magglio ordonez

[marsh]

ok, i was going to just add this to beastly's post, but i think i'll start a new topic because, well, i don't start many new topics so i thought what the hey.

 

let's take a look at magg's production and salary history.

 

'97, rookie year, 21 games, salary $150k Age 23

Runs 12 HR's 4 RBI's 11 AVG. .319 OBP .338 OPS .918

 

'98 1st full year, 145 games, salary $175k, age 24

R 70 HR14 RBI 65 AVG .282 OBP .326 OPS .741

 

'99 2nd full year, 157 games, salary $305k, age 25

R 100 HR30 RBI 117 AVG .301 OBP .349 OPS .859 13SB's

 

'00 3rd full year, 153 games, salary $425k, age 26

R 102 HR32 RBI 126 AVG .315 OBP .371 OPS .917 18SB's

 

'01 4th full year, 160 games, salary $3.75 mil, age 27

R 97 HR31 RBI 113 AVG .305 OBP .382 OPS .915 25SB's

 

'02 5th full year, 153 games, salary $6.5 mil, age 28

R116 HR38 RBI 135 AVG .320 OBP .381 OPS .978

 

'03 6th full year, 160 games, salary $9 mil, age 29

R95 HR29 RBI 99 AVG .317 OBP .380 OPS .926

 

career averages

AVG .307 OBP .365 SLG .527 OPS .892

career totals

R 592 HR178 RBI 666

salary total $20.3 million dollars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

basically the white sox have a huge bargain in magglio ordonez thus far in his major league career. his production has far exceeded what his salary would have been on the open market. fortunatly for the sox you basically own a player for the first six years i believe, and really do not have to begin to pay relative market value until you reach arbitration. anyway the point is the the sox organization has gotten a hell of a lot of production for the money spent. and that may even be an understatement.

 

magglio will enter the '04 season at the age of 30. it seems that most major leaguer's have thier prime years between the ages of 27-33. plus with the conditioning players go through they seem to be able to sustain thier perfomance even longer now. point is it is highly possible that we are just hitting the tip of the iceberg with maggs and at worst he should at least put up the number's he's averaged for the last three years, which are damn good.

 

people are saying things like maggs isn't worth $14 mil and we can spend that on two or three good players yada yada yada. but when maggs signed this contract i don't remember anyone saying that we overpaid, if anything we were getting a bargain while guys like a-rod, jeter, manny and others were getting much larger contracts for mucho bucks and years. the fact is that the last two years the the market for free agents has been mostly garbage and now we say that maggs is not worth 14 mil. two years from now that could all change again and 14 mil could be a bargain, nobody knows.

 

the whole point is here we have a player who has been with the sox his whole career, a fan favorite, and a good guy from all i've read and heard. a player who thus far in his career for this organization has produced far and away more than what he has made in salary, and now because next year he makes $14 million we should trade him. not only do i feel maggs deserves the $14 million he will make next year, but the sox should try very hard to lock him up to another three to four year deal from between $40 mil and $55mil.

 

maggs is the kind of guy you try to acquire, not trade away because the short term market for players is low right now. i think this offseason is huge for the sox. picking a manager (ozzie i would like, but that's another thread) FA signings/trades can determine what this team is going to do the next few years. so if anyone is still reading this long post (sorry) Go Sox!

[cwsox]

I for one want Mags to stay - if we don't show loyalty we will never get it, he is a franchise player, and he can carry the team and you wait a long time to get a player like that - why trade all that away?

[The Critic]

I for one want Mags to stay - if we don't show loyalty we will never get it, he is a franchise player, and he can carry the team and you wait a long time to get a player like that - why trade all that away?

agreed - I'd rather trade prospects who may or may not develop than a guy you can rely on for consistently good production.

Ordonez is solid, and while I realize that most people here are not anxious to trade him, only exploring possibilities, I really would rather the Sox hang onto Ordonez if at all possible.

[elrockinMT]

I also think Ordonez should stay. He is a player you build around and not trade away. I read a reporter's column on one of the Chicago papers website about how Ordonez failed to perform in Minnesota when going after a ball in the gap, which should have been caught and the inference is that the Sox lost their chance to win a title because of that. I thought at the time the article was ridiculous because no one player in once situation in one game can be held responsible for a team losing the pennant considering rhe season is 162 games long. If the reasoning is correct then the Bosox should dump Pedro Martinez right now today. Te Yankees should get rid of Pettite, Soriano and Jeter, et al, right now today becasue of their losing the WS.

 

I want to keep Ordonez and others like Colon and Gordon, etc, but the refusal of Sox ownership to at least put out enough money to keep what we have may lead to trades of our stars like Ordonez, Lee, etc. One baseball columnist said that KW would be reluctant to trade Lee or Ordonez, but note that it didn't say he wouldn't and that's scary to me.

[Harry Chappas]

There is no doubt that Maggs Ordonez is great player and potential hall of famer if he continues to progress. The problem has to do with the fact that we can not afford him. If we were the Yanks, Cards, Mets, cubs, etc. this would not ba a topic of conversation. For every bad contract we have and overpay (Koch, Konerko, Thomas,) the worse off we are.

 

Pitching wins, plain and simple. How many batting champs carry a team to and through the playoffs? How many Cy Young award winners? If the ability of Bartolo Colon was not in the discussion, the thought of Maggs being traded would not come up. I believe that as impressive as his stats are, Maggs does not produce in the clutch as a $14M/yr player should. Case in point, 2000 playoffs and this past season in the last fateful week against the Twins. Teams are built and win with players that know and play to win on a daily basis and a stong pitching staff. I am not sure Maggs Ordonez is capable of this. Don't tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit it. maggs at $8-10M I can handle anything more than this and we are overstating are capacity to compete. See sammy sosa for proof of this.

[cwsox]

Colon's 2003 numbers were so great we'd remove a long time estblished member of our team for a guy who won't sign with us?

 

I have never seen what others see in Colon and I sure didn't see it in 2003.

[aboz56]

Colon's 2003 numbers were so great we'd remove a long time estblished member of our team for a guy who won't sign with us?

 

I have never seen what others see in Colon and I sure didn't see it in 2003.

I agree with cw on Colon.

 

He ate innings but by no means did he dominate anyone or in anyway justify a salary of $12 mil per season.

 

Plus, there's no telling how long that tub of goo frame will hold up.

 

If he wants to go elsewhere and take the money, fine by me.

[forkit]

The problem is that like Frank, his salary curve out-paced the market. Like Konerko, he signed a contract right before player values declined drastically. I think he'd like to stay, but he probably isn't worth $14 mil a year--and we won't know what he's worth until other major names sign this year. Until then, the question is: Does Maggs realize the salary curves have shifted to a lower level and will he be willing to take his $14 mil and renegotiate a long-term contract at a "market rate." So perhaps he takes $10 mil a year for the next five years but he defers a portion and doesn't actually take a pay cut for 2004, and at the same time helps the team acquire more talent.

 

IF he chooses to believe his next contract should be $14+ mil a year, I don't think he is living in reality and is getting bad advice from his agent. Simply put, other than Jim Thome, prices went down dramatically last year and until someone else makes $15-18 mil with a new contract, he isn't "worth" $14 mil.

 

That's just plain economic facts. Not baseball "I love this guy and I root for him" thinking...just business.

 

Forkit!

[aboz56]

The problem is that like Frank, his salary curve out-paced the market. Like Konerko, he signed a contract right before player values declined drastically. I think he'd like to stay, but he probably isn't worth $14 mil a year--and we won't know what he's worth until other major names sign this year. Until then, the question is: Does Maggs realize the salary curves have shifted to a lower level and will he be willing to take his $14 mil and renegotiate a long-term contract at a "market rate." So perhaps he takes $10 mil a year for the next five years but he defers a portion and doesn't actually take a pay cut for 2004, and at the same time helps the team acquire more talent.

 

IF he chooses to believe his next contract should be $14+ mil a year, I don't think he is living in reality and is getting bad advice from his agent. Simply put, other than Jim Thome, prices went down dramatically last year and until someone else makes $15-18 mil with a new contract, he isn't "worth" $14 mil.

 

That's just plain economic facts. Not baseball "I love this guy and I root for him" thinking...just business.

 

Forkit!

Great post.

 

And this is exactly why he is either going to have to restructure his deal with some kind of extension, be traded or hurt the team's ability to improve drastically by taking up that much salary.

[The Bones]

Magglio didn't even have a great year last year but he had a better year than anyone else on the sox. I still don't think we've seen the best of maggs, he's gonna have a couple career years soon. Keep him.

[Rex Hudler]

Allow me to be the dissenting opinion here......

 

1. The market has changed and "fair-market value" is not what it once was.

 

2. All players who succeed early earn "less than fair market value" because of the way the salary structure is set up. While I think loyalty is good, unfortuantely the way the salary structure of the game is set up (and the players are just as much to blame for this as anyone), it hits the backburner once agents begin to negotiate. Loyalty also works both ways.

 

3. Maggs may well be worth $14 million to a team with a $100 million+ payroll, but everything is relative. His value to a team with a $60-$65 million payroll is lessened because of the difficulty it causes in putting together the rest of the team. If Maggs makes over 20% of the team's payroll, it is fair to say that the team will have a more difficult time securing the right mix of players to help the team win. Can that be overcome? Sure But is it likely? No

 

Maggs offensively is a great player. But a game-changing superstar he is not. If a team has only a $60-$65 million payroll, at some point it has to assess a value based on production. In the big picture, can the Sox get the same production for less money or better production via additional players with the same money?

 

These are legitimate questions in the economic environment of today's game.

 

The Sox have to consider trading Maggs because of other contracts the team must bear. If Frank comes back, which it looks like he will, that will give the Sox even less payroll flexibility. If they cannot trade Konerko.... even less. To an extent, Maggs may be bearing the brunt of others bad contracts.

 

All this said, I am not looking for the Sox to trade him, but from a business perspective based on the game today, considering this to be an option is smart business. You may not like it, but it is reality the way the game is today.

[Guest JimH]

The issue is, why would the Sox entertain the idea of trading Ordonez?

 

Because of their desire to acquire or keep as much pitching as they can.

 

Let's ask another question:

 

Why are they constantly in a state of having to go out and acquire pitching?

 

Answer:

 

Because this organization consistently fails at developing young pitchers.

 

Yeah, I understand guys get hurt, the odds are long to make the majors, etc. but the White Sox have expended more draft choices on pitching than just about any other team (no, I don't have the draft numbers handy). In '99 for example, 14 out of their first 15 drafts were pitchers, and it's now almost 5 years later and many, many of those guys haven't panned out.

 

Bottom line, they need to take a good hard look at how they develop pitchers and why their guys are not getting to the big leagues with any regularity.

 

Look at the top 30 prospects from BA last year for the White Sox ... granted, several were traded, but you'd be hard pressed to find any who took a significant step up performance-wise ... Jeremy Reed notwithstanding. Maybe Ryan Wing too. But there were many, many guys who regressed.

 

Thing is, they get a little defensive when asked about this issue. I've raised it at Sox Fest for the last 2 years, and it's always, "we turn out as many pitchers as any team, and we'll defend our developmental staff to the end". I just don't buy it.

 

Even more frustrating, the Cubs went as far as they did because young pitching stepped up. With Prior, everyone pretty much knew he'd be an ace. But Zambrano? He was lights out for a while there. The Sox haven't had a young arm come in and be a "difference maker" since Buerhle. That's what, 3 years ago now??

[Rex Hudler]

But Zambrano? He was lights out for a while there.

 

Keep in mind that Zambrano labored in AAA for 2 1/2 years before getting to the Majors and only in his second year did he really begin to develop like they thought he would.

 

Sox fans would have already crucified him 10 times over for getting stuck in AAA after being on the fast track.

[The Critic]

The problem is that like Frank, his salary curve out-paced the market. Like Konerko, he signed a contract right before player values declined drastically. I think he'd like to stay, but he probably isn't worth $14 mil a year--and we won't know what he's worth until other major names sign this year. Until then, the question is: Does Maggs realize the salary curves have shifted to a lower level and will he be willing to take his $14 mil and renegotiate a long-term contract at a "market rate." So perhaps he takes $10 mil a year for the next five years but he defers a portion and doesn't actually take a pay cut for 2004, and at the same time helps the team acquire more talent.

 

IF he chooses to believe his next contract should be $14+ mil a year, I don't think he is living in reality and is getting bad advice from his agent. Simply put, other than Jim Thome, prices went down dramatically last year and until someone else makes $15-18 mil with a new contract, he isn't "worth" $14 mil.

 

That's just plain economic facts. Not baseball "I love this guy and I root for him" thinking...just business.

 

Forkit!

This is now a different conversation.

 

I don't recall if anyone had previously suggested that Magglio restructure his contract.

It was just a "trade Magglio for pitching" discussion.

If Ordonez is asked to, and refuses, then the discussion is entirely different.

The restructuring option is a lot better of an idea than just saying "get rid of him for pitching".

[Harry Chappas]

Would you rather have;

 

Cotts or Rauch and Ordonez = $14.5M

 

or

 

Reed and Colon = $14.5; if you give Colon is asking price.

 

In a round about way my point is you can get a good rightfielder much easier than you can a good starting pitcher. Starting pitching takes you to and through the playoffs. Hitting is fun to watch on a Tuesday eve in July. Look at Ordonez numbers in April, May and September. He will leave next year for a warmer/indoor climate because that is when he is a top notch player. He is not a cold weather player, IMHO.

 

Jeff Conine was picked up for the pennant push. There are these types of guys out there. Prime pitchers wheather Bartolo Colon or not, are not out there. If E-Lo, Buerhle, Garland, Cotts and Rauch get you excited for this upcoming year.....well I guess we have different views.

 

I DO NOT WANT TO GET RID OF ORDONEZ BUT IF WE ARE BETTER FOR IT, GO AHEAD.

[marsh]

[

This is now a different conversation.

 

I don't recall if anyone had previously suggested that Magglio restructure his contract.

It was just a "trade Magglio for pitching" discussion.

If Ordonez is asked to, and refuses, then the discussion is entirely different.

The restructuring option is a lot better of an idea than just saying "get rid of him for pitching".

i think it would be wrong for the sox to ask magglio to re-structure his contract. look at the numbers he put up in '99 and '00 when he made less than a million for those two years combined. when the sox gave him this current contract i would guess their thinking involved rewarding him for those years where he made jack in addition to what they viewed his future performance would be.

 

well he kept up his part of the deal with his numbers in my opinion and to turn around and ask him to re-negotiate for less money, i think would be insulting. if the situation were reversed and he was asking for more money because the market had spiraled upward how do you think fans and management would react?

 

my guess would be they would tell him to honor the contract he signed. an example would be scottie pippen.

[aboz56]

[

This is now a different conversation.

 

I don't recall if anyone had previously suggested that Magglio restructure his contract.

It was just a "trade Magglio for pitching" discussion.

If Ordonez is asked to, and refuses, then the discussion is entirely different.

The restructuring option is a lot better of an idea than just saying "get rid of him for pitching".

i think it would be wrong for the sox to ask magglio to re-structure his contract. look at the numbers he put up in '99 and '00 when he made less than a million for those two years combined. when the sox gave him this current contract i would guess their thinking involved rewarding him for those years where he made jack in addition to what they viewed his future performance would be.

 

well he kept up his part of the deal with his numbers in my opinion and to turn around and ask him to re-negotiate for less money, i think would be insulting. if the situation were reversed and he was asking for more money because the market had spiraled upward how do you think fans and management would react?

 

my guess would be they would tell him to honor the contract he signed. an example would be scottie pippen.

He doesn't have to restructure anything. And of course, we're not obligated to keep him on the Southside either. I love Mags, I think he's a great player, a good guy in the Clubhouse and an overall oustanding citizen. But anything to improve the Sox I am in favor of. If trading him improves our team, I have no problem with it.

[Rex Hudler]

Only problem with that plan is how do you sit him down when he is in Venezuela? The team negotiates with the agent, not the player.

[Rex Hudler]

If im Kw, and I want to keep my Franchise player around, I meet with Maggs and his agent, in Venezuela. Show Maggs that he is a priority and the Sox really want him.

So would I. That may or may not work, depending on the player and the agent.

[marsh]

[

He doesn't have to restructure anything.  And of course, we're not obligated to keep him on the Southside either.  I love Mags, I think he's a great player, a good guy in the Clubhouse and an overall oustanding citizen.  But anything to improve the Sox I am in favor of.  If trading him improves our team, I have no problem with it.

i agree with that and i think 99% of sox fans would support any move made that would better the team. i can't really see a sox fan saying "don't trade maggs, i don't care if they give us josh beckett, miguel cabrera and throw in brad penney"

 

i just think we all have different opinions on what would actually make the team better. which is why this message board can be very fun and entertaining

[Harry Chappas]

I think if KW were to fly down, it shows that the Sox are willing to kinda bend of backwards for him, just to show Maggs has to do the same.

Who is going to pay for that flight?

[marsh]

I disagree. I think you sit down with Maggs and basically say listen, "We arent the New York Yankess, or the Boston Red Sox, or St. Louis Cardnials. Its not in are limits to have are payroll in the 80's 90's and 100's of millions of $. You have been a White Sox your entire carrer, the orginization loves you, the city loves you, and the fans love you. Right now, your budget doesnt fit around are plan to make this team better. Maggs, we want you to stay, but to make that possible, we need to restrcuture the base of your contract."

 

Now I know thats not the way baseball works, but I think you just sit him down and tell him basically were not a big money team, so take it or leave it.

tony, we are on to something now. the sox are not New York or Boston or LA. This is Chicago. now tell me what is wrong with this picture?

 

i think that we (the fans) have been beaten over the head by MLB (in general) and the white sox (specifically) that they "can't afford it" and "can't spend a dollar when you only have fifty cents", which in my opinion is baloney, that we start to believe it.

 

what if i asked you or any sox fan how would you like to have alex rodriguez at short for the sox next year? the answer would probably range from, the sox would never take on that big a contract, or we couldn't afford any other players with him on the team. that would be my reaction.

 

i think that we confuse two numbers. the amount the sox are willing to pay, and the amount the sox can afford to pay. in my opinion the sox management if they wanted to could have a 100 million plus payroll. i think that they have the means or could find the way to come up with the money without much effort. but they choose to go the financially sound or cheap way (whatever way you want to look at it.)

 

there is a reason that we only make the playoffs about once every ten years, and the reason is is because it takes an enormous amount of luck to be successful in the sox system. we rely on our scouting, drafting, plug ins, and the occasional big ticket item, and there is absolutely no margin for error. the years we made the playoffs everything seemed to go our way. no major injuries, guys having career years. we won't cover our mistakes by throwing money at it. now i think it's most important to spend money wisely and not just throw 100+million at the wall and hope something sticks, but the sox, iIF THEY WANTED could do any of the following.

 

trade for a-rod. if we took on his contract the rangers would require probably a couple of prospects, hell they might even take pk off our hands for relieving them of the enormous burden of a-rod's contract.

 

sign bartolo

 

sign vlad

 

the possibilities are endless. i doubt this management would ever do these things but i believe that if they wanted to they could. the financial constraints are self imposed, and i'm sure that bud selig appreciates us not being another NY. but i may be wrong about it all.

[rafacosta]

I for one want Mags to stay - if we don't show loyalty we will never get it, he is a franchise player, and he can carry the team and you wait a long time to get a player like that - why trade all that away?

I agree with you CW, Maggs is the most consitent player in our team, ok he hits in a lot of DPs, but every year he is there with .300 AVG, 370 OBP, 30 HRs, 100 RBIs and is a team player. We dont find too many players like him in the league.

[Harry Chappas]

I disagree. I think you sit down with Maggs and basically say listen, "We arent the New York Yankess, or the Boston Red Sox, or St. Louis Cardnials. Its not in are limits to have are payroll in the 80's 90's and 100's of millions of $. You have been a White Sox your entire carrer, the orginization loves you, the city loves you, and the fans love you. Right now, your budget doesnt fit around are plan to make this team better. Maggs, we want you to stay, but to make that possible, we need to restrcuture the base of your contract."

 

Now I know thats not the way baseball works, but I think you just sit him down and tell him basically were not a big money team, so take it or leave it.

tony, we are on to something now. the sox are not New York or Boston or LA. This is Chicago. now tell me what is wrong with this picture?

 

i think that we (the fans) have been beaten over the head by MLB (in general) and the white sox (specifically) that they "can't afford it" and "can't spend a dollar when you only have fifty cents", which in my opinion is baloney, that we start to believe it.

 

what if i asked you or any sox fan how would you like to have alex rodriguez at short for the sox next year? the answer would probably range from, the sox would never take on that big a contract, or we couldn't afford any other players with him on the team. that would be my reaction.

 

i think that we confuse two numbers. the amount the sox are willing to pay, and the amount the sox can afford to pay. in my opinion the sox management if they wanted to could have a 100 million plus payroll. i think that they have the means or could find the way to come up with the money without much effort. but they choose to go the financially sound or cheap way (whatever way you want to look at it.)

 

there is a reason that we only make the playoffs about once every ten years, and the reason is is because it takes an enormous amount of luck to be successful in the sox system. we rely on our scouting, drafting, plug ins, and the occasional big ticket item, and there is absolutely no margin for error. the years we made the playoffs everything seemed to go our way. no major injuries, guys having career years. we won't cover our mistakes by throwing money at it. now i think it's most important to spend money wisely and not just throw 100+million at the wall and hope something sticks, but the sox, iIF THEY WANTED could do any of the following.

 

trade for a-rod. if we took on his contract the rangers would require probably a couple of prospects, hell they might even take pk off our hands for relieving them of the enormous burden of a-rod's contract.

 

sign bartolo

 

sign vlad

 

the possibilities are endless. i doubt this management would ever do these things but i believe that if they wanted to they could. the financial constraints are self imposed, and i'm sure that bud selig appreciates us not being another NY. but i may be wrong about it all.

You are right on. This organization is joke but that is Chicago, city of spendthrift owners, JR, Wirtz, Trib and worst of all the McCaskey's. Each teams makes one move every 5 years and they shove it down the fans throat that they are poor. There will be 5,000 watching the Hawks in January and less than this watching the Sox next September. Why these leagues allow the fools from this city to do this is beyond me. You would think the cub television ratings would prove something. The general economy and morale of a city pick up do to sports but all involved are blind to this and keep the change they make on their teams instead of trying to be something great. Colon, Tejada and Castillo could all be had along with signing Gordon and Foulke. We won't move on one of these though and then wonder why we are irrelevant in the city and world of sports.

[marsh]

Im a huge BlackHawk fan, so trust me I know. Its not a White Sox thing, its a Chicago thing. What team spends money in this city? I'll never understand it, but ive gotten used to it.

i hear ya, i used to be a pretty big blackhawks fan. around the days of roenick, belfour, chelios, and goulet. then slowly i just stopped watching when they decided to field a minor league hockey team. i could probably name three blackhawk players right now and that is probably three more than most chicagoans. if i see a blackhawks game when flipping channels i usually watch for a couple minutes but that's about all.