The problem with the White Sox is not 2B and RF, it's their "superstars."

[kitekrazy]

I don't think there is nothing new under the sun with the gazillion "what's wrong with the White Sox" posts.

Just everything and accept it.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

I don't think there is nothing new under the sun with the gazillion "what's wrong with the White Sox" posts.

Just everything and accept it.

This same poster put together about a dozen threads last year that were equally optimistic. People talked in those too, and some of us felt they were cloyingly positive, there wasn’t anything new in them either, but we kept talking in them. It is particularly interesting how this same poster has been completely broken by the 2022 White Sox.

[Lip Man 1]

I just hope to outlive current ownership and hope for better things down the road.

[greg775]

5 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Right, they're almost forced into a rebuild after this year, regardless of results, because they changed absolutely NOTHING about how they operate from the previous failed "window" -- they developed almost no talent at all (practically the entire core is made up of prospects they traded for), invested in nothing whatsoever into depth or the production thereof, and spent their payroll budget like they have no idea how baseball works.

I mean, it's crazy to think about but, even if they get to the World Series this year, they essentially STILL have to rebuild. Are they going to expand the payroll enough to re-sign their departing pitchers? Not if they actually have good platform seasons. The talk about building a system for "sustainable competitiveness" was either never serious or this is an utterly historic failure. Absolutely unbelievable that leadership hasn't been fired. I mean really insane.

If a rebuild means a tank job, I hope the Sox just move to Vegas. I'll root for the uniform in Vegas but not be a zealot. Trying to lose games during a tank job is against what the spirit of sports is all about. 

[VAfan]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

This same poster put together about a dozen threads last year that were equally optimistic. People talked in those too, and some of us felt they were cloyingly positive, there wasn’t anything new in them either, but we kept talking in them. It is particularly interesting how this same poster has been completely broken by the 2022 White Sox.

Yes, the 2022 White Sox "broke" me. I've been a fan since 1970 - 52 years. I can't recall a team that was as unwatchable as last year's Sox team.  Somehow they finished 81-81. Andrus helped immensely when he came over. But he wasn't part of the hype train that fell completely on their faces. 

The "core" guys should be embarrassed by how bad they were, and how they could not stay healthy.  They chased pitches. Had no strategy. Poor fielding. It was just terrible baseball. 

Obviously there have been much worse Sox teams. But most of those teams weren't expected to be good.  When you are expected to be good, and you suck, that's bad. 

I do think the Pedrol Grifol hire is the best thing the team has done in years.  I don't know if he can keep these guys healthy, but I think he's going to show them what they need to do to succeed.  He may actually wake them up.  

As for filling 2B and RF with veterans, I think that would be a mistake.  This team needs the young energy of guys who are trying to make it in the big leagues.  We have too many guys who think they have already made it and then put up putrid performances. 

Give me Colas for RF over the kind of mediocre veteran the Sox could afford -- like Pollard.   If the rookie outhits Moncada and Grandal, maybe they'll be shamed into working on their own performance instead of just mailing it in. 

At 2B, it's not clear who might emerge among the young guys they have.  I would just cut Leury as dead money.  Give the roster spot to someone like Jake Burger who can actually hit the baseball. And would be another way to put pressure on Moncada.  I still wonder if Burger could play some 2B.  He's got the arm. Would his range be terrible? 

Plus, the Sox are not the Dodgers. They need some minimum salary guys to afford the higher paid players. Where they wasted their money was on guys like Garcia. And Moncada, who has an albatross contract.

[Kyyle23]

3 hours ago, VAfan said:

Yes, the 2022 White Sox "broke" me. I've been a fan since 1970 - 52 years. I can't recall a team that was as unwatchable as last year's Sox team.  Somehow they finished 81-81. Andrus helped immensely when he came over. But he wasn't part of the hype train that fell completely on their faces. 

The "core" guys should be embarrassed by how bad they were, and how they could not stay healthy.  They chased pitches. Had no strategy. Poor fielding. It was just terrible baseball. 

Obviously there have been much worse Sox teams. But most of those teams weren't expected to be good.  When you are expected to be good, and you suck, that's bad. 

I do think the Pedrol Grifol hire is the best thing the team has done in years.  I don't know if he can keep these guys healthy, but I think he's going to show them what they need to do to succeed.  He may actually wake them up.  

As for filling 2B and RF with veterans, I think that would be a mistake.  This team needs the young energy of guys who are trying to make it in the big leagues.  We have too many guys who think they have already made it and then put up putrid performances. 

Give me Colas for RF over the kind of mediocre veteran the Sox could afford -- like Pollard.   If the rookie outhits Moncada and Grandal, maybe they'll be shamed into working on their own performance instead of just mailing it in. 

At 2B, it's not clear who might emerge among the young guys they have.  I would just cut Leury as dead money.  Give the roster spot to someone like Jake Burger who can actually hit the baseball. And would be another way to put pressure on Moncada.  I still wonder if Burger could play some 2B.  He's got the arm. Would his range be terrible? 

Plus, the Sox are not the Dodgers. They need some minimum salary guys to afford the higher paid players. Where they wasted their money was on guys like Garcia. And Moncada, who has an albatross contract.

It’s strange how you started with what you think as rational reasons to not spend on RF and 2B but then immediately fell back into “they aren’t the dodgers”

im not asking them to be the dodgers.  Would I like ridiculous money to spend and a great minors sure but we don’t have the minors part and they impose their own spending restrictions which are stupid and keep them perpetually in this “everything must go absolutely correct this season to win it all” cycle that we all now see as the “plan”.

its fucking bullshit.  Asking them to spend this season on two positions off need -for the last three seasons- should not be too much for this organization.  But here we are convincing ourselves that, yes, actually it’s good to count on a 23 year old player that basically didn’t play for the better part of 2 seasons after he defected from Cuba, and had one good minor league season.  And Sosa and Romy could actually do it, even though we have no actual proof of any of this.

so hey, cross your fingers cross your toes cross whatever you need to.  Make sure the wish is “everything works out totally perfect”

[Snopek]

2 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

It’s strange how you started with what you think as rational reasons to not spend on RF and 2B but then immediately fell back into “they aren’t the dodgers”

im not asking them to be the dodgers.  Would I like ridiculous money to spend and a great minors sure but we don’t have the minors part and they impose their own spending restrictions which are stupid and keep them perpetually in this “everything must go absolutely correct this season to win it all” cycle that we all now see as the “plan”.

its fucking bullshit.  Asking them to spend this season on two positions off need -for the last three seasons- should not be too much for this organization.  But here we are convincing ourselves that, yes, actually it’s good to count on a 23 year old player that basically didn’t play for the better part of 2 seasons after he defected from Cuba, and had one good minor league season.  And Sosa and Romy could actually do it, even though we have no actual proof of any of this.

so hey, cross your fingers cross your toes cross whatever you need to.  Make sure the wish is “everything works out totally perfect”

“Basically stay healthy” has turned into “Basically stay healthy and also everyone perform to their absolute ceiling and oh look a shooting star everyone make a wish”

[Kyyle23]

Just now, Snopek said:

“Basically stay healthy” has turned into “Basically stay healthy and also everyone perform to their absolute ceiling and oh look a shooting star everyone make a wish”

“…and nobody ask us about it”

[ChiSox59]

16 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Problem with that strategy is that clearing the decks and trying to reload is an absolute mess next year. Worse than this year.

Next year they have several guys with still increasing contracts (Moncada, Anderson, Eloy, Robert), they cost more for the same amount. Vaughn is arb-1, Kopech and Cease are Arb-2, so just holding those guys and treading water costs what, $20 million, $30 million more? On top of that, they offloaded money from Clevinger and Benintendi into next year and the following years.

They do get out of some deals that have stank this year...Kelly, Grandal are done.

But...they basically lose the majority of a pitching staff! Giolito, Clevinger, Lynn are all free agents - Lynn does have an option, but it's an expensive one ($18 million). If they pick up the option on Lynn, they are probably looking at a payroll going into free agency of $160+ million - exactly where they were this year! Except now they've lost Lopez from the bullpen, Clevinger and Giolito at minimum from the rotation. This year they went into free agency with 4 starters plus Martin, next year they're looking at 3 starters plus Martin, maybe even 2 starters plus Martin if Lynn isn't worth picking up.

Imagine having $35 million to spend and needing 3 starters and a key setup man, when setup men like Lopez are getting $10 million a year and good starters are getting $25 million a year? Imagine having $15 million to spend again and having to find 2 starters and having lost your best setup man, plus a bench on top of that?

It becomes difficult to get around having to "Trade Anderson for savings and play the rookie" in almost any version of this I see, especially now that it will be harder to justify moving Hendriks for savings. 

Including Lynn, the 2024 payroll is about $164M.  The good news is that the only positions that would need to be filled are 2 SP, maybe a C to pair with Seby/Perez depending how they progress in 23, and perhaps a low end reliever.  The entire position player base sans Grandal, who is clearly a negative asset at this point, returns in 24. Sox obviously aren't going to be in on the top of the market SP, but if you sign a pretty good one to replace Gio for say $15-20M AAV, a stopgap #5 for ~$10M and decent reliever for $5M, they're basically right back to where they were in 22-23 payroll wise and have a full roster.  They don't need to replace a bunch of guys. 

Obviously its essentially running the same squad back yet again, but I don't really see some doomsday scenario.  Perhaps a better showing in 2023 will convince JR to open the purse strings a bit more than he did coming off the brutal 22.  After 2024, 4/5 most expensive deals in Moncada, Lynn, Hendriks and TA are all gone, and the payroll opens up fairly significantly thereafter.   

Sox will certainly be in similar situation after next season to this offseason, but it also just underscores that their hands have been and will continue to be tied contractually without their owner approving significant payroll increases, which I don't think we can expect without a deep playoff run in 23. 

If 23 is another underperforming disaster, I think we can pretty much bank on all the controllable talent beyond 23 getting moved, which could provide a chance for a mini rebuild as it would include some pretty desirable assets on shorter term deals (2 or less) in Cease, Kopech, TA, Eloy, Graveman/Hendriks/Bummer, you could perhaps even look at moving Robert (though I'd continue to hold there).  Rick Hahn & Co definitely don't deserve the ability to undertake that process again, however.  

Edited January 20, 2023 by ChiSox59

[Kyyle23]

And we also convince ourselves that mini rebuilds are obvious and necessary.  s%*# sucks 

[Balta1701]

55 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Including Lynn, the 2024 payroll is about $164M.  The good news is that the only positions that would need to be filled are 2 SP, a C to pair with Seby/Perez, and perhaps a reliever.  The entire position player base sans Grandal, who is clearly a negative asset at this point, returns in 24. Sox obviously aren't going to be in on the top of the market SP, but if you sign a pretty good one to replace Gio for say $15-20M AAV, a stopgap #5 for ~$10M and decent reliever for $5M, they're basically right back to where they were in 22-23 payroll wise and have a full roster.  They don't need to replace a bunch of guys. 

Obviously its essentially running the same squad back yet again, but I don't really see some doomsday scenario.  Perhaps a better showing in 2023 will convince JR to open the purse strings a bit more than he did coming off the brutal 22.  After 2024, 4/5 most expensive deals in Moncada, Lynn, Hendriks and TA are all gone, and the payroll open up fairly significantly thereafter.   

Sox will certainly be in similar situation after next season to this offseason, but it also just underscores that their hands have been and will continue to be tied contractually without their owner approving significant payroll increases, which I don't think we can expect without a deep playoff run in 23. 

If 23 is another underperforming disaster, I think we can pretty much bank on all the controllable talent beyond 23 getting moved, which could provide a chance for a mini rebuild as it would include some pretty desirable assets on shorter term deals (2 or less) in Cease, Kopech, TA, Eloy, Graveman/Hendriks/Bummer, you could perhaps even look at moving Robert (though I'd continue to hold there).  Though Rick Hahn & Co definitely don't deserve the ability to undertake that process again. 

The numbers you just wrote wind up with a $20 million-ish payroll boost for 2024 unless things go terribly for the arb-eligible guys or they cut someone. Cut the salary for each of your pitchers in half. A $7-10 million starter, a stopgap for $5, and a $2.5 million reliever. 

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I'm glad you put the word "superstars" in quotes.  The White Sox do not currently have any true superstars.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

The numbers you just wrote wind up with a $20 million-ish payroll boost for 2024 unless things go terribly for the arb-eligible guys or they cut someone. Cut the salary for each of your pitchers in half. A $7-10 million starter, a stopgap for $5, and a $2.5 million reliever. 

If you want to assume $180M is a hard cap moving forward, sure.  Payroll just last season was ~$195M.  Sox almost certainly will add some $ either before OD, and if not, during the 2023 season.  I don't think assuming a $195-200M payroll in 2024 is outrageous assuming things go decently in 2023. I said myself that if this coming season is another disaster you pretty much have to sell off the good assets after 23, then its all moot anyway. 

I just don't think terming the payroll situation looking forward as "...an absolute mess. Worse than this year" is terribly accurate.   But its all just conjecture and projections at this point. 

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

If you want to assume $180M is a hard cap moving forward, sure.  Payroll just last season was ~$195M.  Sox almost certainly will add some $ either before OD, and if not, during the 2023 season.  I don't think assuming a $195-200M payroll in 2024 is outrageous assuming things go decently in 2023. I said myself that if this coming season is another disaster you pretty much have to sell off the good assets after 23, then its all moot anyway. 

I just don't think terming the payroll situation looking forward as "...an absolute mess. Worse than this year" is terribly accurate.   But its all just conjecture and projections at this point. 

Without a strong playoff run, on paper they have more holes to fill next year with the same amount of money and a roster that is again older. That's the straightforward, obvious end result of this season - unless there's a playoff run. We can absolutely be looking ahead to that possibility and wondering what on Earth they would do. 

[4uckOffCommieScum]

1 hour ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

I'm glad you put the word "superstars" in quotes.  The White Sox do not currently have any true superstars.

What are you talking about? Anderson’s value meal beat Bryce Harper’s just last summer. How soon we forget

[AJ'S Cousin]

I agree we have a bunch of porcelain dolls on this team and if they all can average 120/130 games we’d have a shot. Chaz Chisholm is now available to play 2nd base and if a reasonable deal can be made for him that would only leave RF in which with Chisholm at 2nd, we can have Colas play RF. 

[VAfan]

8 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

It’s strange how you started with what you think as rational reasons to not spend on RF and 2B but then immediately fell back into “they aren’t the dodgers”

im not asking them to be the dodgers.  Would I like ridiculous money to spend and a great minors sure but we don’t have the minors part and they impose their own spending restrictions which are stupid and keep them perpetually in this “everything must go absolutely correct this season to win it all” cycle that we all now see as the “plan”.

its fucking bullshit.  Asking them to spend this season on two positions off need -for the last three seasons- should not be too much for this organization.  But here we are convincing ourselves that, yes, actually it’s good to count on a 23 year old player that basically didn’t play for the better part of 2 seasons after he defected from Cuba, and had one good minor league season.  And Sosa and Romy could actually do it, even though we have no actual proof of any of this.

so hey, cross your fingers cross your toes cross whatever you need to.  Make sure the wish is “everything works out totally perfect”

Young hungry players can often outplay veteran free agents.  AJ Pollack is a perfect example.  I have no doubt that Colas can and will outperform Pollack's 2022 numbers. 

You tell me who the Sox should sign (or should have signed) for 2B and RF this offseason, and how much it would have cost.  Plus, how long would the contract have been for? 

You can't completely fill the team with older free agent vets.  Youth has a lot of value to a team.  Need to sprinkle it in where you can. 

[Kyyle23]

17 minutes ago, VAfan said:

Young hungry players can often outplay veteran free agents.  AJ Pollack is a perfect example.  I have no doubt that Colas can and will outperform Pollack's 2022 numbers. 

You tell me who the Sox should sign (or should have signed) for 2B and RF this offseason, and how much it would have cost.  Plus, how long would the contract have been for? 

You can't completely fill the team with older free agent vets.  Youth has a lot of value to a team.  Need to sprinkle it in where you can. 

We aren’t filling the entire roster, we are talking two positions that have been obvious needs since this “contention window” was officially recognized before 2020.  
 

and the “name me guys and amounts” game is stupid.  We have been bitching on this site every time a player drops off the free agency list.  La Stella Escobar Frazier Nimmo Conforto take your pick.  Our guys aren’t beating them all out.  Will they beat out Pollocks numbers?  If they don’t, then we have two positions yet again punted because yay lets cheap out on two positions of need for the last three seasons.  They have their own young guys sprinkled throughout the lineup, getting a player to play right field that didn’t take the better part of 2 years off of the game shouldn’t be too much 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

20 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This is why I’ve been so frustrated this off-season.  I think any diehard Sox fan realizes Tony (& Menechino) fucked this team over immensely and that we should see unprecedented improvement from some of our core guys.  That being said, this has been a team with holes & lacking depth for many years and Hahn continues to ignore obvious areas for enhancement.  Even with organic improvement and better health, we are still likely behind the AL’s best teams.

When the rebuild started, I honestly thought we’d see some of that old school KW killer instinct from Rick to push us over the top, but he’s been incredibly passive overall.  Part of that is due to his failures building a sustainable farm system, but he could have easily add some depth this offseason without tapping into his two or three top 100 prospects.  Just frustrating to see our competitive window coming to an end without the organization pushing hard for a championship.

When I see a post like this mention names about who failed and don't see the name Reinsdorf , I laugh. He is the root, the rest are branches. He hands are in everything the Sox fail at. Sure Hahn's taken a lot of hits but those hits are build into dealing in a very limited range of what he can do since Jerry is pulling the strings of his puppets. Rinse and repeat !

[JoeC]

5 hours ago, VAfan said:

Young hungry players can often outplay veteran free agents.  AJ Pollack is a perfect example.  I have no doubt that Colas can and will outperform Pollack's 2022 numbers. 

 

Really going out on a limb there, eh?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

Really going out on a limb there, eh?

To be fair there still is a lot of skepticism about Colas being ready since he only had the 1 year in the minors. Not from me of course I love the kid and think he'll do very well offensively and defensively. He's got a real nice arm and base runners will think twice about running on him unlike last year where everyone and their mother ran on Sox OFers. He'll get tested early on that I think and when he guns a few runners down they'll take him seriously.

[Jack Parkman]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:43 AM, Kyyle23 said:

And we also convince ourselves that mini rebuilds are obvious and necessary.  s%*# sucks 

They're only obvious and necessary because of the owner. 

[Tony]

48 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

They're only obvious and necessary because of the owner. 

He is a major part of it, yes.

There are plenty of organizations much more successful than the White Sox that have done it with a much smaller payroll, consistently. I’m not saying there are serious limitations ownership has set on this FO, but let’s not pretend it’s an impossible task to build a winner with a $180 million payroll. It’s done every year. 

[Tnetennba]

3 minutes ago, Tony said:

He is a major part of it, yes.

There are plenty of organizations much more successful than the White Sox that have done it with a much smaller payroll, consistently. I’m not saying there are serious limitations ownership has set on this FO, but let’s not pretend it’s an impossible task to build a winner with a $180 million payroll. It’s done every year. 

There is where Hahn's ineptitude in FA comes in.  Yes he has constraints that keep him from landing top players for top dollars, but it's not like he has to work with a shoestring budget every year.  I still firmly believe that a more competent operation would have a better team on the field for the same total dollars.  Lets not forget how awful Hahn was in FA before the rebuild, and how he took a young cost controlled core and maxed out his budget w/o producing a real winner.

[Tony]

1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

There is where Hahn's ineptitude in FA comes in.  Yes he has constraints that keep him from landing top players for top dollars, but it's not like he has to work with a shoestring budget every year.  I still firmly believe that a more competent operation would have a better team on the field for the same total dollars.  Lets not forget how awful Hahn was in FA before the rebuild, and how he took a young cost controlled core and maxed out his budget w/o producing a real winner.

I understand his approach or thought in knowing he can't spend top dollar for FA's, so he tried to lock up his core to competitive but long term deals before they debuted to have a real "window" to work with. 

But as we know, that core hasn't been able to stay on the field, or produce at a high level. He invested into the wrong horses. That's not a budget issue. That's a talent evaluation issue.