Miami Marlins commence large player exchange with Minnesota Twins. Jasrado Prince Hermis Arrington Chisholm Jr. should be available

[ChiSoxFanMike]

2 minutes ago, ChiSoxTrojan said:

Isn't this the same guy who said like 24 hours ago that the Sox were done making moves?

He’s also the same guy who wanted to DFA Aaron Bummer so his articles mean less than nothing.

[Sleepy Harold]

9 minutes ago, ChiSoxTrojan said:

By default, right? I mean he's obviously behind Chaz Palminteri and Chaz Michael Michaels, but ahead of Chaz Bono. I can't even think of any more Chazzes to round out the top 5.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaz I suppose this is more than I thought there'd be. 

[Sleepy Harold]

5 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

He’s also the same guy who wanted to DFA Aaron Bummer so his articles mean less than nothing.

especially when accompanied by a slideshow

[ChiSoxTrojan]

Obviously Chisholm would be a great fit and an immediate improvement for the Sox lineup. There are only so many left-handed 2B with the power to hit 25+ HRs and play excellent defense. But there are several things working against a trade and reasons why it will never happen.

• Prospect cost. The Sox would have to empty out the farm for Chisholm. The suggestions before included Montgomery, Crochet, and Ramos (possibly more).
• Health. He had a bad back and other injuries that derailed his season last year. He had some nagging injuries the year before as well. The last thing the Sox need is another injury-prone starter.
• Internal options. The Sox have a bunch of young players in their system who could become everyday 2B within the next couple years: Sosa, Romy, Popeye, Montgomery, Ramos, I'll even throw Sanchez in there. Chisholm is under control through 2026, so acquiring him effectively blocks these guys. (Yes, I'm aware they could be traded or they could play other positions).
• Payroll cost (long-term). Chisholm is cheap now, but if he continues on the trajectory he's been on (and is able to stay healthy) he's going to get really expensive in a couple years through arbitration. I just don't think 2B is a position the Sox want to invest a lot of their payroll in, especially when they've got a number of cheap internal options that would be on rookie deals.

I think most people here know these things, but then I keep seeing the Chisholm trade suggestions so I thought I'd lay it all out .

[AJ'S Cousin]

12 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

He’s also the same guy who wanted to DFA Aaron Bummer so his articles mean less than nothing.

Sometimes when I saw Aaron Bummer on the mound i wished he was DFA'd LOL, only kidding but Bummer was sometimes a real BUMMER on the mound  

[AJ'S Cousin]

I still, and I know I'm going to get backlash once again,  would rather have Chisholm at 2nd then Sosa, Gonzalez or Garcia. Let the hate responses begin calling me stupid, a moron, stupid and my favorite will be "you know nothing about baseball". I'm ready for the ridicule. I just like to have fun  and create senario's. Isn't that what this is all about? FUN!!! I haven't seen one response with and alternative cure for 2nd base unless everyone is going to be happy with Sosa/Gonzalez/Garcia at 2nd. If so great.

[AJ'S Cousin]

10 minutes ago, ChiSoxTrojan said:

Obviously Chisholm would be a great fit and an immediate improvement for the Sox lineup. There are only so many left-handed 2B with the power to hit 25+ HRs and play excellent defense. But there are several things working against a trade and reasons why it will never happen.

• Prospect cost. The Sox would have to empty out the farm for Chisholm. The suggestions before included Montgomery, Crochet, and Ramos (possibly more).
• Health. He had a bad back and other injuries that derailed his season last year. He had some nagging injuries the year before as well. The last thing the Sox need is another injury-prone starter.
• Internal options. The Sox have a bunch of young players in their system who could become everyday 2B within the next couple years: Sosa, Romy, Popeye, Montgomery, Ramos, I'll even throw Sanchez in there. Chisholm is under control through 2026, so acquiring him effectively blocks these guys. (Yes, I'm aware they could be traded or they could play other positions).
• Payroll cost (long-term). Chisholm is cheap now, but if he continues on the trajectory he's been on (and is able to stay healthy) he's going to get really expensive in a couple years through arbitration. I just don't think 2B is a position the Sox want to invest a lot of their payroll in, especially when they've got a number of cheap internal options that would be on rookie deals.

I think most people here know these things, but then I keep seeing the Chisholm trade suggestions so I thought I'd lay it all out .

Great points, BUT

1st of all Montgomery is going to replace Anderson at SS in 2 years when the Sox don't renew his Contract

2nd Crochet i believe is ALMOST untouchable unless it's a much bigger star than Chisholm. 

3rd Sosa and Gonzalez would have to really have great springs, and even then the pressure of the regular season is much tougher than the Spring Training. 

4th I believe Chisholm has 2 years of control and if he got to expensive, then Sosa and or Gonzalez would be ready. 

Great Post, will organized and you made great points to think about. 

[4uckOffCommieScum]

Chisholm isn’t eligible for free agency until ‘27.

[ChiSoxTrojan]

1 minute ago, AJ'S Cousin said:

Great points, BUT

1st of all Montgomery is going to replace Anderson at SS in 2 years when the Sox don't renew his Contract

2nd Crochet i believe is ALMOST untouchable unless it's a much bigger star than Chisholm. 

3rd Sosa and Gonzalez would have to really have great springs, and even then the pressure of the regular season is much tougher than the Spring Training. 

4th I believe Chisholm has 2 years of control and if he got to expensive, then Sosa and or Gonzalez would be ready. 

Great Post, will organized and you made great points to think about. 

Gonna disagree on Crochet, I'm not sure why you would think he's untouchable. He's proven nothing to this point and the ship has sailed on him ever starting. But if you think that Crochet is untouchable, that just emphasizes how the Sox do not have the trade chips to get a deal done.

Chisholm is under control through 2026. https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/miami-marlins/jazz-chisholm-29144/

I'm not saying that Romy or Sosa are definitely the answer, and I'd be in favor of relieving the pressure on them with a veteran LH 2B. One who can easily be pushed aside if one of the two rookies is able to step up. Trading for Wendle is my favorite idea, but I'd be okay with signing Odor if it's cheap.

 

[southsider2k5]

21 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

No one doesn't thing JAZZ would be an improvement.  What we think is we don't need to flush our entire farm system, or a starter plus most of the farm system to make it happen.  This isn't OOTP.

 

1 hour ago, AJ'S Cousin said:

I still, and I know I'm going to get backlash once again,  would rather have Chisholm at 2nd then Sosa, Gonzalez or Garcia. Let the hate responses begin calling me stupid, a moron, stupid and my favorite will be "you know nothing about baseball". I'm ready for the ridicule. I just like to have fun  and create senario's. Isn't that what this is all about? FUN!!! I haven't seen one response with and alternative cure for 2nd base unless everyone is going to be happy with Sosa/Gonzalez/Garcia at 2nd. If so great.

 

[Timmy U]

13 minutes ago, ChiSoxTrojan said:

Messed up this post.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Timmy U

[Chick Mercedes]

The logic behind this thread spawned Madrigal trade talk. 

1 hour ago, AJ'S Cousin said:

I still, and I know I'm going to get backlash once again,  would rather have Chisholm at 2nd then Sosa, Gonzalez or Garcia. Let the hate responses begin calling me stupid, a moron, stupid and my favorite will be "you know nothing about baseball". I'm ready for the ridicule. I just like to have fun  and create senario's. Isn't that what this is all about? FUN!!! I haven't seen one response with and alternative cure for 2nd base unless everyone is going to be happy with Sosa/Gonzalez/Garcia at 2nd. If so great.

Don’t worry about it. The same logic was behind Madrigal trade talk here. That was fun as well.

[Buehrle>Wood]

The cover boy for MLB The Show this year. Seems he will be pushed as a star. 

 

[Quin]

7 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

The cover boy for MLB The Show this year. Seems he will be pushed as a star. 

 

why does it not say "CHAZ JIZZ" on the box

[caulfield12]

On 1/22/2023 at 1:57 AM, AJ'S Cousin said:

Great points, BUT

1st of all Montgomery is going to replace Anderson at SS in 2 years when the Sox don't renew his Contract

2nd Crochet i believe is ALMOST untouchable unless it's a much bigger star than Chisholm. 

3rd Sosa and Gonzalez would have to really have great springs, and even then the pressure of the regular season is much tougher than the Spring Training. 

4th I believe Chisholm has 2 years of control and if he got to expensive, then Sosa and or Gonzalez would be ready. 

Great Post, will organized and you made great points to think about. 

Jazz Chisholm Jr.

"Yet another player who comes to mind with the concept of dynamic. Chisholm has been 94th percentile in sprint speed in each of the last two seasons. In just 60 games played last year due to injury, he racked up 25 barrels, just four shy of tying his career high of 29 from 2021 – accomplished in 124 games. Chisholm is one of nine players projected to have at least 25 stolen bases."

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-players-who-could-hit-40-homers-steal-40-bases?partnerId=zh-20230130-814539-mlb-1-A&qid=1026&utm_id=zh-20230130-814539-mlb-1-A&bt_ee=hUuk0kBtR4Zvy3tbvd%2FLrKTlznXRhfr%2Fi5DrGI9JERdjOXqSyUMAZW3hFIz27U8X&bt_ts=1675090163879

Being one of the Top 5-10 candidates in baseball for 40/40 sure seems like a star to me...especially with Tim Anderson likely on his way out and the current dearth of black players in MLB (Bahamas originally).

(There's just no way we can afford to sacrifice the prospect haul unless we are willing to part with guys like Robert and/or Crochet instead.  Which makes even less sense.)

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by caulfield12

[4uckOffCommieScum]

I’d rather have a star major league player. You can always acquire and develop more prospects during the years that player is actually helping the major league team. With the contracts coming off the books in the next 1-2 years the sox can acquire major league talent to finish the major league roster

[caulfield12]

16 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

I’d rather have a star major league player. You can always acquire and develop more prospects during the years that player is actually helping the major league team. With the contracts coming off the books in the next 1-2 years the sox can acquire major league talent to finish the major league roster

The Tyreek Hill move to Miami is a perfect example of how spreading out the talent with young/athletic players across multiple positions is a better method of retooling than investing 80-85% of your payroll in just a handful of stars.

(The other problem is the White Sox don't even have any true stars...Abreu and TA7 being the two closest.  And the big league roster was supposed to be finished by now...refer to Cubs' recent competitive run for more details.)

[4uckOffCommieScum]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

The Tyreek Hill move to Miami is a perfect example of how spreading out the talent with young/athletic players across multiple positions is a better method of retooling than investing 80-85% of your payroll in just a handful of stars.

(The other problem is the White Sox don't even have any true stars...Abreu and TA7 being the two closest.  And the big league roster was supposed to be finished by now...refer to Cubs' recent competitive run for more details.)

If they traded for Chisholm they’d have Jimenez, Robert, Benintendi, Vaughn, Colas and Chisholm for the next four years, with Moncada and Anderson off the books after year two. Our catcher situation is currently Seby and Perez unless you believe Grandal isn’t already cooked, either way Grandal’s 18.5 mil coming off the books along with tens of millions worth of other contracts.

I just don’t see why TA’s and Moncada’s spots couldn’t be covered after two years by the acquisition of major league players, Five years from now they will have had five years to acquire and develop new prospects. I just don’t see how Montgomery could be untouchable when the current core could be competitive over the next few years with a couple key acquisitions.

And I don’t see how Miami is the perfect example of anything other than how to consistently lose 90+ games a year.

[caulfield12]

25 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

If they traded for Chisholm they’d have Jimenez, Robert, Benintendi, Vaughn, Colas and Chisholm for the next four years, with Moncada and Anderson off the books after year two. Our catcher situation is currently Seby and Perez unless you believe Grandal isn’t already cooked, either way Grandal’s 18.5 mil coming off the books along with tens of millions worth of other contracts.

I just don’t see why TA’s and Moncada’s spots couldn’t be covered after two years by the acquisition of major league players, Five years from now they will have had five years to acquire and develop new prospects. I just don’t see how Montgomery could be untouchable when the current core could be competitive over the next few years with a couple key acquisitions.

And I don’t see how Miami is the perfect example of anything other than how to consistently lose 90+ games a year.

They're not going to have a legit pitching staff the next two years, for one...assuming Giolito is gone and no Clevinger and absolutely perfect health from the other three.

We sort of have a closer in Graveman/Reynaldo, but that Hendriks situation is problematic from a salary/payroll standpoint.

And the Moncada contract is heading in the direction of disaster as well unless we see a dramatic turnaround.

[4uckOffCommieScum]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

They're not going to have a legit pitching staff the next two years, for one...assuming Giolito is gone and no Clevinger and absolutely perfect health from the other three.

We sort of have a closer in Graveman/Reynaldo, but that Hendriks situation is problematic from a salary/payroll standpoint.

And the Moncada contract is heading in the direction of disaster as well unless we see a dramatic turnaround.

Giolito is gone after this year. Also paying 18.5 million to Grandal and 17.5 million for a couple middle relievers, plus Giolito’s contract. And Leury and Diekman. I don’t know maybe Gio could be replaced or re-signed for some of that 55+ million? Guys like Leury, Diekman and Grandal can be replaced at league minimum for their current levels of production.  The following year Moncada, Liam, TA and Lynn. That’s another sum close to 80 million. If you stop spending on replacement level utility infielders and relievers that produce at a comparable level to guys who sign for 1-2 mil/year it shouldn’t be that hard to come up with a MLB third baseman and short stop and a couple of starters over those two years to supplement the core in year three and beyond. After those four years that could be somewhat reasonably mapped out at this point, you will have an entirely new batch of prospects. If it fails then acquire new ones via a fire sale

 

Also I just realized you were talking about the Dolphins rather than Marlins. Seriously man? You think an NFL team should be a model? Come on now

 

 

 

[Sleepy Harold]

4 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

Giolito is gone after this year. Also paying 18.5 million to Grandal and 17.5 million for a couple middle relievers, plus Giolito’s contract. And Leury and Diekman. I don’t know maybe Gio could be replaced or re-signed for some of that 55+ million? Guys like Leury, Diekman and Grandal can be replaced at league minimum for their current levels of production.  The following year Moncada, Liam, TA and Lynn. That’s another sum close to 80 million. If you stop spending on replacement level utility infielders and relievers that produce at a comparable level to guys who sign for 1-2 mil/year it shouldn’t be that hard to come up with a MLB third baseman and short stop and a couple of starters over those two years to supplement the core in year three and beyond. After those four years that could be somewhat reasonably mapped out at this point, you will have an entirely new batch of prospects. If it fails then acquire new ones via a fire sale

 

Also I just realized you were talking about the Dolphins rather than Marlins. Seriously man? You think an NFL team should be a model? Come on now

 

 

 

Leury still has another year on his deal after this. 

[4uckOffCommieScum]

Just now, Sleepy Harold said:

Leury still has another year on his deal after this. 

s%*#. That sucks. Still I think we could find a starting pitcher for less than 50 million

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

s%*#. That sucks. Still I think we could find a starting pitcher for less than 50 million

You certainly can. Guys like Rodon, Martin Perez occasionally sign for like $5 million or less.

The problem is you can't count on that kind of luck to fill out an entire rotation. If you sign one of those guys to be your 6th starter, that's fine on a competitive team, and if they break out - hooray, look at Rodon in 2021.

However, you can't count on that kind of luck to fill out your entire lineup. Somewhere in there you need additional cheap talent to come out of your system, otherwise you are filling your entire roster with Clevinger like guys who you are hoping have comeback years. 

If I write down all the positions you opened after 2025 - 3 starting pitchers, closer, 3b, SS, and try to fill them with average free agents, you wind up with a $200+ million payroll really quick without something from your system.

[4uckOffCommieScum]

I said less than fifty million not five million

 

Grandal, Graveman, Kelly, Diekman and Giolito takes approx fifty million off the books with which Gio could be replaced. The collective production we have received from the relievers could be had at 1-2 million per for three relievers on an average market. Grandal is useless as this point so replacing him wouldn’t be more than a league minimum player. So that would leave around 44 million to replace Gio with

Edited January 31, 2023 by FourEyesShottenhoffer

[Balta1701]

11 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

I said less than fifty million not five million

 

Grandal, Graveman, Kelly, Diekman and Giolito takes approx fifty million off the books with which Gio could be replaced. The collective production we have received from the relievers could be had at 1-2 million per for three relievers on an average market. Grandal is useless as this point so replacing him wouldn’t be more than a league minimum player. So that would leave around 44 million to replace Gio with

No. Because the salaries for Robert, Moncada, Cease, Kopech, Eloy, Bummer, and Anderson will all go up by several million each. Moncada, for example, goes from $19 million to $25 million. Cease will be arb 2, he could go from $6 million to $10 million if he’s as good as last year. Also keep in mind that they backloaded Benintendi’s deal and moved some of Clevingers money to a buyout paid at the end of the year

Graveman is also under contract for 2024 for $8 million again.

If the White Sox have a payroll in 2024 comparable to this year, they will have something like $20 million total to replace both Giolito and Clevinger, as well as find bullpen depth and fill any other holes they have. Give or take the arbitration numbers for people and what they do at the deadline. If the payroll doesn’t go up, this will be even tougher than this year.