Batting Order

[Bob Sacamano]

12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Bobby Witt Jr. Batted 1-6 in all but 34 of his 632 PA's the majority coming 1-3

Julio Rodriguez all but 78 of his 560 PA's came 1-6 , vast majority came 1-3

Steven Kwan 638 PA all but 55 came 1-6 with 576 either 1 or 2

Adley Rutschman 470 PA , all but 9 came batting 1-6

Jeremy Pena 3rd rd. draft pick , slick fielder not expected to be a top hitter in a strong veteran lineup with players who have consistently shown how good they are in a long competitive window .253, .289, .426 , .715 not that impressive except for the 22 HR. July and August struggled pretty bad. STill 321 PA 1-6,  227 7-9

Doesn't seem to me like there was much conventional wisdom going on for the top vote getters for ROY in the AL.

This is so simple and only an idiotic would think otherwise wisdom of yours is just a pathetic attempt use anecdotal evidence to make to make you appear wise. Back it up with facts or shut up.

Yep no team did it. It just didn't happen .

Royals: not a lot of talent to start last year - makes sense Witt would bat high.

Orioles: basically same as above; also, Adley started in 6th spot and they adjusted. Literally what everyone else is basically saying to do: start lower and adjust

Indians: possibly less offensive talent to begin last year than either team above to start last year ha

Jeremy Pena: hit 7th to begin year in front of awful offensive catcher Maldonado and defensive first CF. Moved up consistently when injuries started.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Bob Sacamano

[Tnetennba]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Bobby Witt Jr. Batted 1-6 in all but 34 of his 632 PA's the majority coming 1-3

Julio Rodriguez all but 78 of his 560 PA's came 1-6 , vast majority came 1-3

Steven Kwan 638 PA all but 55 came 1-6 with 576 either 1 or 2

Adley Rutschman 470 PA , all but 9 came batting 1-6

Jeremy Pena 3rd rd. draft pick , slick fielder not expected to be a top hitter in a strong veteran lineup with players who have consistently shown how good they are in a long competitive window .253, .289, .426 , .715 not that impressive except for the 22 HR. July and August struggled pretty bad. STill 321 PA 1-6,  227 7-9

Doesn't seem to me like there was much conventional wisdom going on for the top vote getters for ROY in the AL.

This is so simple and only an idiotic would think otherwise wisdom of yours is just a pathetic attempt use anecdotal evidence to make to make you appear wise. Back it up with facts or shut up.

Yep no team did it. It just didn't happen .

So you’re admitting none of those guys batted in the middle of the order on opening day as rookies?  Yet I’m “an idiotic”?  You seem pretty dead set on proving everyone wrong despite undermining your own points.  Thing is, I don’t actually care about winning an argument with you, so enjoy screaming into the void. 

[35thstreetswarm]

4 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Look you either think this team can win or you think they won't make the playoffs .If they don't make the playoffs again. That's it, the window is done . Massive trades forth coming with the same group who failed to build the sustained winner and long periods of either sucking or mediocrity with little to sustain anything in the minors.

He will struggle all players struggle . Look what happened last year and those guys aren't rookies. Eloy and Robert have struggled to stay healthy for 3 years or not be good at the same time for extended periods.

Are we better off with Sheets and Hamilton, Romy, Marisnick in the OF ? Do you think we will ruin him ? Do you want to wait a month to see if Moncada can slug over .400 ? Enough babying these guys. Treat them like men. Put expectations on them . Failure is part of the process but some of these guys needs to get their acts together or it's going to be a long next 5 years.

No offense, but this series of posts is really weird and erratic -- what's with all the bravado and false choices?  The question of whether to bat a rookie in the middle of the order (from day one) depends on whether you think the team can win?  The question of whether to bat a rookie in the middle of the order depends on whether you want Marisnick and Hamilton in the outfield?  Huh?

The question of whether to bat Colas in the middle of the order boils down to whether you're sold on him as one of our top 3 or 4 hitters *right now.*  Nobody but you is there yet.  I love Colas, but I'm not there yet - way, way too early.  I hope to be there as soon as possible, and if he rakes he'll move up.  Anyway, this isn't even that "hot" a topic.  No reason to get so riled up.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

So you’re admitting none of those guys batted in the middle of the order on opening day as rookies?  Yet I’m “an idiotic”?  You seem pretty dead set on proving everyone wrong despite undermining your own points.  Thing is, I don’t actually care about winning an argument with you, so enjoy screaming into the void. 

ARe you some kind of moron? Are you arguing for only not batting Colas in the middle of the order for just one day , Opening Day ? WTF is that? Talk about undermining your own posts., You don't even think the Sox will have more than 78 wins so what does it matter to you who bats where ?

Plus I don't see how you get that I underminded my own post . I didnt look up where they each batted for just one day . My stats were for where they batted the vast majority of the time they played and it was overwhelmingly not 8th but in the top and middle of the order.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

9 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

No offense, but this series of posts is really weird and erratic -- what's with all the bravado and false choices?  The question of whether to bat a rookie in the middle of the order (from day one) depends on whether you think the team can win?  The question of whether to bat a rookie in the middle of the order depends on whether you want Marisnick and Hamilton in the outfield?  Huh?

The question of whether to bat Colas in the middle of the order boils down to whether you're sold on him as one of our top 3 or 4 hitters *right now.*  Nobody but you is there yet.  I love Colas, but I'm not there yet - way, way too early.  I hope to be there as soon as possible, and if he rakes he'll move up.  Anyway, this isn't even that "hot" a topic.  No reason to get so riled up.

Yeah I’ve realized it’s not worth talking to this guy previously but I fell in the hole.

[Bob Sacamano]

11 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

ARe you some kind of moron? Are you arguing for only not batting Colas in the middle of the order for just one day , Opening Day ? WTF is that? Talk about undermining your own posts., You don't even think the Sox will have more than 78 wins so what does it matter to you who bats where ?

Plus I don't see how you get that I underminded my own post . I didnt look up where they each batted for just one day . My stats were for where they batted the vast majority of the time they played and it was overwhelmingly not 8th but in the top and middle of the order.

 

We’re literally talking about where guys start the year and they work their way up when they prove themselves. No one is saying he should never hit 5th if he earns it. You’re just saying he should from day 1, which is the hill you are dying on but backing off of apparently. 
 

But there’s no discussion with you, only insults (mods see above, bolded) so I’m out.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Bob Sacamano

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

No offense, but this series of posts is really weird and erratic -- what's with all the bravado and false choices?  The question of whether to bat a rookie in the middle of the order (from day one) depends on whether you think the team can win?  The question of whether to bat a rookie in the middle of the order depends on whether you want Marisnick and Hamilton in the outfield?  Huh?

The question of whether to bat Colas in the middle of the order boils down to whether you're sold on him as one of our top 3 or 4 hitters *right now.*  Nobody but you is there yet.  I love Colas, but I'm not there yet - way, way too early.  I hope to be there as soon as possible, and if he rakes he'll move up.  Anyway, this isn't even that "hot" a topic.  No reason to get so riled up.

My arguments were very civil until that guy got personal with me so I got personal back ( riled up as you call it.) Talking about the middle of the order was a way of saying he should be higher than 7th or 8th which is where everyone is putting him which is why i used the 1-6 argument with the other rookies. The OP wanted him platooned with Romy hence the arguments about the other OF's be it Romy, Hamilton or Marisnick.

Why is winning not important to the argument ? It would seem to me that a guy picking the Sox to win 78 games shouldnt give a f*** about where anyone bats so vehemently unless he somehow thinks batting him in the middle of the order will somehow ruin him.

My argument is erratic yet it's his  argument for Colas not to be in the middle of the order only on one day Opening Day if i am to take him literally because no team ( who knows what it's doing) does it ever.

[Tnetennba]

14 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

ARe you some kind of moron? Are you arguing for only not batting Colas in the middle of the order for just one day , Opening Day ? WTF is that? Talk about undermining your own posts., You don't even think the Sox will have more than 78 wins so what does it matter to you who bats where ?

Plus I don't see how you get that I underminded my own post . I didnt look up where they each batted for just one day . My stats were for where they batted the vast majority of the time they played and it was overwhelmingly not 8th but in the top and middle of the order.

 

Am I some kind of moron?  No, no I’m not.  I’m not sure I can say the same for you.  I’m not interested in arguing with you over nonsense that you and you alone are espousing.  You came at me to begin with.  My entire point was that no team puts a rookie in the middle of the order from jump.  Your insistence that I’m wrong was actually undercut my your stat laden diatribe.  Again, I don’t actually care here, but you keep coming at me, so please, kindly stop responding to my posts with your nonsense.  I’m just not interested. 

[TheFutureIsNear]

TA
Benintendi

Robert

Eloy

Colas

Vaughn

Yoan

Yaz

Elvis

Bench- Burger, Alberto, Seby, 1 of Luery/Marisnick/Hamilton/Reyes (they are all bad options, can’t decide)

 

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 3/13/2023 at 6:17 AM, Tnetennba said:

Yeah, no team good at what they do pencils him in any higher than 7th to start.  Once he proves himself he gradually gets gets raises higher in the order.  I hope they don’t platoon him until he shows he can’t handle lefties, but would understand why they might ease him in there too. 

"gets Getts"

11 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

The big leagues are an entirely different animal, and no team is going to put a rookie who has never previously faced big league pitching in the middle of their order on Opening Day.  It just doesn’t happen.  All of your hand wringing and brow beating doesn’t change that.  Long nonsensical diatribes of a message board don’t either.  Oscar Colas might have all of the talent in the world, but he hasn’t proven himself on the biggest stage yet.  Any team that has any clue to how to handle talent, get the most out of players, and knows how to win, knows to ease kids in and put them in the best spots to succeed early.  I don’t know why this is such a hard concert for you, or why you refuse to acknowledge conventional wisdom here.  It really isn’t that difficult though. 

"Hard concert" since you seem to take such joy in my typos/mistakes . Childish I know but below you quoted my error of typing idiotic instead of idiot.

2 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

So you’re admitting none of those guys batted in the middle of the order on opening day as rookies?  Yet I’m “an idiotic”?  You seem pretty dead set on proving everyone wrong despite undermining your own points.  Thing is, I don’t actually care about winning an argument with you, so enjoy screaming into the void. 

No I have no idea where you got that from. I didn't post anything about where they batted on opening day and why does one day even matter . Fine put him 7th or 8th on Opening Day and bat him in the top 6 the rest of the games. Happy now ? Not in the middle of the Order Opening Day. I'm not trying to prove you wrong. It's your opinion yet my opinion is a  "long nonsensical diatribe"  . You can be a Moncada homer and I can't be a Colas homer . Got it.

46 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

We’re literally talking about where guys start the year and they work their way up when they prove themselves. No one is saying he should never hit 5th if he earns it. You’re just saying he should from day 1, which is the hill you are dying on but backing off of apparently. 
 

But there’s no discussion with you, only insults (mods see above, bolded) so I’m out.

See above 1st insult from him not me. If it was only civil discussion   but somehow because I am persistent against the vast majority it makes people angry just like when it happened with Vaughn in 2021 when I said he was a bad OFer and couldnt hit, yet no one wanted him off the field or out of the lineup in what might be the best season of the attempted rebuild or thinking Andrus was a good choice for 2nd base but the vast  or maybe my most persistent opposition thought he was no better than Leury.  I am persistent and outnumbered yet I'm doing the brow beating ?

 It's not my fault because I am persistent and a Colas homer that he feels brow beaten and has to lash out. I don't take that crap lying down. I don't turn the other cheek. We had a crappy .500 team last year and @Tnetennba picked the Sox to win 78 games this year. I don't understand why he cares so much where Colas bats on Opening day. Might as well just send him to the minors and get the extra year if he thinks that instead of arguing how important it is to keep him down in the order. Yet he applauds you suggesting the reason all the rookie of the year candidates ( with the exception of Rodriguez who you didnt mention) in the AL had so many PA's in the top 6 in the order was because they were on either bad teams or  teams had no offense. He thinks the Sox are a bad team and last year they had no offense. He should be telling me, based on his own posts and emojis that Colas should be in the top 6 asap.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

23 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

TA
Benintendi

Robert

Eloy

Colas

Vaughn

Yoan

Yaz

Elvis

Bench- Burger, Alberto, Seby, 1 of Luery/Marisnick/Hamilton/Reyes (they are all bad options, can’t decide)

 

 

 

Don't you know that conventional wisdom for teams that know what they are doing says you can't put Colas 5th on Opening Day ? You'll scar him for life.

[zisk]

11 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Don't you know that conventional wisdom for teams that know what they are doing says you can't put Colas 5th on Opening Day ? You'll scar him for life.

Hit him 7th. But please, play him him everyday. Cant remember how many times TLR would sit a guy 

after he had 2-3 hits the day before. What an asshole

[Tnetennba]

11 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

"gets Getts"

"Hard concert" since you seem to take such joy in my typos/mistakes . Childish I know but below you quoted my error of typing idiotic instead of idiot.

No I have no idea where you got that from. I didn't post anything about where they batted on opening day and why does one day even matter . Fine put him 7th or 8th on Opening Day and bat him in the top 6 the rest of the games. Happy now ? Not in the middle of the Order Opening Day. I'm not trying to prove you wrong. It's your opinion yet my opinion is a  "long nonsensical diatribe"  . You can be a Moncada homer and I can't be a Colas homer . Got it.

See above 1st insult from him not me. If it was only civil discussion   but somehow because I am persistent against the vast majority it makes people angry just like when it happened with Vaughn in 2021 when I said he was a bad OFer and couldnt hit, yet no one wanted him off the field or out of the lineup in what might be the best season of the attempted rebuild or thinking Andrus was a good choice for 2nd base but the vast  or maybe my most persistent opposition thought he was no better than Leury.  I am persistent and outnumbered yet I'm doing the brow beating ?

 It's not my fault because I am persistent and a Colas homer that he feels brow beaten and has to lash out. I don't take that crap lying down. I don't turn the other cheek. We had a crappy .500 team last year and @Tnetennba picked the Sox to win 78 games this year. I don't understand why he cares so much where Colas bats on Opening day. Might as well just send him to the minors and get the extra year if he thinks that instead of arguing how important it is to keep him down in the order. Yet he applauds you suggesting the reason all the rookie of the year candidates ( with the exception of Rodriguez who you didnt mention) in the AL had so many PA's in the top 6 in the order was because they were on either bad teams or  teams had no offense. He thinks the Sox are a bad team and last year they had no offense. He should be telling me, based on his own posts and emojis that Colas should be in the top 6 asap.

Jesus Christ dude, let it go.  Your need to be right about some really absurd is a weird hill to die on.  I have asked you to stop responding to my posts, trying to take the high road and leave it be, because trying to debate you is obviously futile.  And yet somehow I’m being childish?  

Grow up, let it go, move on, and please leave me alone. 
 

[TheFutureIsNear]

I really don’t understand the trepidation of batting Colas 5th. Is batting 5th in a lineup on a team projected to miss the playoffs in April in front of a 1/2 full home crowds really going to be “too much” for him? We need a LH bat in the middle of the lineup and it’s Colas or Yaz…I’m taking Colas every day for that spot. 
 

Not to mention that this isn’t a 20 year old kid fresh out of college or anything. This is a 24 year old man that left his home at 19 to play professional baseball (albeit in a lower league). I think he’ll be just fine playing for the Sox, not like this team is going to get any spotlight or media attention. Also don’t see how sandwiching him between 2 of our best hitters is a bad thing, the lineup protection should only help. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 3/15/2023 at 6:58 AM, Tnetennba said:

Jesus Christ dude, let it go.  Your need to be right about some really absurd is a weird hill to die on.  I have asked you to stop responding to my posts, trying to take the high road and leave it be, because trying to debate you is obviously futile.  And yet somehow I’m being childish?  

Grow up, let it go, move on, and please leave me alone. 
 

When I post my opinion on something I take many things into consideration, what I think the chances of the team of making the playoffs, how I think those chances can be improved, my opinions on the ability of the players and the players he is surrounded by. All baseball talk and MY OPINION. I don't care about conventional wisdom in player development in certain situations if I don't think it will hurt the team or the player.

Your answers to me were condescending and insulting when you talk about conventional wisdom and no team that knows what they are doing would do what I suggest. There are a lot of teams doing things a lot of different ways. There are no absolutes and stating things absolutely as you do and asking me why I can't understand that concept is insulting . There are no absolutes and you are asking me to run with the pack of  hive thought. You can state your opinion without being that way.

You are telling me I am wrong because I don't agree with people you consider wiser then I am. Opinions have nothing to do with intelligence or what the majority thinks .That is not a valid argument. As our parents used to ask, If everyone was jumping off a building would you do it ? That was our parents' way of saying have the confidence to draw on your own innate intelligence and depend on your own judgement, having your own views and values to guide you, rather than someone else's.

There are many times I think the same way as the majority and some where I don't. When I don't that's when things get ugly  and it is never me that starts the ugliness.

 I don't care about being right so much as I care about being asked to join with the rest of the majority in thinking the same way. Just because you get angry will not dissaude me from MY OPINION even when it's different than the majority and the majority attempts to silence me by trying to make me feel wrong and outnumbered . This is why I bring up past attempts to do the same things and the outcomes . I know no one likes a braggart but I feel it's the best way to show that even when in the minority of popular opinion that people can be right and encourage them to stick to their guns and continue to think independently.

 

[pcq]

On 3/15/2023 at 9:17 AM, TheFutureIsNear said:

I really don’t understand the trepidation of batting Colas 5th. Is batting 5th in a lineup on a team projected to miss the playoffs in April in front of a 1/2 full home crowds really going to be “too much” for him? We need a LH bat in the middle of the lineup and it’s Colas or Yaz…I’m taking Colas every day for that spot. 
 

Not to mention that this isn’t a 20 year old kid fresh out of college or anything. This is a 24 year old man that left his home at 19 to play professional baseball (albeit in a lower league). I think he’ll be just fine playing for the Sox, not like this team is going to get any spotlight or media attention. Also don’t see how sandwiching him between 2 of our best hitters is a bad thing, the lineup protection should only help. 

He has waited a long time and is ready to kick some MLB bootay.

[VAfan]

No one here has any real idea how these guys are going to hit this year.  

Grandal went from the best hitter on the team in 2021 (155 OPS+)  to its worst regular in 2022 (64 OPS+). 

Moncada went from a 116 OPS+ to a 76 OPS+

Luis Robert went from 154 OPS+ to 109 OPS+

Eloy went from 99 OPS+ to leading the team with 140 OPS+

Elvis Andrus was the Sox' 3rd best hitter while he was with the team at 116 OPS+

Andrew Vaughn elevated from 91 OPS to 111 OPS+. 

Tim Anderson only played 79 games. 

*********

That being said, if you project each player to be the best version of themselves, here's the order I would use:

1. Anderson.  Still the sparkplug of the team.

2. Robert.  Biggest upside of anyone.  Speed should put him near the top. 

3. Moncada.  His best version is better than Benitendi.

4. Eloy.  The HR masher.

5. Benintendi. Gets on base for Vaughn.  

6. Vaughn.  Key RBI spot

7. Colas. Lefty could move up if he mashes. 

8. Grandal/Zavala.  Grandal might deserve to be higher, but plays the least. 

9. Andrus. Need him to reprise last year's numbers for the Sox

[SCCWS]

7 hours ago, VAfan said:

No one here has any real idea how these guys are going to hit this year.  

Grandal went from the best hitter on the team in 2021 (155 OPS+)  to its worst regular in 2022 (64 OPS+). 

Moncada went from a 116 OPS+ to a 76 OPS+

Luis Robert went from 154 OPS+ to 109 OPS+

Eloy went from 99 OPS+ to leading the team with 140 OPS+

Elvis Andrus was the Sox' 3rd best hitter while he was with the team at 116 OPS+

Andrew Vaughn elevated from 91 OPS to 111 OPS+. 

Tim Anderson only played 79 games. 

*********

That being said, if you project each player to be the best version of themselves, here's the order I would use:

1. Anderson.  Still the sparkplug of the team.

2. Robert.  Biggest upside of anyone.  Speed should put him near the top. 

3. Moncada.  His best version is better than Benitendi.

4. Eloy.  The HR masher.

5. Benintendi. Gets on base for Vaughn.  

6. Vaughn.  Key RBI spot

7. Colas. Lefty could move up if he mashes. 

8. Grandal/Zavala.  Grandal might deserve to be higher, but plays the least. 

9. Andrus. Need him to reprise last year's numbers for the Sox

I would only say that 3rd is a key position which Abreu has held for a while. This is fine to start the year but if Moncada struggles early, you cannot be as patient with a 3 hitter as some other spots.  I am not sure Benintendi is a 3 , as much as a 6 or 7, so I am not sure how we reassign the 3 if Moncada struggles

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, SCCWS said:

I would only say that 3rd is a key position which Abreu has held for a while. This is fine to start the year but if Moncada struggles early, you cannot be as patient with a 3 hitter as some other spots.  I am not sure Benintendi is a 3 , as much as a 6 or 7, so I am not sure how we reassign the 3 if Moncada struggles

Since a RHP will be on the mound roughly 70% of the time and if we assume Anderson will always be the lead off hitter then its important to go RLRL even RLLR   in the order. Now you can always start it LRLR which is better against RHP especially if Moncada leads off because of his OBP, then ideally Tim singles him to 2nd or 3rd .Then you have a lefty to bat 3rd against the RHP .Maybe that's Grandal but he may hit into a lot of DP's unless you steal or hit and run with Anderson . Or you can just put Eloy  3rd and go with Grandal 4th but still that DP looms. With Grandal and Vaughn DP's are always a factor.

A lot of different ways to play it against a RHP. Moncada ,Benintendi ( 2 LHB so if Moncada gets on you want Benintendi to hit behind the runner (pull it). If you go LRL its Moncada, Anderson Benintendi ? But probably rather see Eloy 3rd if you need a HR late in the game or in the 1st for that matter.

The problem becomes as @VAfan pointed out that we have no idea how any of these guys are going to hit or the amount of HR's. We can take our best guesses based of numerous factors. We have a bunch of guys capable of 10- 20 HRs and maybe 4 -6 with 20+ HR  potential, Eloy,Vaughn, Robert,  Grandal and maybe Moncada &Colas.

The trouble is Colas is a Rookie. Moncada hit 25 in the bouncy ball year but will he ever do it again ? Vaughn and Robert haven't done it before, Grandal has done it 5 times but at this point of his career can he do it again ? Eloy hit 31 once and we always hear predictions that one day he'll hit 40 but hasn't been above 16 since because of injuries.

Grifol will have to figure things out fast. He should have a lot of tools at his disposal with all the different splits and data to analyze things . But a new season and early health hopefully makes last years bad data obsolete.

A fast start in the 1st 25 games would mean decent pitching along with better than last year hitting. Go Sox !!

Edited March 18, 2023 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

Colas is the answer to many questions involving the White Sox during Spring Training because the rookie might be an important component to their lineup and defense. Chicago's No. 2 prospect figured to have the edge in right field entering Pedro Grifol’s first camp as manager, although nobody has said it on record nor will do so until the Opening Day lineups are officially announced. But Colas has earned his spot with a strong work ethic in Arizona, along with solid production overall. Has the left-handed power bat in a right-handed heavy lineup been perfect? No, but he has a willingness to learn from his mistakes and improve on such things as hitting the cutoff man and secondary leads. Colas doesn’t need to be a featured player in this veteran lineup but could end up being a significant producer. -- Scott Merkin

https://www.mlb.com/news/biggest-impressions-spring-training-2023

[CentralChamps21]

vs RHP I would go Moncada, Anderson, Benintendi, Eloy, Robert, Grandal, Vaughn, Colas, Andrus

vs LHP, drop Moncada to 7th and leave the rest in the same order.

[ChiSox59]

Insert Simpsons walk in and walk out gif. 

[Tnetennba]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Insert Simpsons walk in and walk out gif. 

alternatively 

[Tnetennba]

[flavum]

So now that we know the stating 9 is healthy, how do you line them up vs Framber?