurt, and he was in a spot where he might receive 200 plate appearances and play 50 games...that's not a terrible plan for $1 million. However, the question is whether we could limit him to that role. If Tony LaRussa was the manager, I would have to say "No you cannot sign him. If you sign him, he will receive 600 plate appearances regardless of how bad he is. It will not matter if a rookie can outperform him, he will get preference because he's a veteran."

Can Pedro Grifol manage a veteran and 2 rookies at infield positions? I don't know. I don't have a lot of confidence that they won't screw it up, but if they could do it correctly, having him in the organization could make them better overall. 

It is also possible that someone could give an Elvis Andrus type player a big league contract. There are bad teams in the league, he could potentially start for one of them right now. The White sox should not offer Andrus that kind of deal, and if he would prefer that to a minor league deal with a team that has an outside chance of competing, then that's his business, find someone else who can fill that role. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Here is the list of positions I have come up with where I feel the White Sox have sufficient depth to get through a season with no problems.

1. People named Reinsdorf.
2. The Grounds Crew. Thanks to Roger Bossard. 

Right now I don't think they even have enough marketing people, they definitely don't have enough radio and TV people under contract, I'm not sure they have enough vendors considering they picketed the bloody stadium at the end of the season, and there's literally no position on the diamond where I would say "They have enough depth that they won't have any issue during this season."

So, would Elvis Andrus make sense for this team receiving an invitation to spring training? Absolutely. If they were to sign him, I would go so far as to say that between the injury histories of Moncada and Anderson, Leury's performance and injury history, and the inexperience of Sosa and Romy, there would be a high likelihood that he would make the team out of spring training. If he didn't' make the roster out of spring training we would probably need him for something by the end of May, and right now they have no one they could call up who could fill that kind of role. They would wind up calling up Burger and playing Leury or Romy full time at 2b or SS if someone struggled or got hurt, which is just a mess. The White Sox would be better with Elvis Andrus as an additional option than they are right now. 

Elvis Andrus is not a starting player on anything other than a bottom of the league team. He is a guy who can be slightly above replacement level, we shouldn't count on anything more than that. But, the White Sox right now don't have replacement level infielders in their organization if anyone gets hurt or if anyone (including Leury, who was awful and who had a back injury last year) struggles again this year. 

Now here's the problem. If Andrus was on this roster as a spring training invite, and the setup was for him to come up once someone had a chance to struggle through April or once someone got hurt, and he was in a spot where he might receive 200 plate appearances and play 50 games...that's not a terrible plan for $1 million. However, the question is whether we could limit him to that role. If Tony LaRussa was the manager, I would have to say "No you cannot sign him. If you sign him, he will receive 600 plate appearances regardless of how bad he is. It will not matter if a rookie can outperform him, he will get preference because he's a veteran."

Can Pedro Grifol manage a veteran and 2 rookies at infield positions? I don't know. I don't have a lot of confidence that they won't screw it up, but if they could do it correctly, having him in the organization could make them better overall. 

It is also possible that someone could give an Elvis Andrus type player a big league contract. There are bad teams in the league, he could potentially start for one of them right now. The White sox should not offer Andrus that kind of deal, and if he would prefer that to a minor league deal with a team that has an outside chance of competing, then that's his business, find someone else who can fill that role. 

This all makes sense and I agree wholeheartedly with most of it. However depth pieces usually cost more than a $1M contract at least on good teams who are serious about contending.

4th OF is definitely the biggest priority but also if you don't want Leury , Romy , Hamilton or Reyes at 2b or in the OF, then depth will cost you. You can trade for Kemp I suppose , but then again you're going to have people equating him with Leury without the versatility of being bad at all positions. I didn't suggest the Kemp idea but I agreed with it because there are aspects of his game that are more of a sure thing . But that poster didn't start a thread for it to be scrutinized by the Leury's Lovers or Andrus Doubters ,however you wish to categorize them.

Just like with Duvall the highest bidder will get them. I am doubtful Andrus is around to receive a generous Sox offer of $1M and I am also doubtful that Sox DFA Leury .

My case for Andrus is more about depth then it is power , defense , stolen bases or a savvy veteran who does the little things and plays smart baseball. No matter how you slice it he had a very good year and he will probably get paid for it. How much he gets is unknown but I would imagine somewhere around what Harrison got  last year from and Harrison wasn't coming off a 3.5 fWar season with 17 HR's. However unlikely he is to repeat that performance , it is the most recent sample we have. Leury's most recent sample was -1.1 fWar.

People whined about the McCann signing too but he stuck around for a 2nd year in which he did well too. They are always going to whine about guys who appear to be who we thought they are. Most of the time they are right except for the recent string of good luck with McCann, Rodon , Cueto and Andrus. McCann turned back into a pumpkin once he left the Sox. Rodon turned into one of the best pitchers in baseball for 2 years. It remains to be seen how Cueto and Andrus do for another year.

Just like with Rodon they would rather thank them for their service for the year and send them on their way with the righteousness of the odds being stacked against them due to injury concerns or the ravages of time and the most recent performance overshadowed by previous performances.

Edited January 2, 2023 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

This all makes sense and I agree wholeheartedly with most of it. However depth pieces usually cost more than a $1M contract at least on good teams who are serious about contending.

4th OF is definitely the biggest priority but also if you don't want Leury , Romy , Hamilton or Reyes at 2b or in the OF, then depth will cost you. You can trade for Kemp I suppose , but then again you're going to have people equating him with Leury without the versatility of being bad at all positions. I didn't suggest the Kemp idea but I agreed with it because there are aspects of his game that are more of a sure thing . But that poster didn't start a thread for it to be scrutinized by the Leury's Lovers or Andrus Doubters ,however you wish to categorize them.

Just like with Duvall the highest bidder will get them. I am doubtful Andrus is around to receive a generous Sox offer of $1M and I am also doubtful that Sox DFA Leury .

My case for Andrus is more about depth then it is power , defense , stolen bases or a savvy veteran who does the little things and plays smart baseball. No matter how you slice it he had a very good year and he will probably get paid for it. How much he gets is unknown but I would imagine somewhere around what Harrison got  last year from and Harrison wasn't coming off a 3.5 fWar season with 17 HR's. However unlikely he is to repeat that performance , it is the most recent sample we have. Leury's most recent sample was -1.1 fWar.

People whined about the McCann signing too but he stuck around for a 2nd year in which he did well too. They are always going to whine about guys who appear to be who we thought they are. Most of the time they are right except for the recent string of good luck with McCann, Rodon , Cueto and Andrus. McCann turned back into a pumpkin once he left the Sox. Rodon turned into one of the best pitchers in baseball for 2 years. It remains to be seen how Cueto and Andrus do for another year.

Just like with Rodon they would rather thank them for their service for the year and send them on their way with the righteousness of the odds being stacked against them due to injury concerns or the ravages of time and the most recent performance overshadowed by previous performances.

If someone wants to offer him more than $1 million and a chance to play meaningful games in September, with what he has done the last few years, my reply to him is good luck. If the Diamondbacks want to offer him $2 million and a guaranteed big league slot and he wants to take it, then best wishes. He isn’t worth a guaranteed big league contract to these White Sox. The option to send him to the minors to start the year is quite important to this roster the way it’s set up.

And comparing him to Rodon makes me physically recoil. Rodon was a young player who finally broke out after a series of injuries, with every stat saying he was excellent but wore out after 120 innings. If he could stay healthy he looked like an ace, performance wasn’t the question. Andrus is a veteran who had a 2 month stretch of extra home runs, without any support from higher exit velocities or anything else measureable, in fact many of his stats trended the wrong way when he got to Chicago, he hit a couple extra homers, with HR rates that rivaled the best HR hitters in the league for two months and way above his career numbers. Hugely important, was the difference between the White Sox winning 70 some games and being .500, but I will bet a lot he can’t keep up that Hr pace next year.

[Chicago White Sox]

13 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

I just think that the Sox will get more out of a Duvall-type (especially in the power dept) than they will out of Andrus, and I think it’s fair to assume that the budget likely only supports one or the other (if it supports adding anyone at all). 

Exactly.  Our 4th OF could easily start 100 games next year.  And as currently constructed, that’s going to mean a lot of Sheets in the corners and a lot of Colas or Leury in CF.  IMO, we aren’t serious about competing if we don’t acquire a legit 4th OF who can play all three positions capably and hit enough to play in a semi regular role.  Duvall just makes too much sense and I’d 100% prioritize him over a guy like Andrus at 2B.

[RibbieRubarb]

14 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Afraid to speak? 

Jesus, for a guy whose feelings get hurt anytime someone doesn't agree with him, you sure need to quickly resort to insults to make up for a lack of substance.   If you want this kind of a discussion I will give it to you.  But don't start crying again when I give you what you keep trying to start.

I don't know why you have a complete lack of ability to read, but I did very clearly explain why using seasonal fWAR accrued as a starter at SS, compared to 2B which doesn't get the same positional bonus adjustments, AND  compared to someone who wasn't starting over those same 5 years instead of neutralizing their positional differences and looking at their offensive lines which are both trash over the same period of time, as I also clearly stated.

If you took 2 seconds to look, you would see me very clearly saying this to show not that Leury is good, but that Andrus has been a trash player for half a decade now, just like Leury Garcia, by calling them both trash. Signing Andrus us signing another Leury.

Now if you want to pay attention and actually have a decent conversation, we can. if not, I can drop down to your level.

Get over your damned feelings and try to keep up.

[Good Guys]

With limited second base free agent options available, I think Andrus would be one of the better options to start the season.  He can cover short if an injury were to occur and he carried the Sox offense for a stretch last season.  The only free agent option I would prefer at second over Andrus would be Profar.  Just because he is younger with possibly more upside and can also cover in right.  

[Dick Allen]

Too much Elvis Kool aide here. 74 wRC+ from 2018-2021. Little chance he replicates his lin drive rate he had with the Sox which was over double his career rate and 20% of his flyballs were going over the wall. This is almost guaranteed to regress to the mean. And someone is going to have to pay at least a little bit more based on his 2022 numbers. If he would take total peanuts with incentives,  fine, but chances are he would be no better just more expensive than the in house options. 

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Too much Elvis Kool aide here. 74 wRC+ from 2018-2021. Little chance he replicates his lin drive rate he had with the Sox which was over double his career rate and 20% of his flyballs were going over the wall. This is almost guaranteed to regress to the mean. And someone is going to have to pay at least a little bit more based on his 2022 numbers. If he would take total peanuts with incentives,  fine, but chances are he would be no better just more expensive than the in house options. 

Yeah, if he was going to be paid very little, then maybe. He would have to agree to a bench role though. It would be nice to have insurance at SS for when TA gets hurt.

[ChiSox59]

Cheap 1 year deal in March if nothing else materializes? Sure. Any sort of real guarantee right now? Nah. Try to do better; he’s not very good and has never play 2B. 

But I’ve been on record and remain convinced that just handing Romy/Sosa the job and relying on Leury to play a few days a week there is silly. You need to bring in some level of competition for the kids and make them earn that job, while also hoping they do. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

16 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

He’s not carrying water for Leury… he’s showing how both equally suck lol

well sure is you think 3.5 fWar is equally sucking to a -1.1 fWar. I don't care how far you go back or go into the future Leury could never do that. He'll be out of baseball when he's 34.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Good Guys said:

With limited second base free agent options available, I think Andrus would be one of the better options to start the season.  He can cover short if an injury were to occur and he carried the Sox offense for a stretch last season.  The only free agent option I would prefer at second over Andrus would be Profar.  Just because he is younger with possibly more upside and can also cover in right.  

definitely more offensive upside but he's basically a LF now and not good at any other positions defensively.

[pcq]

Elvis is not coming on a minors deal. 

[greg775]

18 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Here is the list of positions I have come up with where I feel the White Sox have sufficient depth to get through a season with no problems.

1. People named Reinsdorf.
2. The Grounds Crew. Thanks to Roger Bossard. 

Right now I don't think they even have enough marketing people, they definitely don't have enough radio and TV people under contract, I'm not sure they have enough vendors considering they picketed the bloody stadium at the end of the season, and there's literally no position on the diamond where I would say "They have enough depth that they won't have any issue during this season."

So, would Elvis Andrus make sense for this team receiving an invitation to spring training? Absolutely. If they were to sign him, I would go so far as to say that between the injury histories of Moncada and Anderson, Leury's performance and injury history, and the inexperience of Sosa and Romy, there would be a high likelihood that he would make the team out of spring training. If he didn't' make the roster out of spring training we would probably need him for something by the end of May, and right now they have no one they could call up who could fill that kind of role. They would wind up calling up Burger and playing Leury or Romy full time at 2b or SS if someone struggled or got hurt, which is just a mess. The White Sox would be better with Elvis Andrus as an additional option than they are right now. 

Elvis Andrus is not a starting player on anything other than a bottom of the league team. He is a guy who can be slightly above replacement level, we shouldn't count on anything more than that. But, the White Sox right now don't have replacement level infielders in their organization if anyone gets hurt or if anyone (including Leury, who was awful and who had a back injury last year) struggles again this year. 

Now here's the problem. If Andrus was on this roster as a spring training invite, and the setup was for him to come up once someone had a chance to struggle through April or once someone got hurt, and he was in a spot where he might receive 200 plate appearances and play 50 games...that's not a terrible plan for $1 million. However, the question is whether we could limit him to that role. If Tony LaRussa was the manager, I would have to say "No you cannot sign him. If you sign him, he will receive 600 plate appearances regardless of how bad he is. It will not matter if a rookie can outperform him, he will get preference because he's a veteran."

Can Pedro Grifol manage a veteran and 2 rookies at infield positions? I don't know. I don't have a lot of confidence that they won't screw it up, but if they could do it correctly, having him in the organization could make them better overall. 

It is also possible that someone could give an Elvis Andrus type player a big league contract. There are bad teams in the league, he could potentially start for one of them right now. The White sox should not offer Andrus that kind of deal, and if he would prefer that to a minor league deal with a team that has an outside chance of competing, then that's his business, find someone else who can fill that role. 

All makes sense while giving a reasonable outlook/tone about this team/franchise.

Edited January 2, 2023 by greg775

[Tnetennba]

4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Cheap 1 year deal in March if nothing else materializes? Sure. Any sort of real guarantee right now? Nah. Try to do better; he’s not very good and has never play 2B. 

But I’ve been on record and remain convinced that just handing Romy/Sosa the job and relying on Leury to play a few days a week there is silly. You need to bring in some level of competition for the kids and make them earn that job, while also hoping they do. 

This.  Elvis at 2B should be the absolute last resort, period, end of story. 

[Buehrle>Wood]

5 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

This.  Elvis at 2B should be the absolute last resort, period, end of story. 

We're at the last resort stage for finding a 2B is you haven't noticed.

[Tnetennba]

1 minute ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

We're at the last resort stage for finding a 2B is you haven't noticed.

While that may be true, you don’t give him a guaranteed deal in January.  If someone else does it’s no big deal, and not worth making a commitment now. 

[WBWSF]

AJ Pollock declined his White Sox option. I can't help but wonder if anybody will even sign him. And if somebody does sign him, I wonder if he's going  to  make any big money. I think he turned down $11 million from the White Sox. 

[ChiSox59]

6 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

AJ Pollock declined his White Sox option. I can't help but wonder if anybody will even sign him. And if somebody does sign him, I wonder if he's going  to  make any big money. I think he turned down $11 million from the White Sox. 

He turned down $13M in exchange for $5M buyout. So he has to get $8M guaranteed to breakeven. He’s almost certain to take a pay cut. Thanks to AJ Pollock. 

[EloyJenkins]

Elvis will be the twins starting SS...and help them be awful....and we all rejoice

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

15 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

He turned down $13M in exchange for $5M buyout. So he has to get $8M guaranteed to breakeven. He’s almost certain to take a pay cut. Thanks to AJ Pollock. 

I think he will get at or above the 8 million.

[southsider2k5]

For the record, SS gets a +7.5 dWAR adjustment, while 2B gets 2.5.  So to be very clear, there is a HUGE defensive advantage that Elvis Andrus has had for 5 years in the fWAR component which he would lose if he comes to play 2B. 

https://library.fangraphs.com/misc/war/positional-adjustment/

[Tnetennba]

19 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

I think he will get at or above the 8 million.

I’d be really shocked if he did.  I don’t know who is handing him a starting spot let alone $8M.  He might be able to cover CF if you squint, but he doesn’t offer much versatility as a backup either. 

[Bob Sacamano]

8 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I’d be really shocked if he did.  I don’t know who is handing him a starting spot let alone $8M.  He might be able to cover CF if you squint, but he doesn’t offer much versatility as a backup either. 

Yeah, I was starting to think I would be ok if they somehow brought him back cheaper but then remembered he really couldn't play RF. They need a 4th of who can play all 3 spots.

[ChiSox59]

34 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

I think he will get at or above the 8 million.

I don't, but it will be close.  He's a wealthy enough man that losing $1M or so in potential earnings probably doesn't impact his life in any way.  

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

23 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I’d be really shocked if he did.  I don’t know who is handing him a starting spot let alone $8M.  He might be able to cover CF if you squint, but he doesn’t offer much versatility as a backup either. 

Most of us are willing to give Duvall 8 million to come be a backup.  Someone will feel the same about Pollack.  I'd predict we'd also want Pollack for 8 million had he not been with us this year and had the same year.