southsider2k5 Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Tnetennba said: In all fairness, this is the White Sox we are talking about. I very much hope you are right, but I have no faith in them and they get zero benefit of the doubt. Until they do the right thing, it is hard not to expect them to do what is wrong. Nothing the Sox have done in recent years gives them any kind of a high moral ground in these cases. Their pattern of behavior as a franchise has been appalling and depressing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 2 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said: Circumstantial evidence and hearsay will rarely do the job no matter how much you want them to. Not saying he's not trash but I still think he ends up pitching and management is hoping this will all fade away. I am officially tired of hearing how photographs are "circumstantial evidence". Quote with any criminal case, the prosecution will rely on circumstantial evidence and physical evidence. Types of physical evidence include: Photographs of broken property, and of wounds or bruises on the victim taken at the time of the report. Photographs are some of the strongest pieces of evidence for the prosecution. Objects found at the crime scene such as a weapon, torn clothing from the victim, and broken furniture. Medical reports from hospitals or doctors concerning the injuries of the victim. A doctor can report certain physical injuries to law enforcement if they suspect they were caused by domestic abuse. While physical evidence is a strong weapon for the prosecution, many domestic abuse claims do not have such evidence at hand and must rely solely on circumstantial evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 12 hours ago, Balta1701 said: Ongoing danger to onesself or the child from the aggressor? The abuser will almost always exact a toll for reporting it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpton Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 19 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Again, somewhere under 2% of domestic abuse instances ever see a conviction. 98% walk free. 25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Photographs and statements from doctors are not considered circumstantial evidence by a court of law. Furthermore, in addition to photographs, circumstantial evidence can be admissible and can support that evidence. MLB specifically has the authority to act and suspend a player regardless of the determination of the legal system. This is 100% explicit in the Domestic Violence Agreement. Baseball is a business. They have rights to protect their business from employing people who abuse women and children that go beyond the requirements for the legal system. Now please stop making me google this. Whilst those things can be used as evidence, they are often not enough to get a conviction, unless there is more evidence, hence the low conviction rate that allows abusers to go free. And I know the MLB can punish without a legal conviction but what I was attempting to say is that their evidential bar will be higher than public opinion or social media. I am by no means defending Clevinger and believe the accusations but getting a conviction is hard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35thstreetswarm Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 "Circumstantial evidence" is one of the more misunderstood legal terms by laypeople. This is true both in terms of what kinds of evidence it describes (DNA evidence, for example, is "circumstantial," as are fingerprints) and what it means. People tend to use the term as some sort of pejorative description, when in fact a huge percentage of evidence that ends up leading to criminal and civil liability is inevitably "circumstantial," including some of the most powerful. You can absolutely convict someone of a criminal offense based on 100% circumstantial evidence. There's a standard jury instruction that says just that. None of this is to comment on the specific evidence available in the Clevinger case, about which I have no idea. But attempting to denigrate the quality of evidence by saying it's "just circumstantial" is pretty meaningless. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpton Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 17 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I am officially tired of hearing how photographs are "circumstantial evidence". They are only circumstantial because unless they show him doing the injuries then they do not prove he did them. Amber Heard had photos but that didn't help her in the appeal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 I hope this guy never throws a pitch for the Sox. And honestly, I don't care if guys "do worse things in other sports" and get a chance to play again. I don't want them to get that chance either. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
he gone. Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 In the end, just like all instances in life ... his future will be determined between the ultimate seriousness of acts v. his talent and contributions he may bring to an employer (aka $$). We all have a line and we draw it in different places. We can go on for 20 more pages discussing where that line is and how good or bad a person that makes us individually. I already was planning on cutting down my Sox attendance this year from a dozen to a handful of games. Them retaining Clevinger would probably reduce me from 5 games to 2-3 games. But if the Sox were winning like 2020/21 and Clevinger had a 2ERA I'd be at 6-8 games. Does that make me a terrible human? I'm not here to be anybody's God or judger. I'm here to have cold beer on a warm day and watch fun baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 39 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: In all fairness, this is the White Sox we are talking about. I very much hope you are right, but I have no faith in them and they get zero benefit of the doubt. Until they do the right thing, it is hard not to expect them to do what is wrong. I get it but the two people saying this doesn't give them the benefit of the doubt for anything. Ever. I'm sure we both have been hearing the same thing that he's not going to pitch for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBooneLoganEra Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: I am officially tired of hearing how photographs are "circumstantial evidence". Ha great that you're tired of it. Doesn't change it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 2 hours ago, Balta1701 said: “Here are photos. The metadata on them will give dates and geotag them to a house owned by Clevinger. I went to a doctor afterwards you can talk to them here, here’s my mothers number I confided in her afterwards, here are the names of three friends I told about what happened, here’s the receipts for the date I contacted a lawyer, here’s my therapist’s information I give permission for them to share details with you, and here’s the name of two of his ex girlfriends you can try to contact them also.” Soxtalk: “how will we ever find corroborating evidence this is the definition of a he said she said case.” If there is such detailed reporting out there, I apologize as I did not see it. I only read the Athletic story and saw the IG photos. If there is such details as you quote on the events linked to the Athletic story again, I did not see them. Soxtalk is overwhelming against him ever pitching for the White Sox but sure make it sound like he whole forum other than yourself thinks the whole story is a fabrication.. A couple of people are stating reasons why we think that he will still pitch. Nobody is claiming they have anything but disdain for him and everyone seems to agree this was a terrible move by the team. Maybe they will release him and potentially eat all the money.....I think they will if the MLB comes back with something along the lines of 80 games as rabbit posted yesterday. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 18 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said: Ha great that you're tired of it. Doesn't change it. No, the fact that it's a lie does though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 6 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said: If there is such detailed reporting out there, I apologize as I did not see it. I only read the Athletic story and saw the IG photos. If there is such details as you quote on the events linked to the Athletic story again, I did not see them. Soxtalk is overwhelming against him ever pitching for the White Sox but sure make it sound like he whole forum other than yourself thinks the whole story is a fabrication.. A couple of people are stating reasons why we think that he will still pitch. Nobody is claiming they have anything but disdain for him and everyone seems to agree this was a terrible move by the team. Maybe they will release him and potentially eat all the money.....I think they will if the MLB comes back with something along the lines of 80 games as rabbit posted yesterday. I have no idea what reporting is available to the league, but if they did a good investigation they should be looking for other people to talk to like that. A whole bunch of people have asserted that there is no evidence whatsoever, that this is a "he said she said" case which is simply false when there are at least photos, which count as physical evidence and could be examined by a medical professional if needed. There is absolutely guaranteed to be metadata on those photos marking when and where they were taken, your phone does that as well. Rabbit suggested 40 games yesterday. I've been suggesting 85. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: I get it but the two people saying this doesn't give them the benefit of the doubt for anything. Ever. I'm sure we both have been hearing the same thing that he's not going to pitch for them. So that's the "insider word"? I'm actually interested in hearing that this time as we haven't gotten that insight yet and they haven't made any real moves to cover the hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35thstreetswarm Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: I am officially tired of hearing how photographs are "circumstantial evidence". 19 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said: Ha great that you're tired of it. Doesn't change it. Photographs can be circumstantial evidence or direct evidence. The relevant distinction is not between "circumstantial" and "physical." It is between "circumstantial" and "direct." Photographs can be offered as either direct evidence (photograph of suspect shooting the person), or circumstantial evidence (photograph of suspect covered in blood holding a gun outside the victim's house minutes after the murder occurred.) Again, though, calling something "circumstantial evidence" does not suggest that it is not powerful or even case-dispositive. The example I just provided is an example of very powerful circumstantial, physical evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 41 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I have no idea what reporting is available to the league, but if they did a good investigation they should be looking for other people to talk to like that. A whole bunch of people have asserted that there is no evidence whatsoever, that this is a "he said she said" case which is simply false when there are at least photos, which count as physical evidence and could be examined by a medical professional if needed. There is absolutely guaranteed to be metadata on those photos marking when and where they were taken, your phone does that as well. Rabbit suggested 40 games yesterday. I've been suggesting 85. If the full reporting is what is in the Athletic story and the IG stuff, there may not be enough to substantiate her story. We can disagree on this but in a vacuum that is what it is. I felt there would be a snowball after the reporting but that does not appear to be the case. The way the White Sox are going, it will probably snow ball around opening day or during he season. It is a terrible look for the White Sox and Hahn and solidifies the notion that Clevenger is a scumbag but it may not keep him off the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBooneLoganEra Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Balta1701 said: No, the fact that it's a lie does though. Lol lot of internet legal experts popping up. Bottom line is often times you could catch the criminal act on camera as it's being committed and see the case tossed. Especially here in Cook County. So yes, the victim taking her own photos rather than an evidence technician while filing a report makes it highly circumstantial and lacking of credibility. Like it or not. I believe it. Dude seems like a shitbag. But the burden of proof is high and a lot of players get investigated for a lot of things that go nowhere. Ideally Sox would've caught this beforehand and not signed him but they didnt. If he's guilty I hope he gets what he deserves but it'll be an uphill battle for the victim. Edited January 31, 2023 by TheBooneLoganEra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 8 hours ago, Harry Chappas said: If there is such detailed reporting out there, I apologize as I did not see it. I only read the Athletic story and saw the IG photos. If there is such details as you quote on the events linked to the Athletic story again, I did not see them. Soxtalk is overwhelming against him ever pitching for the White Sox but sure make it sound like he whole forum other than yourself thinks the whole story is a fabrication.. A couple of people are stating reasons why we think that he will still pitch. Nobody is claiming they have anything but disdain for him and everyone seems to agree this was a terrible move by the team. Maybe they will release him and potentially eat all the money.....I think they will if the MLB comes back with something along the lines of 80 games as rabbit posted yesterday. Sox raised parking to $27 to pay for Clev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colome's Hat Posted February 3, 2023 Share Posted February 3, 2023 I have thought about this some more. As much as I want him gone, releasing him in the middle of an investigation when no ruling has been made would be a labor nightmare. He should be put on administrative leave until this is sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox72 Posted February 3, 2023 Share Posted February 3, 2023 24 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said: I have thought about this some more. As much as I want him gone, releasing him in the middle of an investigation when no ruling has been made would be a labor nightmare. He should be put on administrative leave until this is sorted. You didn’t think about s%*#. You read this somewhere and posted it here. I wish there was a jerk-off emoji. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colome's Hat Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 5 hours ago, Sox72 said: You didn’t think about s%*#. You read this somewhere and posted it here. I wish there was a jerk-off emoji. I have my own trauma that I'm dealing with in regards to this subject. But the fact remains is that due to labor rules established within the MLBPA, they can't do anything until the investigation is concluded and if they tried, it would be a nightmare. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 Hasn't been cut yet. I assume we'll see him pitching for the Sox this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4uckOffCommieScum Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 26 minutes ago, ron883 said: Hasn't been cut yet. I assume we'll see him pitching for the Sox this year. They’re not going to do anything until mlb announces any disciplinary actions. They wouldn’t have to put him on administrative leave until the regular season begins, if it takes that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 1 hour ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said: They’re not going to do anything until mlb announces any disciplinary actions. They wouldn’t have to put him on administrative leave until the regular season begins, if it takes that long. They might actually want to do so in a couple of weeks if they are trying to keep him away from the team. If he's coming to training camp, he's going to be pitching and preparing with everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuban_sammiches Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 (edited) On 2/3/2023 at 4:39 PM, Sox72 said: You didn’t think about s%*#. You read this somewhere and posted it here. I wish there was a jerk-off emoji. Edited February 5, 2023 by cuban_sammiches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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