Mr. Showtime Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Daily Southtown: Thomas, who is living in Las Vegas this offseason, insisted at the end of the 2002 season that general manager Ken Williams was trying to "push him out." A year later, Williams has been hoping Thomas would decline his option so that the Sox could free up some salary in order to make more moves. One insider said Williams had targeted Yankees left-handed hitter Nick Johnson to fill the DH role and split time at first base with Paul Konerko. But little has gone right for Williams so far this offseason. His "Plan A" was signing starting pitcher Bartolo Colon. But, as reported in the Daily Southtown in early October, Colon wants almost $15 million a year and had no intention of signing with the Sox before testing his worth in the free-agent market. Once that happens, the chances of the Sox getting the right-hander back are slim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Daily Southtown: Thomas, who is living in Las Vegas this offseason, insisted at the end of the 2002 season that general manager Ken Williams was trying to "push him out." A year later, Williams has been hoping Thomas would decline his option so that the Sox could free up some salary in order to make more moves. One insider said Williams had targeted Yankees left-handed hitter Nick Johnson to fill the DH role and split time at first base with Paul Konerko. But little has gone right for Williams so far this offseason. His "Plan A" was signing starting pitcher Bartolo Colon. But, as reported in the Daily Southtown in early October, Colon wants almost $15 million a year and had no intention of signing with the Sox before testing his worth in the free-agent market. Once that happens, the chances of the Sox getting the right-hander back are slim. Bartolo Colon...gone... Blowup of the team: Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Thomas and Konerko will almost certainly both be back. No new blood at 1B or DH. Unless a trade occurs, which I'd have to think is unlikely, given the limitations and salaries of FT and PK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Yeah I'd take Nick Johnson in a second... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 IMO Colon was a dissapointment for us this yr.. he was supposed to step in and be a 20 game winner and get us over the hump and he failed.. I say we let him walk and we use the money to get 2 quality pitchers that will make our rotation more solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 IMO Colon was a dissapointment for us this yr.. he was supposed to step in and be a 20 game winner and get us over the hump and he failed.. I say we let him walk and we use the money to get 2 quality pitchers that will make our rotation more solid. Colon gave us a chance to win every time he went out there. The reason we didn't win had nothing to do with he, Buerhle, or Garland. Our top four guys led the majors or were right there in quality starts. A duplicate performance this year would be great. You remove one of these guys and the chances of this suffer greatly. Good pitching is not that readily available. Any other pick-ups will perform at a much lower level than Colon. That is not to say they won't win, Danny Wright won 14 games two years ago. The thing is, a weak bullpen will be greatly exposed. If Colon is not back, there needs to be some huge money spent to build the pen. The Ginter's, Munoz, etc. cause us to have a repeat of this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick03 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 this is my first post here, i was sick of all of the other trolls on the other board, but anyways, i would like to say that im not a huge nick johnson fan. I would prefer thomas to play first, but thats just me. thanks for listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 this is my first post here, i was sick of all of the other trolls on the other board, but anyways, i would like to say that im not a huge nick johnson fan. I would prefer thomas to play first, but thats just me. thanks for listening. Glad to see you here on soxtalk. I have mixed feelings about Nick Johnson , but I am not real keen on the idea of him being here either. I am hoping that Konerko can rebound from a horrendous year. I think the only thing Johnson brings to the Sox is his lefthanded bat. Plus I am not sure many teams would take Konerko's salary. Thomas can play firstbase also when needed and I am glad he isreported to be staying. If you want to win the pennant you don't tear up the present team. Build up the pitching and keep as many of the current players as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 IMO Colon was a dissapointment for us this yr.. he was supposed to step in and be a 20 game winner and get us over the hump and he failed.. I say we let him walk and we use the money to get 2 quality pitchers that will make our rotation more solid. Colon was not a huge disappointment at all in my opinion. I think we all would have liked to see him repeat 20 wins and I think if he is with us next year you will see him win 20 games. A staff with Loaiza, Buerhle and Colon at their best would rank right up there with any teams staff. Add in Garland, who sure looks to be ready to be a steady 15 game winner and it's even better. Finding number 5 will be the chore and it might be right within our own organization. I see where Schoenenweis is said to be looked at as a potential starter. You also have Cotts, Rausch, Adkins, et al. I hope we continue after Colon, but $12M a year is a lot of money and if he really turned that figure down I can't see many others wanting to pay out the huge dollars like they once did. What does he think he can get? My guess is in the $12M-$15M a year range, but economic reality has got to start sinking in with teams. The Yankees would most certainly love to see Bartolo in their mix, but will Bart want to go there? If he really wants to be happy I think the Sox still are in the hunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I would love nothing more then to get rid of Konerko and somehow bring Johnson here. Mark my words, Johnson is going to be a stud in the majors. His plate disipline is remarkable and I think of a left handed version of a young Frank Thomas when I see Johnson(maybe not as much power potential though). The guy posted a .894 OPS in only his 2nd full season, which is quite a bit higher then Konerko's career high for OPS. Most scouts feel that Johnson is going to develop into a .300+/25+/100+ 100+ BB guy. I am a HUGE fan of Nick Johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forkit Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 We won't know what the market for free agents is until several major players sign. IF the quote attributed to Thomas is true, players are already finding the free agent market demand weak, as it was last year. What if they gave a Bart auction that started with his agent demanding $14 million per year and no one came? He wouldn't be the first pitcher to find his agent had overplayed his hand...Look at the gentleman in Minnie that turned down quite a bit from Texas last year, only to find there was no market at less than 1/3 what he turned down... Besides Bart, Andy Pettitte and Millwood, amongst others, are on the market. Who's to say the market won't be weak again? So far, we only have: a] The White Sox admitting they made an offer to Bart worth approximately $12 per year over 3 years. b] Agents, that have apparently shunned an offer, looking for every dollar they can squeeze out of a market. c] Sox fans, squirming in their seats because they sense they may lose Bart to an East Coast team that has deep pockets. I happen to know the Boston owners. Wouldn't surprise me if they decided to be fiscally responsible this year and cut some payroll while they sort out their team. George? He threw lots of money at his team last year and got...No championship. He may re-trench and re-tool, but he may not be as high a bidder as everyone thinks. Afterall, he may find he is bidding against himself, once again. George is not only an owner that loves to win...he also loves to make money. Who knows? Bart may find the latest Sox offer [whatever it turns out to be] the best available, all things considered. Let the cards get played before you jump off the cliff. Forkit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkdog Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 We won't know what the market for free agents is until several major players sign. IF the quote attributed to Thomas is true, players are already finding the free agent market demand weak, as it was last year. Besides Bart, Andy Pettitte and Millwood, amongst others, are on the market. Who's to say the market won't be weak again? So far, we only have: a] The White Sox admitting they made an offer to Bart worth approximately $12 per year over 3 years. b] Agents, that have apparently shunned an offer, looking for every dollar they can squeeze out of a market. Afterall, he may find he is bidding against himself, once again. George is not only an owner that loves to win...he also loves to make money. Who knows? Bart may find the latest Sox offer [whatever it turns out to be] the best available, all things considered. Let the cards get played before you jump off the cliff. Forkit! Totally agree here. I think Colon's decision to turn down the Sox offer may end up working in the Sox favor. Colon's agent is looking for the Sox to bid on Colon against the Yankees and Red Sox. But (according to Gammons) the Red Sox are already committed to $110M in '04, unless they can unload Nomar (which would be a PR nightmare) they likely won't dabble in the Tier I FA market. So that leaves the Yankees. Colon has said he doesn't want to play there. But that is the only team that can afford the $ his agent is looking for. Who's to say that King George won't go after Milwood, Escobar, or resigning Pettitte? In the end the Sox deal may have been the best one out there for him. Colon wanted $12M, and he liked playing here. I think he got talked out of it by his agent. The Sox gave him the best deal - it works out for everyone. I do not fault the Sox organization - this is simply the case of an agent's greed. But if your the agent - this is your client's one shot at the BIG payday. It's hard to pass up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 We won't know what the market for free agents is until several major players sign. IF the quote attributed to Thomas is true, players are already finding the free agent market demand weak, as it was last year. Besides Bart, Andy Pettitte and Millwood, amongst others, are on the market. Who's to say the market won't be weak again? So far, we only have: a] The White Sox admitting they made an offer to Bart worth approximately $12 per year over 3 years. b] Agents, that have apparently shunned an offer, looking for every dollar they can squeeze out of a market. Afterall, he may find he is bidding against himself, once again. George is not only an owner that loves to win...he also loves to make money. Who knows? Bart may find the latest Sox offer [whatever it turns out to be] the best available, all things considered. Let the cards get played before you jump off the cliff. Forkit! Totally agree here. I think Colon's decision to turn down the Sox offer may end up working in the Sox favor. Colon's agent is looking for the Sox to bid on Colon against the Yankees and Red Sox. But (according to Gammons) the Red Sox are already committed to $110M in '04, unless they can unload Nomar (which would be a PR nightmare) they likely won't dabble in the Tier I FA market. So that leaves the Yankees. Colon has said he doesn't want to play there. But that is the only team that can afford the $ his agent is looking for. Who's to say that King George won't go after Milwood, Escobar, or resigning Pettitte? In the end the Sox deal may have been the best one out there for him. Colon wanted $12M, and he liked playing here. I think he got talked out of it by his agent. The Sox gave him the best deal - it works out for everyone. I do not fault the Sox organization - this is simply the case of an agent's greed. But if your the agent - this is your client's one shot at the BIG payday. It's hard to pass up. It is an interesting scenario unfolding. Red Sox are capped out basically. Bart said he does want to be a Yankee. The Dodgers are capped out. Seattle is tapped out, as is Arizona. Atlanta is cutting payroll, as are the Rangers. The Cubs can't and aren't going to pay $15 mil. The Mets are in a youth movement. The Angels seem to be trying for Tejada. Houston is talking to Pettite. The Phillies are looking to spend their money in the pen. The Giants aren't going to be big spenders. Teams such as Detroit, Montreal, KC, Cleveland, Florida, Tampa Bay, Oakland, Minnesota, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Colorado, Toronto, Cincinnati have no money to spend. The Cardinals want starting pitching, but can only afford to deal salary for salary. Really the only teams that have that kind of money this off season are San Diego and Baltimore. Both those teams seem to be looking more at impact hitters, but would they be interested in Colon at $15 mil per year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick03 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Welcome Buddy thanks, i appreciate being among sox fans... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bones Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 We're stuck w/ Frank and Paulie, unless KW can pull off a miraculous move, let's just hope they can produce better than last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 We're stuck w/ Frank and Paulie, unless KW can pull off a miraculous move, let's just hope they can produce better than last year. I think Konerko will have a solid year next season. A $7 million dollar season? No. But is .280, 25 HR and 100 RBI out of the realm of possibilities? I don't believe so. Let's hope I'm right on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Forkit, I agree that too many assumptions are being made. Filing for free agency does not necessarily mean the player will not return to his original club. No one knows what the market will be like this year beyond the same seemingly reasonable assumptions that have been made on here. There are several "big contract" free agents this year, which has to water down the pool somewhat. Beyond that, no one knows how the market will play out. Sure agents are feeling out GM's now, but negotiating cannot begin in earnest until November 10. A GM would be stupid to show his complete hand to an agent right now, so all of this is just speculation. It is that speculation, that I believe will send FT back to the Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I think Rex is right in thefact that a player files for FA consideration doesn't mean he won't be back with his same team. It is more just a prudent move on the prt of the player and his agent to keep all the optios open. Many of them will see the fiscal realities of today's game soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I think Rex is right in thefact that a player files for FA consideration doesn't mean he won't be back with his same team. It is more just a prudent move on the prt of the player and his agent to keep all the optios open. Many of them will see the fiscal realities of today's game soon. Until a couple of dumbass owners blow the doors off by overpaying for 3-4 guys, then the others overreact to grab up the players still available. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 I'm telling you guys; Soriano and Johnson for Maggs and Konerko is a very realistic option. If the Yanks want to dump salary on us, then the Sox take on Weaver or what not, but they still save a ton giving them the money to sign two starters (If you lose Colon, go for Ponson/Pettite or something like that). Don't be shocked if the Sox then move Soriano to CF with Reed/Borchard slated for RF. Then Alomar resigns for a little bit and hits in the leadoff slot with Cabrerra behind him. Then you stick in Soriano in the 3 hole with Frank hitting 4 and Carlos in the 5 hole. Plug Johnson in the 6 hole, Crede in 7, your RF in 8, and Olivo in the 9 hole and your in pretty good shape. If the Sox don't want to resign Roberto, then they can decide whether to move Soriano to CF or play him at 2nd. Payroll wise, if they don't have to take on any Yanks payroll. THey save 22 mill. Colon gets 13 mill or so, giving you 9 mill left. I'd think that 9 mill could easily go into your replacement outfielder/Cabrerra and the rest into the bullpen. If they don't get Colon, pencil in about 7-8 mill for the starting pitcher and you have a bit more to spend elsewhere. I'd say some type of mixture with this would be the Sox best plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn12 Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 I'm telling you guys; Soriano and Johnson for Maggs and Konerko is a very realistic option. If the Yanks want to dump salary on us, then the Sox take on Weaver or what not, but they still save a ton giving them the money to sign two starters (If you lose Colon, go for Ponson/Pettite or something like that). Don't be shocked if the Sox then move Soriano to CF with Reed/Borchard slated for RF. Then Alomar resigns for a little bit and hits in the leadoff slot with Cabrerra behind him. Then you stick in Soriano in the 3 hole with Frank hitting 4 and Carlos in the 5 hole. Plug Johnson in the 6 hole, Crede in 7, your RF in 8, and Olivo in the 9 hole and your in pretty good shape. If the Sox don't want to resign Roberto, then they can decide whether to move Soriano to CF or play him at 2nd. Payroll wise, if they don't have to take on any Yanks payroll. THey save 22 mill. Colon gets 13 mill or so, giving you 9 mill left. I'd think that 9 mill could easily go into your replacement outfielder/Cabrerra and the rest into the bullpen. If they don't get Colon, pencil in about 7-8 mill for the starting pitcher and you have a bit more to spend elsewhere. I'd say some type of mixture with this would be the Sox best plan. Jas, I'm a bit confused...Cabrerra? SUrely you don't mean Floridas Miguel Cabrerra?? Theres NO WAY they let that young man get away, maybe 3 months ago, but not now. Second and short are our concerns in terms of position players.....and after having some time to think about it, I'm not sure if Robbie is our answer. His hitting has just went down south in a hurry. Yeah he can still field better than most second basemen, but with him hitting #1 or 2 in the batting order, thats gonna be tough. Especially if we put CLee in the 3 hole, as I think he should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 I'm telling you guys; Soriano and Johnson for Maggs and Konerko is a very realistic option. If the Yanks want to dump salary on us, then the Sox take on Weaver or what not, but they still save a ton giving them the money to sign two starters (If you lose Colon, go for Ponson/Pettite or something like that). Don't be shocked if the Sox then move Soriano to CF with Reed/Borchard slated for RF. Then Alomar resigns for a little bit and hits in the leadoff slot with Cabrerra behind him. Then you stick in Soriano in the 3 hole with Frank hitting 4 and Carlos in the 5 hole. Plug Johnson in the 6 hole, Crede in 7, your RF in 8, and Olivo in the 9 hole and your in pretty good shape. If the Sox don't want to resign Roberto, then they can decide whether to move Soriano to CF or play him at 2nd. Payroll wise, if they don't have to take on any Yanks payroll. THey save 22 mill. Colon gets 13 mill or so, giving you 9 mill left. I'd think that 9 mill could easily go into your replacement outfielder/Cabrerra and the rest into the bullpen. If they don't get Colon, pencil in about 7-8 mill for the starting pitcher and you have a bit more to spend elsewhere. I'd say some type of mixture with this would be the Sox best plan. Jas, I'm a bit confused...Cabrerra? SUrely you don't mean Floridas Miguel Cabrerra?? Theres NO WAY they let that young man get away, maybe 3 months ago, but not now. Second and short are our concerns in terms of position players.....and after having some time to think about it, I'm not sure if Robbie is our answer. His hitting has just went down south in a hurry. Yeah he can still field better than most second basemen, but with him hitting #1 or 2 in the batting order, thats gonna be tough. Especially if we put CLee in the 3 hole, as I think he should be. The big thing with that lineup that I wouldn't be happy with is sticking with Roberto, but he does do the little things very well and could be a huge asset for Soriano. As far as Cabrerra, I'm referring to Orlando Cabrerra of the Expos who could probably be at around 4 mill a year. He's a very good player that I think could do some good things for the Sox. In the first 3 slots of that lineup, I'd pencil in about 70 stolen bases plus or minus 10. To me that would be really sweet. Of course you would have some strikeouts in that area. If the Sox could get a real leadoff hitter or go get someone like Eckstein and sign Castillo instead (Whose value seems to be dropping, then I wouldn't midn that either; although I think Castillo is a Yank if this deal goes down). Eckstein Castillo Soriano I'd be more then happy with that top of the order. IT would be a different up the middle combo and one that would be rather affordable. That assumes the Angels sign Tejada. If Thomas goes, then the Sox are even more in the clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Don't be shocked if the Sox then move Soriano to CF with Reed/Borchard slated for RF. Then Alomar resigns for a little If the Sox don't want to resign Roberto, then they can decide whether to move Soriano to CF or play him at 2nd. So then you have Reed/Boarchard/Rowand playing Cf and RF? I dont like it. Thats the only prob. with the plan. Robbie actually is pretty important in that mix. No, Soriano would play center. And then one of Reed/Borchard/Rowand would play right. Not sure if thats a great option or not. Then if Thomas goes, you could move Lee to DH and then sign one solid outfielder and then let him play with the others sharing sometime and it wouldn't be terrible. Most likely I'd have Rowand stick around and sign someone with Borchard getting the shot if he had a killer spring. Reed is the future RF/CF imo, but time in Charotte wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Then again Charlotte seems to be the dying zone for sox prospects so maybe we should have him bypass Charlotte. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn12 Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 I'm still thinking that the Sox are gonna give Reed or AaRow every opportunity in March to win the CF job. In-house players have the inside track IMO, and we really don't need to focus on spending $$$ at CF. SS and 2B, along with SP are our needs. I think we are all jumping the gun on Colon. The guy is probably gonna find out that the FA market isn't what his agent is telling him it will be. The big money owners aren't gonna be forking out the dough this year. That $12 mill per season will start looking mighty tempting at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Don't be shocked if the Sox then move Soriano to CF with Reed/Borchard slated for RF. Then Alomar resigns for a little If the Sox don't want to resign Roberto, then they can decide whether to move Soriano to CF or play him at 2nd. So then you have Reed/Boarchard/Rowand playing Cf and RF? I dont like it. Thats the only prob. with the plan. Robbie actually is pretty important in that mix. No, Soriano would play center. And then one of Reed/Borchard/Rowand would play right. Not sure if thats a great option or not. Then if Thomas goes, you could move Lee to DH and then sign one solid outfielder and then let him play with the others sharing sometime and it wouldn't be terrible. Most likely I'd have Rowand stick around and sign someone with Borchard getting the shot if he had a killer spring. Reed is the future RF/CF imo, but time in Charotte wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Then again Charlotte seems to be the dying zone for sox prospects so maybe we should have him bypass Charlotte. I meant who will play 2B if Robbie wasnt signed. Thats why I said he is kinda imporatant if we signed Soriano. Big bucks shouldn't be spent in that area. I'd spend some money at ss or 2nd and then leave the rest to a cheaper signing so I'd just look for Soriano to play there and find a RF and then let the inhouse guys play center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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