Mike Clevinger under investigation for domestic violence

[Tnetennba]

4 hours ago, flavum said:

I guess time will tell, but I don’t think there’s a chance in hell he throws a pitch in a Sox uniform. 

Remind me what happened to Addison Russel’s career?  Wasn’t he seriously toxic afterwards?  I’d like to think the same happens here but I don’t have high hopes. 

[Balta1701]

12 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Remind me what happened to Addison Russel’s career?  Wasn’t he seriously toxic afterwards?  I’d like to think the same happens here but I don’t have high hopes. 

In 2016 he won a title and was the NL All Star Starter.

In 2017, his numbers were a little worse, but he was still an average player. 2.2 WAR, so literally "average starter". .722 OPS.

In 2018, his offense was falling off some but his defense continued to be fine. His OPS dropped to .657 on the season. He was put on administrative leave near the end of the season. Overall though, he was a 2.6 WAR player that year, better than the year before overall. 

He started 2019 suspended, came back, and put up a 0.8 fWAR season in 241 plate appearances. .699 OPS. He was sent to AAA mid-season. He was designated for assignment at the end of the year and no one picked him up. 

Looking at the advance stats, he was actually better than I thought the last few years, I remember hearing about how his offense never blossomed, but he remained an average player and could have totally continued being a MLB level shortstop based on his performance alone. I'd have to conclude the reason he's playing in Korea now is the domestic violence suspension and no one wanting to sign him because of it.

 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

32 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Remind me what happened to Addison Russel’s career?  Wasn’t he seriously toxic afterwards?  I’d like to think the same happens here but I don’t have high hopes. 

You don't have to worry.  That s%*# stain won't pitch for them. 

[fathom]

5 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

You don't have to worry.  That s%*# stain won't pitch for them. 

Yep I’m amazed anyone thinks he will

[kitekrazy]

Meanwhile passing on Cueto looks really bad to me.  

This organization seems to find new lows to where it challenges being a fan,

[bighurt574]

Clevinger will never pitch for the Sox.  Heck, if you want to go that route, just sign Bauer.  He's better and already served his time.  (Not suggesting we do that either.)

[4uckOffCommieScum]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

There are so few cases of this happening in baseball over the ~8 seasons of the domestic violence policy that it is hard to make an educated guess about how that will affect baseball's decision making. However, in part based on the "some unknown reason" language you chose I do want to note and stress that different people respond to trauma differently and that one person filing things in a different way from others shouldn't be taken to indicate really anything about the validity of the accusation.

You can come up with lots of justifications for why a person would act like that. It is also possible that there were other steps taken that we don't know about yet, baseball beat writers in Chicago aren't necessarily the best criminal investigative reporters.

What we know is that:

1. Somehow this was reported to the Padres last year and the Padres reported it to MLB. MLB appears to have followed appropriate procedures as spelled out in their domestic violence agreement, opening an investigation while retaining privacy.
2. The White Sox signed Clevinger without ever being informed by the league. This was again the written policy of the league. 
3. The victim chose to go public a week ago including their photographs. 

There are many justifications for not reporting child abuse to police? Such as?

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

There are many justifications for not reporting child abuse to police? Such as?

Ongoing danger to onesself or the child from the aggressor?

[4uckOffCommieScum]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

Ongoing danger to onesself or the child from the aggressor?

So posting on instagram rather than notifying police somehow is less dangerous?

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

So posting on instagram rather than notifying police somehow is less dangerous?

Do the police always help? Are there people who might have already lost confidence in the police? Maybe they reported something before and the police did nothing and the person just got more violent afterwards? 

[ChetLemon77]

5 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

That’s fair. And to be honest, I agree with most everything you said and as far as Sox fans / this board goes, side with your take on this much more than most. 

That said, Clevinger is a scumbag and I hope he never pitches a game for the Sox even though they’re clearly better if he does as currently constructed. I hope he gets hit with a 162+ game ban and blackballed from the league like Bauer appears to be. I am in no way condoning the DV allegations here, but the child abuse accusations takes this a very clear step further for me. It’s also just another distraction (as minor as it may ultimately be), that is clubhouse does not need. 

I hope he gets a 162+ game ban & blackballed from the league if the investigation shows he did what he's been accused of doing...

[4uckOffCommieScum]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Do the police always help? Are there people who might have already lost confidence in the police? Maybe they reported something before and the police did nothing and the person just got more violent afterwards? 

Sure that’s possible. But notifying an employer and posting on instagram would serve to similarly provoke such a person, without providing any possible resolution to that threat.  So it seems kind of nonsensical. There is nothing instagram or mlb can do to physically keep him away from her or the child, so if that were her concern, the action doesn’t follow. If we look at the previous seventeen suspensions under this policy, they followed a report to police.

[Dick Allen]

7 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Do the police always help? Are there people who might have already lost confidence in the police? Maybe they reported something before and the police did nothing and the person just got more violent afterwards? 

I often listen to the police scanner in my area. broadcastify .com for those interested. I live in the 18th district of Chicago. The amount of calls that go without a response or a delayed response for hours, would shock you. About a month ago, they had a domestic call, and no one went over there for at least 2 hours, and when they did, everyone was gone.

[Balta1701]

7 hours ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

Sure that’s possible. But notifying an employer and posting on instagram would serve to similarly provoke such a person, without providing any possible resolution to that threat.  So it seems kind of nonsensical. There is nothing instagram or mlb can do to physically keep him away from her or the child, so if that were her concern, the action doesn’t follow. If we look at the previous seventeen suspensions under this policy, they followed a report to police.

Well as long as you are confident you know all the details of this case you can be fully clear in judging that this victim doesn’t meet your standards and calling out people like me who say they won’t make that determination.

[Harry Chappas]

I have a feeling there isn't going to be enough proof to validate her claim and as such there is then nothing the White Sox or MLB can do about it.  They can base a claim on a  police report   or further interviews and maybe that will come out here and vindicate the victim but I would think that would be further down the road than it is 

There needs to be some sort of collaborating evidence against a he said / she said situation which is where this is at currently. 

The claims thus far is much different than what was seen in the Ray Rice case and Addison Russell.  

Collaborating the guy is a POS is very likely but not enough to keep him from pitching.

Also I'm not certain this will have any impact in the White Sox club house unless it is directly impacting them.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Harry Chappas said:

I have a feeling there isn't going to be enough proof to validate her claim and as such there is then nothing the White Sox or MLB can do about it.  They can base a claim on a  police report   or further interviews and maybe that will come out here and vindicate the victim but I would think that would be further down the road than it is 

There needs to be some sort of collaborating evidence against a he said / she said situation which is where this is at currently. 

The claims thus far is much different than what was seen in the Ray Rice case and Addison Russell.  

Collaborating the guy is a POS is very likely but not enough to keep him from pitching.

Also I'm not certain this will have any impact in the White Sox club house unless it is directly impacting them.

Evidence like photos?

[Harry Chappas]

25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Evidence like photos?

Those alone can convict someone on social media but there needs to be more to penalize the accused.  Maybe the MLB has more information and then a decision can be rendered but based on the information provided thus far I am not sure there is enough.  A week ago I thought this would begin a snow ball and maybe it will and he can go away and not be heard from.

I did not read the Athletic column so maybe there is more there than what other outlets are reporting.

This is another stain on the Hahn resume but I do not think the White Sox are in a position to do anything about it.  it was a stupid move on day one and continues to look worse but the White Sox are not cutting ties and eating the money.

Maybe there is other evidence out there that seems to come to light in these situations that will force him to be held accountable.  There is plenty to determine he is a POS but that won't keep him off the field. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Harry Chappas

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

Those alone can convict someone on social media but there needs to be more to penalize the accused.  Maybe the MLB has more information and then a decision can be rendered but based on the information provided thus far I am not sure there is enough.  A week ago I thought this would begin a snow ball and maybe it will and he can go away and not be heard from.

I did not read the Athletic column so maybe there is more there than what other outlets are reporting.

This is another stain on the Hahn resume but I do not think the White Sox are in a position to do anything about it.  it was a stupid move on day one and continues to look worse but the White Sox are not cutting ties and eating the money.

Maybe there is other evidence out there that seems to come to light in these situations that will force him to be held accountable.  There is plenty to determine he is a POS but that won't keep him off the field. 

“Here are photos. The metadata on them will give dates and geotag them to a house owned by Clevinger. I went to a doctor afterwards you can talk to them here, here’s my mothers number I confided in her afterwards, here are the names of three friends I told about what happened, here’s the receipts for the date I contacted a lawyer, here’s my therapist’s information I give permission for them to share details with you, and here’s the name of two of his ex girlfriends you can try to contact them also.”

Soxtalk: “how will we ever find corroborating evidence this is the definition of a he said she said case.”

[raBBit]

14 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

In 2016 he won a title and was the NL All Star Starter.

In 2017, his numbers were a little worse, but he was still an average player. 2.2 WAR, so literally "average starter". .722 OPS.

In 2018, his offense was falling off some but his defense continued to be fine. His OPS dropped to .657 on the season. He was put on administrative leave near the end of the season. Overall though, he was a 2.6 WAR player that year, better than the year before overall. 

He started 2019 suspended, came back, and put up a 0.8 fWAR season in 241 plate appearances. .699 OPS. He was sent to AAA mid-season. He was designated for assignment at the end of the year and no one picked him up. 

Looking at the advance stats, he was actually better than I thought the last few years, I remember hearing about how his offense never blossomed, but he remained an average player and could have totally continued being a MLB level shortstop based on his performance alone. I'd have to conclude the reason he's playing in Korea now is the domestic violence suspension and no one wanting to sign him because of it.

 

He had an OPS of .653 in the KBO in 2020. For reference, Socrates Brito, who had a career OPS of .525 in 218 PA's in the MLB posted an OPS of .848 in the KBO last year.  

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, raBBit said:

He had an OPS of .653 in the KBO in 2020. For reference, Socrates Brito, who had a career OPS of .525 in 218 PA's in the MLB posted an OPS of .848 in the KBO last year.  

If the 2020 White Sox signed a guy to a minimum contract who was previously a top 10 prospect in baseball, who had 2 years of arb-eligibility remaining, and who had put up 11.8 WAR in 5 seasons and a .699 OPS the previous year while playing solid defense, I'd have probably called that the best signing of the offseason if there wasn't any other issues. 

[Chimpton]

38 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

“Here are photos. The metadata on them will give dates and geotag them to a house owned by Clevinger. I went to a doctor afterwards you can talk to them here, here’s my mothers number I confided in her afterwards, here are the names of three friends I told about what happened, here’s the receipts for the date I contacted a lawyer, here’s my therapist’s information I give permission for them to share details with you, and here’s the name of two of his ex girlfriends you can try to contact them also.”

Soxtalk: “how will we ever find corroborating evidence this is the definition of a he said she said case.”

All of the things you list are a collection of circumstantial evidence that any half competent defence lawyer would undermine, hence the fact that unless I have missed something he has yet to face any criminal charges where something has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The MLB will also have to apply a legal approach.

There is no doubt that he is a nasty piece of work and no doubt the allegations contain a huge amount of accuracy, but whether the evidence is enough to 'convict' him in a real court or MLB hearing is a doubt, in the court of social media and public opinion he is guilty as charged but unless the White Sox FO have more moral compass than I think they will not sack him unless the MLB find him guilty.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

All of the things you list are a collection of circumstantial evidence that any half competent defence lawyer would undermine, hence the fact that unless I have missed something he has yet to face any criminal charges where something has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The MLB will also have to apply a legal approach.

There is no doubt that he is a nasty piece of work and no doubt the allegations contain a huge amount of accuracy, but whether the evidence is enough to 'convict' him in a real court or MLB hearing is a doubt, in the court of social media and public opinion he is guilty as charged but unless the White Sox FO have more moral compass than I think they will not sack him unless the MLB find him guilty.

Photographs and statements from doctors are not considered circumstantial evidence by a court of law. Furthermore, in addition to photographs, circumstantial evidence can be admissible and can support that evidence. 

MLB specifically has the authority to act and suspend a player regardless of the determination of the legal system. This is 100% explicit in the Domestic Violence Agreement.

Quote

Player may be subjected to disciplinary action for just cause by the Commissioner for a violation of this Policy in the absence of a conviction or a plea of guilty to a crime involving a Covered Act.

Baseball is a business. They have rights to protect their business from employing people who abuse women and children that go beyond the requirements for the legal system. 

Now please stop making me google this.

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

All of the things you list are a collection of circumstantial evidence that any half competent defence lawyer would undermine, hence the fact that unless I have missed something he has yet to face any criminal charges where something has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The MLB will also have to apply a legal approach.

There is no doubt that he is a nasty piece of work and no doubt the allegations contain a huge amount of accuracy, but whether the evidence is enough to 'convict' him in a real court or MLB hearing is a doubt, in the court of social media and public opinion he is guilty as charged but unless the White Sox FO have more moral compass than I think they will not sack him unless the MLB find him guilty.

Again, somewhere under 2% of domestic abuse instances ever see a conviction.  98% walk free. 

[Tnetennba]

14 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

You don't have to worry.  That s%*# stain won't pitch for them. 

 

14 hours ago, fathom said:

Yep I’m amazed anyone thinks he will

In all fairness, this is the White Sox we are talking about.  I very much hope you are right, but I have no faith in them and they get zero benefit of the doubt.  Until they do the right thing, it is hard not to expect them to do what is wrong.

[TheBooneLoganEra]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

“Here are photos. The metadata on them will give dates and geotag them to a house owned by Clevinger. I went to a doctor afterwards you can talk to them here, here’s my mothers number I confided in her afterwards, here are the names of three friends I told about what happened, here’s the receipts for the date I contacted a lawyer, here’s my therapist’s information I give permission for them to share details with you, and here’s the name of two of his ex girlfriends you can try to contact them also.”

Soxtalk: “how will we ever find corroborating evidence this is the definition of a he said she said case.”

Circumstantial evidence and hearsay will rarely do the job no matter how much you want them to. Not saying he's not trash but I still think he ends up pitching and management is hoping this will all fade away.