Mike Clevinger under investigation for domestic violence

[35thstreetswarm]

5 hours ago, ron883 said:

That's funny considering you posted in the Clevinger signing thread plenty, but never once alluded to how he has a bad person. 

Does anybody take this fraudulent insider's opinion seriously anymore? He's no more reliable than the foodies. 

I do—so much so that it’s only fair to ask whether some of the responsibility for the Clevinger debacle falls on him.  I mean, I’m not saying he’s the only one at fault, but when you have that level of organizational access, information and authority you have to share part of the blame.  

[caulfield12]

https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2021/aug/27/sdqt-former-member-padres-pad-squad-may-have-deep/

"Which makes it all the more mysterious how Los Angeles Dodgers pitcher Trevor Bauer, recipient of maybe the richest single-season contract in history, wound up in bed with a woman who’d been booted from the Padres' Pad Squad for her fling with Padres star Fernando Tatis, Jr., and who later hooked up with Padres pitcher Mike Clevinger."

Seems a lot of the so-called groupies were 18 and 19 years old (not illegal but undoubtedly ill-advised for a married man around 30)...fwiw, the Dodgers have their own group called Las Angels.

Once again, all this information was out there publicly with a simple Google search the Sox analytics team could have run if Hahn proved incapable.

 

The whole acquisition was predicated on the "bargain" contract rate for someone with that track record and the theoretical bounce back the second year coming back from TJ surgery.

Edited January 26, 2023 by caulfield12

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I don’t know what the difference is in some of these cases, but recently many of the domestic violence suspensions look to have been about half the season. Carlos Martinez received a half season suspension last fall. 

Sam Dyson received a full year in 2021 and then of course there’s Bauer. Without knowing the circumstances, half a season seems to be the most likely number.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_suspended_for_domestic_violence

I don’t really care how much money the Sox end up on the hook for, I never want to see him in uniform, in the dugout, or around the team.  They absolutely should cut ties with him as soon as it’s feasibly possible.  If he does pitch for this team it’s going to be really hard for me not to cut ties with them.  TLR nearly broke my fandom, this very well could finish the job of ending it. 

[greg775]

8 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I don’t really care how much money the Sox end up on the hook for, I never want to see him in uniform, in the dugout, or around the team.  They absolutely should cut ties with him as soon as it’s feasibly possible.  If he does pitch for this team it’s going to be really hard for me not to cut ties with them.  TLR nearly broke my fandom, this very well could finish the job of ending it. 

It's up to baseball commish to make the call. Probably should suspend him without pay (will players assn. allow that though?) til the court case if there is one. Unless there's a video the legal process prolly has to play out before he's permanently kicked out of baseball, right? I don't pretend to be a legal mastermind so sorry if I'm way off base. Just my thoughts.

[Balta1701]

Oh Lord I just realized this.

Hahn could have paid Clevinger $12 million, but instead he had to pay him $8 million this year and turn $4 million into a buyout.

If Hahn paid him $12 million straight up, and he was suspended half the year, he’d be owed $6 million. But because of Hahn’s shenanigans, if he’s suspended half the year, he is owed $4 million, then a $4 million buyout, for $8 million.

I am not as certain on this, but I think if he’s suspended the whole year he would still be owed his buyout. If that’s right, then he would have been owed $0 if suspended the whole year and instead he’d be owed $4 million for the buyout instead of zero.

Ricky probably handed him between $2 and $4 million because he wanted to defer money to 2024. 

Good work.

[ChetLemon77]

20 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I don’t really care how much money the Sox end up on the hook for, I never want to see him in uniform, in the dugout, or around the team.  They absolutely should cut ties with him as soon as it’s feasibly possible.  If he does pitch for this team it’s going to be really hard for me not to cut ties with them.  TLR nearly broke my fandom, this very well could finish the job of ending it. 

So if he's eventually exonerated (not likely, but certainly possible), you'd still want the Sox to "cut ties with him" and you would still "cut ties with them?" Just wondering...

[shago]

8 hours ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/mike-clevinger-605182?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb
 

Scroll down for a laundry list of red flags of impending poor performance

You mean Rick Hahn didn't do his homework? Shocking

[Tnetennba]

19 minutes ago, ChetLemon77 said:

So if he's eventually exonerated (not likely, but certainly possible), you'd still want the Sox to "cut ties with him" and you would still "cut ties with them?" Just wondering...

If he’s exonerated, I will have to cross that bridge if we get there.  As it stands he’s been credibly accused, if MLB clears him and he remains with the team it’s something I’ll have to live with.  He is still a shitbag either way.  Whether or not I choose to still follow this team afterwards is an unknown.  

[caulfield12]

The White Sox have massive problem on their hands.

Apathy bordering on disgust for the ownership and management team.

There's just no way attendance isn't going to be down another 20-30% based on this offseason, the losses of Abreu and Hendriks, and now another PR nightmare with Clevinger.

They're basically just sitting on their hands hoping a new manager and better health fixes things...see 2012 White Sox under rookie manager Ventura, for a recent example.

It feels like it has been all downhill since Luis Robert bombed that rocket into CF in Game 3 at the Coliseum after Crochet was injured/pulled.

This coming from a fan who used to wake up every day to hand calculate statistics for the 1984-1989 teams from the afternoon newspaper box scores, some of the truly worst MLB offenses in recent memory. 

While it's totally impossible to change your #1 allegiance in any sport, it's so frustrating to read the news and see the Padres are already planning to go after Ohtani and a long-term extension for Soto with Machado likely opting out after 2023.

How can a team with all the media market advantages in the known universe in the AL Central be getting curb-stomped by a team that's anywhere from 27th to 30th for MLB broadcasting dollars?

It's totally infuriating.

It's not like they haven't spent money, either.  They just don't know how to spend it wisely, how to properly allocate limited resources.

Hopefully I'm still alive when the next great Sox team comes around...as it's so unlikely to happen in the next 5-7 years.

Edited January 26, 2023 by caulfield12

[hi8is]

7 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The White Sox have massive problem on their hands.

Apathy bordering on disgust for the ownership and management team.

There's just no way attendance isn't going to be down another 20-30% based on this offseason, the losses of Abreu and Hendriks, and now another PR nightmare with Clevinger.

They're basically just sitting on their hands hoping a new manager and better health fixes things...see 2012 White Sox under rookie manager Ventura, for a recent example.

It feels like it has been all downhill since Luis Robert bombed that rocket into CF in Game 3 at the Coliseum after Crochet was injured/pulled.

This coming from a fan who used to wake up every day to hand calculate statistics for the 1984-1989 teamsrs from the newspaper box scores, some of the worst MLB offenses in recent memory.

While it's totally impossible to change your #1 allegiance in any sport, it's so frustrating to read the news and see the Padres are already planning to go after Ohtani and a long-term extension for Soto with Machado likely opting out after 2023.

How can a team with all the media market advantages in the known universe in the AL Central be getting curb-stomped by a team that's anywhere from 27th to 30th for MLB broadcasting dollars?

It's totally infuriating.

It's not like they haven't spent money, either.  They just don't know how to spend it wisely, how to properly allocate limited resources.

Hopefully I'm still alive when the next great Sox team comes around...as it's so unlikely to happen in the next 5-7 years.

I cry for you and hope the team turns around one day. You deserve another winner.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, hi8is said:

I cry for you and hope the team turns around one day. You deserve another winner.

Thanks.  It's not THAT dramatic, but it's amazing how life priorities change when you get married and especially have kids.  And now having lost both parents, it's a reminder of how short life can be.

I remember once having a dream of retiring and buying White Sox season tickets every year.  Now, I actually feel like an Advanced A minor league team or maybe AA like San Antonio in the past would be the dream...where the players are close (but not not TOO close to the majors) but everything's more affordable like parking or concessions and ticket holders largely come from same social class more or less.

[Paulie4Pres]

17 hours ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Paulie is defintely a legend 100%. Still rock his jersey from time to time. 

Agree 100% on the child abuse and domestic abuse stuff. Not kosher in any way shape or form. 

But yeah most of these dudes are out getting some tail on the side. Anyone trying to pretend that Clevinger is some bad dude for sleeping around are not gonna be able to root for many professional athlethes. Clevinger is a bad dude cause he allegeldy abused his wife and kid not because he couldn't keep it in his pants. 

Sleeping around when you have a wife, or a baby mama, DOES make you a bad dude. It's fucking despicable behavior, and it shows a total lack of respect for women, and your children. Cheating on a significant other is one of the worst betrayals you can commit as a human being. It disgusts me to see so many of you fucking misogynists normalizing this behavior, just because these guys are professional athletes. f*** off.

[JoeC]

1 hour ago, Paulie4Pres said:

Sleeping around when you have a wife, or a baby mama, DOES make you a bad dude. It's fucking despicable behavior, and it shows a total lack of respect for women, and your children. Cheating on a significant other is one of the worst betrayals you can commit as a human being. It disgusts me to see so many of you fucking misogynists normalizing this behavior, just because these guys are professional athletes. f*** off.

I read his post more as a “Clevinger may be a bad dude, but he’s no worse than the other despicable characters if philandering is your standard of ‘bad dude.’”

But yeah - otherwise I agree. That “locker room” culture is frankly the cause of some of the worst excuse for human behavior I have seen.

[caulfield12]

"My goal would never be to be vindictive or put somebody in the penalty box. I don't believe in that," Francona said. "I do believe in being accountable to your teammates. And I know that they've got some trust to earn back and they're (Clevinger and Pleasac) going to have to earn that back. And I don't know how easy that will be. If I did, I'd tell you. If I had the exact solution, I'd snap my fingers and we'd do it. 

"There's been a lot of conversations. There will continue to be conversations and we will try to do what we think is best for our entire team."

 

Not only were they not smart enough to hold onto Francona in the mid 90's, they apparently were unable to access this article as well.

https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/mlb/indians/cleveland-indians-plesac-clevinger-francona-trust/95-349aa756-847f-4787-acfc-e3956067e3ae

 

Well, I guess they helped to turn Carl Everett around so they can "fix" anyone...

Edited January 26, 2023 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

7 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Oh Lord I just realized this.

Hahn could have paid Clevinger $12 million, but instead he had to pay him $8 million this year and turn $4 million into a buyout.

If Hahn paid him $12 million straight up, and he was suspended half the year, he’d be owed $6 million. But because of Hahn’s shenanigans, if he’s suspended half the year, he is owed $4 million, then a $4 million buyout, for $8 million.

I am not as certain on this, but I think if he’s suspended the whole year he would still be owed his buyout. If that’s right, then he would have been owed $0 if suspended the whole year and instead he’d be owed $4 million for the buyout instead of zero.

Ricky probably handed him between $2 and $4 million because he wanted to defer money to 2024. 

Good work.

Isn’t this more of Jerry’s fault?  How would you have funded the extra $4M in payroll in 2023?

[Balta1701]

26 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Isn’t this more of Jerry’s fault?  How would you have funded the extra $4M in payroll in 2023?

Well first of all, based on how much I was saying they needed to clear payroll at the trade deadline to avoid this situation, I would never have let myself get into this spot.

But if I was hired as a new GM to fix this mess, I would have made harder choices. Either I would have said “I have $17 million to spend so I’m only going to spend $17 million” or I would have traded away a player to clear more money. 

Acting like a capped out NFL team trying to compete for one last year always creates a bill that comes due. A baseball team punting money into next year to sign players this year is just silly, and they deserve to have it bite their GM in the ass.

[Tnetennba]

8 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Oh Lord I just realized this.

Hahn could have paid Clevinger $12 million, but instead he had to pay him $8 million this year and turn $4 million into a buyout.

If Hahn paid him $12 million straight up, and he was suspended half the year, he’d be owed $6 million. But because of Hahn’s shenanigans, if he’s suspended half the year, he is owed $4 million, then a $4 million buyout, for $8 million.

I am not as certain on this, but I think if he’s suspended the whole year he would still be owed his buyout. If that’s right, then he would have been owed $0 if suspended the whole year and instead he’d be owed $4 million for the buyout instead of zero.

Ricky probably handed him between $2 and $4 million because he wanted to defer money to 2024. 

Good work.

Yeah, I don’t see any way he isn’t paid the buyout.  Seems very unlikely the Sox walk away recouping the whole $12M. 

[ChetLemon77]

8 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

If he’s exonerated, I will have to cross that bridge if we get there.  As it stands he’s been credibly accused, if MLB clears him and he remains with the team it’s something I’ll have to live with.  He is still a shitbag either way.  Whether or not I choose to still follow this team afterwards is an unknown.  

There have been a number of "credibly accused" who have been genuinely not guilty of whatever the charge might be (even murder). That's why patience & deliberation are so important ... how many times have we been fooled?

Other than this accusation, is there other evidence that suggests he's a "shitbag?"  Genuinely asking. If it's strictly accusation of philandering, that club is huge. 

[Tnetennba]

2 minutes ago, ChetLemon77 said:

There have been a number of "credibly accused" who have been genuinely not guilty of whatever the charge might be (even murder). That's why patience & deliberation are so important ... how many times have we been fooled?

Other than this accusation, is there other evidence that suggests he's a "shitbag?"  Genuinely asking. If it's strictly accusation of philandering, that club is huge. 

I don’t consider philandering a good character trait, but it’s more than that.  I haven’t done extensive research on the guy, but there is plenty floating around on social media to suggest that he’s a shitbag awful person.  He is also buds with Bauer going back to their Cleveland days and that tells me enough. 

[Quin]

12 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I don’t consider philandering a good character trait, but it’s more than that.  I haven’t done extensive research on the guy, but there is plenty floating around on social media to suggest that he’s a shitbag awful person.  He is also buds with Bauer going back to their Cleveland days and that tells me enough. 

I truly miss the days when the most interesting thing about Bauer was that he flew his drone into the White Sox newly installed scoreboard.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

13 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

as long as Ken Williams is at the top, I just don’t believe anything really changes and I highly doubt Jerry Reinsdorf goes outside the organization for a hire. It’s just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic 

Nothing will change so just kick the can down the road.  This is a Jerry Reinsdorf approved post. 

[ChiSox59]

9 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Oh Lord I just realized this.

Hahn could have paid Clevinger $12 million, but instead he had to pay him $8 million this year and turn $4 million into a buyout.

If Hahn paid him $12 million straight up, and he was suspended half the year, he’d be owed $6 million. But because of Hahn’s shenanigans, if he’s suspended half the year, he is owed $4 million, then a $4 million buyout, for $8 million.

I am not as certain on this, but I think if he’s suspended the whole year he would still be owed his buyout. If that’s right, then he would have been owed $0 if suspended the whole year and instead he’d be owed $4 million for the buyout instead of zero.

Ricky probably handed him between $2 and $4 million because he wanted to defer money to 2024. 

Good work.

This may have also been a tactic Clevinger wanted to employ because he knew this was pending.  

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Well first of all, based on how much I was saying they needed to clear payroll at the trade deadline to avoid this situation, I would never have let myself get into this spot.

But if I was hired as a new GM to fix this mess, I would have made harder choices. Either I would have said “I have $17 million to spend so I’m only going to spend $17 million” or I would have traded away a player to clear more money. 

Acting like a capped out NFL team trying to compete for one last year always creates a bill that comes due. A baseball team punting money into next year to sign players this year is just silly, and they deserve to have it bite their GM in the ass.

We've been over this.  The Sox were 2 GB of 1st place on deadline day.  2 games back of.....the Minnesota Twins.

Selling off pieces at the 2022 TDL was not a realistic option.  

[southsider2k5]

One thing I am going to mention here.  Not being charged, and even not being found guilty does not make a person innocent.  People want to talk about false reporting, but let's point out what the odds of conviction actually are when we are talking about these cases.  Almost every incident that happens in these types of categories does NOT result in a conviction.  It typically takes years of stepping up levels of violence before a conviction can happen, if ever.  We are talking about a conviction rate that is actually lower than the false reporting rate for domestic violence.

[bmags]

I think it's underrated how impactful it would be within an organization like the sox for someone to actually lose their job over poor performance on the field. Poor performance has typically meant a promotion to an assistant to the GM role/professional reinsdorf best friend OR you had to have been convicted of a crime to be removed.

That and I doubt that if you let any other person in the white sox run things it would be the same. Even in the CYA crapfest of sox FO, a Getz led team would be different. A Shirley led team would be different.

A haber-led team? Probably same.