The problem with the White Sox is not 2B and RF, it's their "superstars."

[VAfan]

James Fegan's article over on the Athletic with his first take on the roster led to a lot of comments wailing about the Sox' inability to fill the RF and 2B slots with above average major leaguers. That's not the Sox' main problem.

Here's the problem.  This list is not any ranked order. 

1. Tim Anderson, 79 games, .686 OPS against RHP

2. Yasmani Grandal, 99 games, 64 OPS+

3. Luis Robert, 98 games, .702 OPS against RHP

4. Yoan Moncada, 104 games, 76 OPS+

5. Eloy Jimenez, 84 games. 

6. Lucas Giolito, 4.90 ERA over 161.2 innings.  82 ERA+

7. Michael Kopech, 119.1 innings. 

8. Lance Lynn, 121.2 innings, 99 ERA+

9. No more Jose Abreu, who played 157 games at 133 OPS+ 

The core of the White Sox cannot stay healthy, and even when they are in the game, do not produce at superior levels.  Only Eloy Jimenez produced an OPS+ above 110.  

Meanwhile, the starting staff had Dylan Cease and Johnny Cueto pitching when called upon at superior levels.  Kopech didn't get to 120 innings, and Lance Lynn and Lucas Giolito were sub par starters. 

They are also a bad fielding club, though taking Vaughn and Sheets and Jimenez out of the outfield should help. 

For the Sox to contend for anything, these 8 players all need to stay healthy and produce at superior levels. 

If they do, it won't really matter who plays 2b and RF, because they can carry a couple of weaker spots in the lineup.

If they don't, it won't really matter who plays 2b and RF, because those positions cannot makeup for failures from the core of the team. 

 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

100%. Our problem largest problem is health

[ChiSox59]

The 2023 is calculus is simply.

Eloy, TA and Robert play 140+ games and Cease, Lynn and Gio makes 25+ starts, White Sox win division.  Probably handily.

Minor bouncebacks from Moncada and Grandal would also be welcomed. 

But if Eloy, TA and Robert miss large chunks of 2023, its going to be a dog fight to stay in the race. 

[GREEDY]

You aren't wrong but what do you want people to discuss?

Once it was clear that the front office wasn't tearing this down, it goes without saying that the season rests on the core playing more and improving.

You want everyone here (and our beat writers) to just log on everyday and post that we hope Robert stays healthy and takes a step forward?  No, people are going to talk about the stuff the front office can do to improve the club.  

 

 

[FT35]

This might be why the front office focused more on coaching than anything else this off-season.

[Tnetennba]

A healthy org could work to fix what is wrong with the regulars *and* fill both 2B and RF with competent major leaguers.  It doesn't have to be either or.  It shouldn't be a tall task to fill the two gigantic holes in the lineup while also addressing the major ills of last season.

[LittleHurtCG]

The problem is that outside of Cease none of the "core" guys are elite at anything. Moncada is nowhere close to the "young Robinson Cano" that Sox nation was promised he would be 6 years ago. Luis Robert is nowhere close to the "latin Mike Trout" that some hyperbolic people said he would be. Eloy has shown some flashes at the damage he can do with the bat but he is also a clumsy tin man that is higly unlikely to ever put up a 5 WAR season. 

[Chick Mercedes]

Which is why we worry about 2B and RF. I disagree they would not help. The big guys could make it not matter at all, true. But there are various shades of grey and context here.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Chick Mercedes

[Lip Man 1]

5 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

A healthy org could work to fix what is wrong with the regulars *and* fill both 2B and RF with competent major leaguers.  It doesn't have to be either or.  It shouldn't be a tall task to fill the two gigantic holes in the lineup while also addressing the major ills of last season.

It is when the organization has a self-imposed payroll limit and is more concerned with fiscal responsibility than winning.

[Chick Mercedes]

The prob

10 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

It is when the organization has a self-imposed payroll limit and is more concerned with fiscal responsibility than winning.

Problem is the Sox aren't trying. I have a suspicion, just a suspicion, that if they believed the team could really win big, they might actually try harder. Their approach may be a tell on what their opinion of the team really is. This is possibly the transition year until they clear the decks a little and reload after with whatever next wave they can come up with.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

The prob

Problem is the Sox aren't trying. I have a suspicion, just a suspicion, that if they believed the team could really win big, they might actually try harder. Their approach may be a tell on what their opinion of the team really is. This is possibly the transition year until they clear the decks a little and reload after with whatever next wave they can come up with.

Problem with that strategy is that clearing the decks and trying to reload is an absolute mess next year. Worse than this year.

Next year they have several guys with still increasing contracts (Moncada, Anderson, Eloy, Robert), they cost more for the same amount. Vaughn is arb-1, Kopech and Cease are Arb-2, so just holding those guys and treading water costs what, $20 million, $30 million more? On top of that, they offloaded money from Clevinger and Benintendi into next year and the following years.

They do get out of some deals that have stank this year...Kelly, Grandal are done.

But...they basically lose the majority of a pitching staff! Giolito, Clevinger, Lynn are all free agents - Lynn does have an option, but it's an expensive one ($18 million). If they pick up the option on Lynn, they are probably looking at a payroll going into free agency of $160+ million - exactly where they were this year! Except now they've lost Lopez from the bullpen, Clevinger and Giolito at minimum from the rotation. This year they went into free agency with 4 starters plus Martin, next year they're looking at 3 starters plus Martin, maybe even 2 starters plus Martin if Lynn isn't worth picking up.

Imagine having $35 million to spend and needing 3 starters and a key setup man, when setup men like Lopez are getting $10 million a year and good starters are getting $25 million a year? Imagine having $15 million to spend again and having to find 2 starters and having lost your best setup man, plus a bench on top of that?

It becomes difficult to get around having to "Trade Anderson for savings and play the rookie" in almost any version of this I see, especially now that it will be harder to justify moving Hendriks for savings. 

[Jack Parkman]

This has been obvious since June of 2021. 

The core isn't good enough. All 2022 and 2023 are doing is wasting time and team control and delaying the inevitable. 

They missed on the players. Not enough high end talent. It happens, time to tear it down and try again. 

I don't think these guys are ever going both stay healthy and put it together for a whole season. It will always be some combination of injuries and underperformance. I hope they're mediocre enough this year that they pull the band aid off in July. 

There was never any window. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Jack Parkman

[pcq]

Our sleepy-headed slacker Sox are built for exhibition not competition. Jose got tired of them. 

[Jose Abreu]

12 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

This has been obvious since June of 2021. 

The core isn't good enough. All 2022 and 2023 are doing is wasting time and team control and delaying the inevitable. 

Isn't June of 2021 when the team was 43-25 (the best record in baseball) and all the (healthy) core players were having good to great seasons?

[Quin]

10 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Isn't June of 2021 when the team was 43-25 (the best record in baseball) and all the (healthy) core players were having good to great seasons?

Shhh it was obvious. Ignore the 4 All-Stars they had a month later.

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Quin said:

Shhh it was obvious. Ignore the 4 All-Stars they had a month later.

Go look at the receipts. 

[Jack Parkman]

24 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Isn't June of 2021 when the team was 43-25 (the best record in baseball) and all the (healthy) core players were having good to great seasons?

Yes. And it was still blatantly obvious that Houston was on another planet. 

In 2021 the players all had good years and even Eloy/Robert were productive after their injuries. They still got pantsed by the Astros and it wasn't particularly close. 

As many players put it all together that year as you could possibly expect and they still failed. 

2021 was the peak for this group and they couldn't win a round in the playoffs. 

If it wasn't obvious there was no window in June, then it damn sure was in October. 

I said it last winter, there was no realistic path to contention for the Sox without Jerry pulling a Cohen. And there is more of a chance of me both winning the powerball and getting struck by lightning on the way to turn in the ticket. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Jack Parkman

[Quin]

28 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Go look at the receipts. 

If you say it's going to rain every day, eventually it will rain.

[Eminor3rd]

Good front offices never stop finding ways to improve, add depth, and insulate against unexpected poor health and underperformance.

Shrugging your shoulders and saying “Well they just didn’t play like they should have,” or, “well if they just would have stayed healthy” is indicative of a loser’s mentality. You’re either doing everything you can to win, or you’re just not. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Eminor3rd

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Good front offices never stop finding ways to improve, add depth, and insulate against unexpected poor health and underperformance.

Shrugging your shoulders and saying “Well they just didn’t play like they should have,” or, “well if they just would have stayed healthy” is indicative of a loser’s mentality. You’re either doing everything you can to win, or you’re just not. 

This is why I’ve been so frustrated this off-season.  I think any diehard Sox fan realizes Tony (& Menechino) fucked this team over immensely and that we should see unprecedented improvement from some of our core guys.  That being said, this has been a team with holes & lacking depth for many years and Hahn continues to ignore obvious areas for enhancement.  Even with organic improvement and better health, we are still likely behind the AL’s best teams.

When the rebuild started, I honestly thought we’d see some of that old school KW killer instinct from Rick to push us over the top, but he’s been incredibly passive overall.  Part of that is due to his failures building a sustainable farm system, but he could have easily add some depth this offseason without tapping into his two or three top 100 prospects.  Just frustrating to see our competitive window coming to an end without the organization pushing hard for a championship.

[Lip Man 1]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This is why I’ve been so frustrated this off-season.  I think any diehard Sox fan realizes Tony (& Menechino) fucked this team over immensely and that we should see unprecedented improvement from some of our core guys.  That being said, this has been a team with holes & lacking depth for many years and Hahn continues to ignore obvious areas for enhancement.  Even with organic improvement and better health, we are still likely behind the AL’s best teams.

When the rebuild started, I honestly thought we’d see some of that old school KW killer instinct from Rick to push us over the top, but he’s been incredibly passive overall.  Part of that is due to his failures building a sustainable farm system, but he could have easily add some depth this offseason without tapping into his two or three top 100 prospects.  Just frustrating to see our competitive window coming to an end without the organization pushing hard for a championship.

It all starts with ownership. ?

[Chick Mercedes]

1 hour ago, Jose Abreu said:

Isn't June of 2021 when the team was 43-25 (the best record in baseball) and all the (healthy) core players were having good to great seasons?

Mercedes!

[Eminor3rd]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Problem with that strategy is that clearing the decks and trying to reload is an absolute mess next year. Worse than this year.

Next year they have several guys with still increasing contracts (Moncada, Anderson, Eloy, Robert), they cost more for the same amount. Vaughn is arb-1, Kopech and Cease are Arb-2, so just holding those guys and treading water costs what, $20 million, $30 million more? On top of that, they offloaded money from Clevinger and Benintendi into next year and the following years.

They do get out of some deals that have stank this year...Kelly, Grandal are done.

But...they basically lose the majority of a pitching staff! Giolito, Clevinger, Lynn are all free agents - Lynn does have an option, but it's an expensive one ($18 million). If they pick up the option on Lynn, they are probably looking at a payroll going into free agency of $160+ million - exactly where they were this year! Except now they've lost Lopez from the bullpen, Clevinger and Giolito at minimum from the rotation. This year they went into free agency with 4 starters plus Martin, next year they're looking at 3 starters plus Martin, maybe even 2 starters plus Martin if Lynn isn't worth picking up.

Imagine having $35 million to spend and needing 3 starters and a key setup man, when setup men like Lopez are getting $10 million a year and good starters are getting $25 million a year? Imagine having $15 million to spend again and having to find 2 starters and having lost your best setup man, plus a bench on top of that?

It becomes difficult to get around having to "Trade Anderson for savings and play the rookie" in almost any version of this I see, especially now that it will be harder to justify moving Hendriks for savings. 

Right, they're almost forced into a rebuild after this year, regardless of results, because they changed absolutely NOTHING about how they operate from the previous failed "window" -- they developed almost no talent at all (practically the entire core is made up of prospects they traded for), invested in nothing whatsoever into depth or the production thereof, and spent their payroll budget like they have no idea how baseball works.

I mean, it's crazy to think about but, even if they get to the World Series this year, they essentially STILL have to rebuild. Are they going to expand the payroll enough to re-sign their departing pitchers? Not if they actually have good platform seasons. The talk about building a system for "sustainable competitiveness" was either never serious or this is an utterly historic failure. Absolutely unbelievable that leadership hasn't been fired. I mean really insane.

[Jack Parkman]

58 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Right, they're almost forced into a rebuild after this year, regardless of results, because they changed absolutely NOTHING about how they operate from the previous failed "window" -- they developed almost no talent at all (practically the entire core is made up of prospects they traded for), invested in nothing whatsoever into depth or the production thereof, and spent their payroll budget like they have no idea how baseball works.

I mean, it's crazy to think about but, even if they get to the World Series this year, they essentially STILL have to rebuild. Are they going to expand the payroll enough to re-sign their departing pitchers? Not if they actually have good platform seasons. The talk about building a system for "sustainable competitiveness" was either never serious or this is an utterly historic failure. Absolutely unbelievable that leadership hasn't been fired. I mean really insane.

Based on the actions of the FO and ownership they were never serious. 

What Jerry/KW/Hahn have done from 2017-present is just like what the Hawks did in the mid to late 90s. They have pissed off the fanbase to the nth degree. When they trade players next winter the fans will hold a similar grudge that the Hawks fans did to Bill Wirtz. Sox fans are not coming back to the park until there is new ownership. It's already started. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Jack Parkman

[pcq]

Rickety  Hahn knows not what he is doing. Just embrace it.