The 2nd base answer is in Miami

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

32 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

1.9 and 2.6 fwar.  Better be sure he's going to be an elite player?
We have 3 or so well-regarded prospects as well. 

I think he can be elite. That 2.6 came in only 60 games and he could've been playing with a torn menicus AND a stress fracture in his back.

If you are going to get him the time might be now before he actually puts up a 4-7 War season. After all if he becomes as injury laden as Eloy and Robert have been, that's very devastating when your top talent can never show it. It's hard to even imagine the Sox having a healthy Robert and Eloy in the same season and what that might've meant to the 2021 and 2022 White Sox.

He's got all the tools, Speed, defense, power, LH. The only knocks on him is his arm, injuries and swagger ( if that's even a problem). I do think he has to tone down his act a little but only with umps. Stay on their good side.

Shake up the team . Make a blockbuster for him and Pablo Lopez. Montgomery, Moncada ( plus pay part of his salary) Kopech and how ever many other spare parts you need to throw in among Romy, Sheets, Burger , Crochet, Sosa, Cespedes, Popeye, Vera, etc. even some of the guys who had good DSL seasons, seven or 8 guys for those 2.

Marlins have pitching but they need hitters. The question is do they feel they can compete with their pitching staff and would they want MLB talent, close to MLB talent, or a mix.

[GreenSox]

15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No, it's certainly not guaranteed that he's going to be an elite player.

But an average starter (2 win player) with 4 years of control including a pre arbitration year, who could also still have some ceiling? That's seriously expensive. That's what I was referring to when I said you're "paying for control" earlier. The price in a trade is through the roof!

Yes it is expensive.   And higher for us because of opportunity cost as we have fewer good prospects than most teams.   Pay that price for a position where we have good young prospects?
We've picked up  young and compelling pre-arb players before without paying that price (Quentin, Eaton).  We've also paid that sort of price for players who were less than exemplary (Frazier, Samardzija).

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Yes it is expensive.   And higher for us because of opportunity cost as we have fewer good prospects than most teams.   Pay that price for a position where we have good young prospects?
We've picked up  young and compelling pre-arb players before without paying that price (Quentin, Eaton).  We've also paid that sort of price for players who were less than exemplary (Frazier, Samardzija).

No, I don't think it's a good idea for the White Sox to be giving up the little talent they have for a guy like this. My preference all offseason has been "assume that the White Sox have a low chance to make the playoffs this year, fill holes as practical, but play the long game overall - don't add long term payroll (they did) and don't trade away the guys they have control over (they have not yet done so). 

[GreenSox]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

No, I don't think it's a good idea for the White Sox to be giving up the little talent they have for a guy like this. 

Completely agree.

Trading away young talent is not something that the White Sox do well anyway.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No, I don't think it's a good idea for the White Sox to be giving up the little talent they have for a guy like this. My preference all offseason has been "assume that the White Sox have a low chance to make the playoffs this year, fill holes as practical, but play the long game overall - don't add long term payroll (they did) and don't trade away the guys they have control over (they have not yet done so). 

Still don't get why they can't play the short and the long game.

Unlike many here you don't think the Sox can make the playoffs in 2023. Many also think it might be our last chance for a long time to be in the playoffs because the minors is so bereft of talent and because of the starting pitching we are likely to lose after 2023. Since when has the long game worked for the Sox ? I don't see how they will have more talent in the 5 years following 2023 than they do now.

We don't even have a clue how the long game would proceed since JR might not be around for any long game.

[GreenSox]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Still don't get why they can't play the short and the long game.

Unlike many here you don't think the Sox can make the playoffs in 2023. Many also think it might be our last chance for a long time to be in the playoffs because the minors is so bereft of talent and because of the starting pitching we are likely to lose after 2023. Since when has the long game worked for the Sox ? I don't see how they will have more talent in the 5 years following 2023 than they do now.

We don't even have a clue how the long game would proceed since JR might not be around for any long game.

Does the FO have the chops for the short and long game?
The long-game worked for 2020 and 2021 and 2000 and 1993.  The short-game has never worked - ever in 50 years - as best I can remember.  And the last time they played the short game (beyond a single trade here or there) , they did it with such incompetence that it caused the need to rebuild.  
Re the Sox prospects, we don't have a lot of them; but over the past 10 years, they have drafted and/or developed more players than the farm rankings suggested that they would.  I suspect a lot of our top 10 are better than advertised.  
Anyway, use FA for the short-game.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by GreenSox

[Jerksticks]

14 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Does the FO have the chops for the short and long game?
The long-game worked for 2020 and 2021 and 2000 and 1993.  The short-game has never worked - ever in 50 years - as best I can remember.  And the last time they played the short game (beyond a single trade here or there) , they did it with such incompetence that it caused the need to rebuild.  
Re the Sox prospects, we don't have a lot of them; but over the past 10 years, they have drafted and/or developed more players than the farm rankings suggested that they would.  I suspect a lot of our top 10 are better than advertised.  
Anyway, use FA for the short-game.

 

I thought it was going to happen last year but this year we find out we have a Badass farm beyond Colson and Corlas

[AJ'S Cousin]

11 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

ouch I am hurt. I have always said I would love to upgrade 2B with a legit solution. Just completely opposed to an Andrus/Harrison or another re-tread guy when we clearly have monetary constraints and a few young guys who can fill in like just as well as those retreads.

I agree with what you're saying and I'm also opposed to a retread guy also, but the pickings are slim, but I don't consider Chaz a retread if you look at his numbers, they're pretty good. Now we'll never get him because of what they'll ask for, which will probably be too much and JR/KW/RH will not bend. and don't be hurt, i wasn't hurt when you critized me about my posts. We're here to have fun. Here is his past couple of years and he's only 24. the stats below will be the reason the price will be to high, but i think it would be great. Losing Hendriks for possibly the entire year has now limited what we could give up. 

 

Year	Age	Tm	Lg	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB	Pos	Awards
2020	22	MIA	NL	21	62	56	8	9	1	1	2	6	2	2	5	19	.161	.242	.321	.563	51	18	0	1	0	0	0	4/6H
2021	23	MIA	NL	124	507	464	70	115	20	4	18	53	23	8	34	145	.248	.303	.425	.728	95	197	3	4	2	3	0	46/H
2022	24	MIA	NL	60	241	213	39	54	10	4	14	45	12	5	21	66	.254	.325	.535	.860	139	114	0	3	0	3	0	4/H	AS
3 Yrs				205	810	733	117	178	31	9	34	104	37

 

[SoCalChiSox]

It would have to be a 3 team trade sending TA to a prospect rich team, prospects from there to MIA, Jazz to CHW and we'd have to throw in something extra to balance it out since there's 4 cost controlled years of Jazz and only 2 for TA.

Something like....

To LAD: TA

To MIA: LAD prospects plus someone like Vera and either Sosa or Rodriguez

To CHW: Jazz

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, GreenSox said:

Does the FO have the chops for the short and long game?
The long-game worked for 2020 and 2021 and 2000 and 1993.  The short-game has never worked - ever in 50 years - as best I can remember.  And the last time they played the short game (beyond a single trade here or there) , they did it with such incompetence that it caused the need to rebuild.  
Re the Sox prospects, we don't have a lot of them; but over the past 10 years, they have drafted and/or developed more players than the farm rankings suggested that they would.  I suspect a lot of our top 10 are better than advertised.  
Anyway, use FA for the short-game.

 

Any time we talk about doing anything it's always the FO sucks. Do you trust them to rebuild since they screwed up the 1st one? Do you trust them to trade for veterans . No. Do you trust them to trade the small amount of prospects we have  ? Umm no . That's why we are playing GM. But you can't give up on 2023, the money's committed in it's limited way.  The Sox seem pretty stuck unless they can find a taker for Grandal or Moncada. Without Liam it might be over before it's begun

They did use FA for the short term but they shot their wad on Benintendi and Clevinger.

I don't see a way out for them to fill remaining holes. FA's cost money and guys in trade have salaries not likely to be offset by anyone we give up.

Right now it's Sosa, Romy, Marisnick . Things got ugly for the Sox before the season even started . With Miami wanting hitting for Pablo Lopez I see almost no scenario that entices the Marlins to part with Chisholm.

Right now the Sox are trying to create depth through NRI guys hoping that some stick around in AAA while others may walk after a certain amount of time.

 

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, SoCalChiSox said:

It would have to be a 3 team trade sending TA to a prospect rich team, prospects from there to MIA, Jazz to CHW and we'd have to throw in something extra to balance it out since there's 4 cost controlled years of Jazz and only 2 for TA.

Something like....

To LAD: TA

To MIA: LAD prospects plus someone like Vera and either Sosa or Rodriguez

To CHW: Jazz

Woof what’s the point if you’re moving TA

[Quin]

1 hour ago, SoCalChiSox said:

It would have to be a 3 team trade sending TA to a prospect rich team, prospects from there to MIA, Jazz to CHW and we'd have to throw in something extra to balance it out since there's 4 cost controlled years of Jazz and only 2 for TA.

Something like....

To LAD: TA

To MIA: LAD prospects plus someone like Vera and either Sosa or Rodriguez

To CHW: Jazz

Bro what.

Jazz stopped making sense the moment Abreu signed with the Astros, because Vaughn or Eloy would have been part of a deal (either Vaughn to Miami or Eloy in a three team deal).

[SoCalChiSox]

12 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Woof what’s the point if you’re moving TA

Point is TA is an expiring asset so we should get some value from him and some have suggested that he's persona non grata with the FO anyway. 

[SoCalChiSox]

6 minutes ago, Quin said:

Bro what.

Jazz stopped making sense the moment Abreu signed with the Astros, because Vaughn or Eloy would have been part of a deal (either Vaughn to Miami or Eloy in a three team deal).

If it's not TA, I would be ok if Vaughn was the main piece of a Jazz deal. I would prefer TA tho because we have Vaughn for 4 years but if push comes to shove and Miami wants Vaughn as the key piece I would do it. 

After all, LH 2B > RH 1B. 

We haven't exactly had a problem finding good RH 1B in the last 30+ years and unlike a savage LH 2B, good RH 1B more or less grow on trees.

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, SoCalChiSox said:

If it's not TA, I would be ok if Vaughn was the main piece of a Jazz deal. I would prefer TA tho because we have Vaughn for 4 years but if push comes to shove and Miami wants Vaughn as the key piece I would do it. 

After all, LH 2B > RH 1B. 

We haven't exactly had a problem finding good RH 1B in the last 30+ years and unlike a savage LH 2B, good RH 1B more or less grow on trees.

Better pray Sheets worked his ass off all winter, otherwise 1B will be really ugly this year. 

[ChiSox59]

11 hours ago, SoCalChiSox said:

Point is TA is an expiring asset so we should get some value from him and some have suggested that he's persona non grata with the FO anyway. 

If you're going to trade TA, you should trade him for a prospect haul and tear it all down, which obviously isn't the plan after signing Benintendi. 

Flipping TA+ for Jazz makes this team worse.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

14 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

If you're going to trade TA, you should trade him for a prospect haul and tear it all down, which obviously isn't the plan after signing Benintendi. 

Flipping TA+ for Jazz makes this team worse.  

So you're saying TA will have a better year than Chisholm ? Or is it SS is more important. TA wasn't missed when Andrus stepped in . Straight up trade I think most of the board takes Jazz just for his cheap years and longer term usage. It would be so lopsided there's no way Marlins would take TA for Jazz.

 

[SoCalChiSox]

18 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

If you're going to trade TA, you should trade him for a prospect haul and tear it all down, which obviously isn't the plan after signing Benintendi. 

Flipping TA+ for Jazz makes this team worse.  

Jazz is projected for slightly higher WAR than TA and he destroys RHP (wrc+ 158). He's also cost controlled for 4 years. 

This isn't a teardown. It's addressing multiple major needs at once (long term 2B and extreme savagery vs RHP) and TAs replacement should be ready in 24. 

It's just a better allocation of resources.

[SoCalChiSox]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So you're saying TA will have a better year than Chisholm ? Or is it SS is more important. TA wasn't missed when Andrus stepped in . Straight up trade I think most of the board takes Jazz just for his cheap years and longer term usage. It would be so lopsided there's no way Marlins would take TA for Jazz.

 

Yeah that's why we need to throw something else in or involve a prospect rich 3rd team. 

Send TA to LAD, send a couple Top 100 LAD prospects to MIA (Busch and another top 100) and we prolly can also send them Sosa or Rodriguez plus a pitching prospects.

[Bob Sacamano]

Why would Marlins trade 4 years of Jazz for TA?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

Yeah that's why we need to throw something else in or involve a prospect rich 3rd team. 

Send TA to LAD, send a couple Top 100 LAD prospects to MIA (Busch and another top 100) and we prolly can also send them Sosa or Rodriguez plus a pitching prospects.

TBH I don't think Jazz is available. Marlins want hitting. Trading a possible 5 War player doesn't help them.

I just thought it odd that adding Jazz and removing TA somehow makes the Sox worse in a one to one scenario .

[ChiSox59]

17 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So you're saying TA will have a better year than Chisholm ? Or is it SS is more important. TA wasn't missed when Andrus stepped in . Straight up trade I think most of the board takes Jazz just for his cheap years and longer term usage. It would be so lopsided there's no way Marlins would take TA for Jazz.

 

Yes, I think TA will be better than Chisholm the next 2 years.  This proposed trade just shifts the hole in the infield from 2B to SS.  Doesn't make any sense to me.

I'd love to acquire Jazz, but for it to make sense, you'd need it to be for prospects, not TA or AV....in my opinion. 

[ChiSox59]

9 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Why would Marlins trade 4 years of Jazz for TA?

They wouldn't.  But that's not really the deal that was being discussed.  

13 hours ago, SoCalChiSox said:

Something like....

To LAD: TA

To MIA: LAD prospects plus someone like Vera and either Sosa or Rodriguez

To CHW: Jazz

 

[pcq]

18 hours ago, GreenSox said:

Completely agree.

Trading away young talent is not something that the White Sox do well anyway.

Sox have soxcelled at giving away some pretty good talent. If you rounded them up you would have a playoff team. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

34 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

Jazz is projected for slightly higher WAR than TA and he destroys RHP (wrc+ 158). He's also cost controlled for 4 years. 

This isn't a teardown. It's addressing multiple major needs at once (long term 2B and extreme savagery vs RHP) and TAs replacement should be ready in 24. 

It's just a better allocation of resources.

I understand where you're coming from but if you are talking about Montgomery being ready in 24 that's putting an awful lot of faith and a guy who hasn't had a full season in Birmingham yet. Hes still got 2 levels of the minors to go. Unless he slays AA and gets promoted to Charlotte and also slays there for a another 50 games I'm having trouble buying into that timeline when he'll be only 22.