Greg Hibbard Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Question for some folks here who are really hard on Yoan Moncada… How did you feel about Gordon Beckham after the 2013 season? Did you feel he was washed up? A loser? “Soft”? Didn’t belong here? Were you as hard on Beckham as you are on Moncada? it’s interesting to look at both together at this point in their respective careers. Both were very highly touted top prospects and both had lofty expectations. Both missed some games with injuries. Both had inconsistent offensive lines through their first few years. But as I recall, at the same point in Gordo’s career, a ton of folks were still drinking the koolaid on Beckham - and as I recall here people were clamoring for his return after he went to the Angels the next year and then many were excited he re-signed with us. I get that Gordo seems at first glance to have had a decent 2013 and be on the upswing while Moncada had a bad 2022 offensively, but then again: Beckham 2013: 0.7 WAR Moncada 2022: 0.9 WAR The to-that-point-in-their-career tale of the tape on both: Beckham 2009-2013: 638 G, .660ish OPS, 5.7 WAR total. Moncada 2016-2022: 643 G, .759 OPS, 13.1 WAR total. I also ask this question because our head play by play cheerleader at that time was Mr. Beckham’s biggest fan, eternally…. whereas it seems as though these days Moncada can’t necessarily buy a friend in the broadcast booth. $ per WAR is also interesting to look at, not that far apart to this point in their career: Yoan $23 million for 13.8 WAR with the White Sox (he has -0.4 WAR with the Red Sox) = 1.70million per WAR Gordo $9 million for 5.7 WAR = 1.58 million per WAR it really does seem like this is the year that will likely define Moncada’s contract being good or bad. I’m still a fan of his freakish talent but wonder if he can put it all together for whatever reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Just to get the record straight since people love to glom onto me calling Moncada “soft” the other day. I am a Moncada supporter. Probably one of the bigger ones around here. You’ll rarely see me badmouth his actual play on the field. He absolutely should play damn near everyday and still has a good bit of upside. His defense gives him a nice floor. He is without a doubt the best option at 3B for the next two seasons while his contract is guaranteed and at the moment there isn’t anyone particularly close. Certainly the folks that think Burger should play over him are nuts. None of that excludes Moncada from being soft. I mean, we’ve been watching the guy for 6 seasons now. He acts like he sustains a serious injury every couple weeks. That’s just who he is. I call it soft, others may term it something else. None of it is a reflection of his talent. Here is to Yoan staying healthy and living up to his potential in 2023; I know it’s in there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted March 22, 2023 Author Share Posted March 22, 2023 1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said: Just to get the record straight since people love to glom onto me calling Moncada “soft” the other day. I am a Moncada supporter. Probably one of the bigger ones around here. You’ll rarely see me badmouth his actual play on the field. He absolutely should play damn near everyday and still has a good bit of upside. His defense gives him a nice floor. He is without a doubt the best option at 3B for the next two seasons while his contract is guaranteed and at the moment there isn’t anyone particularly close. Certainly the folks that think Burger should play over him are nuts. None of that excludes Moncada from being soft. I mean, we’ve been watching the guy for 6 seasons now. He acts like he sustains a serious injury every couple weeks. That’s just who he is. I call it soft, others may term it something else. None of it is a reflection of his talent. Here is to Yoan staying healthy and living up to his potential in 2023; I know it’s in there. Ok so by my count Yoan has played in 581 of 708 games (82%) since the beginning of the 2018 season, is there any other White Sox starter besides Abreu who has appeared in that many games over that span? Not Tim, not Luis, not Eloy, not even Leury. So it’s not his actual health, right? I mean Mike Trout has only played in 68.6% of team games over the last six seasons since his age 24 season for comparison… Or are you taking some kind of issue with just the way he conducts himself on the field after an incident as performative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Man I do not recall Gordon supporters as late as 2013. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxBlanco Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said: Ok so by my count Yoan has played in 581 of 708 games (82%) since the beginning of the 2018 season, is there any other White Sox starter besides Abreu who has appeared in that many games over that span? Not Tim, not Luis, not Eloy, not even Leury. So it’s not his actual health, right? I mean Mike Trout has only played in 68.6% of team games over the last six seasons since his age 24 season for comparison… Or are you taking some kind of issue with just the way he conducts himself on the field after an incident as performative? I think he’s talking about the way he acts after a minor injury. Perhaps “dramatic” is a better word than soft. Sometimes he looks like he got shot in the leg, and it turns out to be more minor than the bruise I got on my thigh when I walked into the corner of my coffee table. Edited March 22, 2023 by SoxBlanco 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 22 minutes ago, bmags said: Man I do not recall Gordon supporters as late as 2013. The bloom fell off that rose rather quickly....I think he was making a lot less money then Moncada as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 I guess I don't remember those Gordon defenders. Not then 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossanoveralls Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Ozzie's comments about Gordo were kind of funny at first. It seemed to me that he was not a Gordo fan from the get-go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Soxtalk circa Gordon upon call-up in 2009: Hall of famer Soxtalk circa Gordon 2010: He just got jerked around! You can't expect someone who played shortstop to handle...second base or something! Soxtalk circa Gordon 2011: Gordon can't handle the majors mentally Soxtalk circa Gordon 2012: DFA Gordon Soxtalk circa Gordon 2013: DFA Gordon Soxtalk circa Gordon 2014: I am so glad we traded Gordon Soxtalk circa Gordon 2015: You know...Gordon might be the best player on this miserable, miserable team. He plays a pretty nice 3rd base! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 8 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said: Ok so by my count Yoan has played in 581 of 708 games (82%) since the beginning of the 2018 season, is there any other White Sox starter besides Abreu who has appeared in that many games over that span? Not Tim, not Luis, not Eloy, not even Leury. So it’s not his actual health, right? I mean Mike Trout has only played in 68.6% of team games over the last six seasons since his age 24 season for comparison… Or are you taking some kind of issue with just the way he conducts himself on the field after an incident as performative? Lol this isn’t complicated. Perhaps you should watch closer. The WBC incident is the latest in a long list of examples. He’s almost always fine; almost always looks/acts like it’ll be a season altering injury. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted March 22, 2023 Author Share Posted March 22, 2023 48 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Lol this isn’t complicated. Perhaps you should watch closer. The WBC incident is the latest in a long list of examples. He’s almost always fine; almost always looks/acts like it’ll be a season altering injury. So you take exception to the way he acts / reacts on the field, got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 11 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said: Question for some folks here who are really hard on Yoan Moncada… How did you feel about Gordon Beckham after the 2013 season? Did you feel he was washed up? A loser? “Soft”? Didn’t belong here? Were you as hard on Beckham as you are on Moncada? it’s interesting to look at both together at this point in their respective careers. Both were very highly touted top prospects and both had lofty expectations. Both missed some games with injuries. Both had inconsistent offensive lines through their first few years. But as I recall, at the same point in Gordo’s career, a ton of folks were still drinking the koolaid on Beckham - and as I recall here people were clamoring for his return after he went to the Angels the next year and then many were excited he re-signed with us. I get that Gordo seems at first glance to have had a decent 2013 and be on the upswing while Moncada had a bad 2022 offensively, but then again: Beckham 2013: 0.7 WAR Moncada 2022: 0.9 WAR The to-that-point-in-their-career tale of the tape on both: Beckham 2009-2013: 638 G, .660ish OPS, 5.7 WAR total. Moncada 2016-2022: 643 G, .759 OPS, 13.1 WAR total. I also ask this question because our head play by play cheerleader at that time was Mr. Beckham’s biggest fan, eternally…. whereas it seems as though these days Moncada can’t necessarily buy a friend in the broadcast booth. $ per WAR is also interesting to look at, not that far apart to this point in their career: Yoan $23 million for 13.8 WAR with the White Sox (he has -0.4 WAR with the Red Sox) = 1.70million per WAR Gordo $9 million for 5.7 WAR = 1.58 million per WAR it really does seem like this is the year that will likely define Moncada’s contract being good or bad. I’m still a fan of his freakish talent but wonder if he can put it all together for whatever reason. Beckham never has a single season outside his rookie year that compared to Moncada’s 2019, if memory serves. He cratered pretty hard and was just a mess, where as Moncada has still had good stretches. I really don’t think there is a comparison between the two. As for why Beckham still has supporters even today and people seemed to have mostly turned on Moncada, it’s anyone’s guess. The music video, the rumors of excessive partying, etc make him a target for ire from certain corners of the fandom. None of that s%*# matters to me, but it obviously impacts others view of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 10 hours ago, ChiSox59 said: Just to get the record straight since people love to glom onto me calling Moncada “soft” the other day. I am a Moncada supporter. Probably one of the bigger ones around here. You’ll rarely see me badmouth his actual play on the field. He absolutely should play damn near everyday and still has a good bit of upside. His defense gives him a nice floor. He is without a doubt the best option at 3B for the next two seasons while his contract is guaranteed and at the moment there isn’t anyone particularly close. Certainly the folks that think Burger should play over him are nuts. None of that excludes Moncada from being soft. I mean, we’ve been watching the guy for 6 seasons now. He acts like he sustains a serious injury every couple weeks. That’s just who he is. I call it soft, others may term it something else. None of it is a reflection of his talent. Here is to Yoan staying healthy and living up to his potential in 2023; I know it’s in there. Soft implies weakness, or a lack of toughness. It’s such a masculine tough guy word used in this context, one that should really be excised from usage. No one really knows how hard Moncada works, or his pain tolerance. Some athletes can play through pain better than others. Baseball is a grind, and to play everyday, banged up, sore, and to do it again and again is anything but soft. Moncada is definitely dramatic when dealing with pain and injury. But that doesn’t make him “soft”. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
he gone. Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 I'm definitely tough on Yo Yo. I think it's like anything else, it's based on expectations and glimpses of talent and weighted against the poor stretches and his seemingly "I dont care attitude". End of the day, even though I'm hard on Yo Yo, it wasn't him who gave himself that contract, it was the White Sox. I'm glad he got money, good for him. I also think he's a solid player and part of a Championship type roster. He's just never going to be the "it" guy on the roster or the reason we win a WS. That's okay. It's definitely okay at $10mm a year, but definitely not okay at his current or next years cost. Ideally what I'd love to see out of him is a strong effort in the field, running out balls, and working counts again. I've long called him Joe Crede type guy and stand by that. Not on a 1:1 comparison, but in terms of a guy who has the talent in stretches, plays solid D, and can be a fringy 2-3 All-Star. He's not the problem on the team, far from it, but he's also not the guy we hoped he would be either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 10 minutes ago, he gone. said: I'm definitely tough on Yo Yo. I think it's like anything else, it's based on expectations and glimpses of talent and weighted against the poor stretches and his seemingly "I dont care attitude". End of the day, even though I'm hard on Yo Yo, it wasn't him who gave himself that contract, it was the White Sox. I'm glad he got money, good for him. I also think he's a solid player and part of a Championship type roster. He's just never going to be the "it" guy on the roster or the reason we win a WS. That's okay. It's definitely okay at $10mm a year, but definitely not okay at his current or next years cost. Ideally what I'd love to see out of him is a strong effort in the field, running out balls, and working counts again. I've long called him Joe Crede type guy and stand by that. Not on a 1:1 comparison, but in terms of a guy who has the talent in stretches, plays solid D, and can be a fringy 2-3 All-Star. He's not the problem on the team, far from it, but he's also not the guy we hoped he would be either. He’s exactly the problem at that salary and 625ish OPS and lack of payroll flexibility attached to him. He, Grandal, Jimenez, Robert, Benintendi and TA7 have to produce with how much they’re making. There’s no way around that harsh reality. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said: Lol this isn’t complicated. Perhaps you should watch closer. The WBC incident is the latest in a long list of examples. He’s almost always fine; almost always looks/acts like it’ll be a season altering injury. It was suggested a lat injury last year affected his hitting, but he was playing much of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoeLessRob Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 They’re both are/were a failure in their own way. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grinder Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Im holding out a glitter of hope for Yoan but the OP point is well taken. Like comparing the sinking of the Titanic or the Lusitania, which one was worse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 15 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said: Ok so by my count Yoan has played in 581 of 708 games (82%) since the beginning of the 2018 season, is there any other White Sox starter besides Abreu who has appeared in that many games over that span? Not Tim, not Luis, not Eloy, not even Leury. So it’s not his actual health, right? I mean Mike Trout has only played in 68.6% of team games over the last six seasons since his age 24 season for comparison… Or are you taking some kind of issue with just the way he conducts himself on the field after an incident as performative? Moncada playing in 581 games of 708 possible games since the 2018 season isn't that great to be honest. Whether you want to call Yoan soft or injury prone, his ability to play daily games often since 2018 is a far cry from some of the more durable MLB players since 2018. The league leaders who have played in over 90% of their possible games since 2018: Player Games % of total games Freddie Freeman 698 .985 Marcus Semien 697 .984 Paul Goldschmidt 686 .968 Whit Merrifield 667 .942 Tre Turner 651 .919 Francisco Lindor 647 .913 Dansby Swanson 641 .905 Comparing Yoan to Eloy, Anderson, Robert or Grandal and making him seem like a warrior is irrelevant and ridiculous. We already know the White Sox players are probably the most injured team in baseball. Hence why the front office keeps replacing the training staff members. We should not be concerned about comparing Moncada to other often injured Sox players and giving him some "A" grade for playing 82% of his possible games....as compared to his teammates who are always constantly injured as well. I think Moncada and all Sox players should be compared to the ML players high standards of durability that play over 90% as mentioned above. Btw, if WE were to use 2019-2022 or 2020-2022 the above over 90 percent list is even larger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuban_sammiches Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 8 hours ago, bmags said: Soxtalk circa Gordon upon call-up in 2009: Hall of famer Soxtalk circa Gordon 2010: He just got jerked around! You can't expect someone who played shortstop to handle...second base or something! Soxtalk circa Gordon 2011: Gordon can't handle the majors mentally Soxtalk circa Gordon 2012: DFA Gordon Soxtalk circa Gordon 2013: DFA Gordon Soxtalk circa Gordon 2014: I am so glad we traded Gordon Soxtalk circa Gordon 2015: You know...Gordon might be the best player on this miserable, miserable team. He plays a pretty nice 3rd base! 2021: Let's get this goober in the booth! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulfly Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 On 3/22/2023 at 8:22 AM, bmags said: Soxtalk circa Gordon upon call-up in 2009: Hall of famer Soxtalk circa Gordon 2010: He just got jerked around! You can't expect someone who played shortstop to handle...second base or something! Soxtalk circa Gordon 2011: Gordon can't handle the majors mentally Soxtalk circa Gordon 2012: DFA Gordon Soxtalk circa Gordon 2013: DFA Gordon Soxtalk circa Gordon 2014: I am so glad we traded Gordon Soxtalk circa Gordon 2015: You know...Gordon might be the best player on this miserable, miserable team. He plays a pretty nice 3rd base! What year did Harold Reynolds say he was going to be a Hall of Famer, or some such outlandish statement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiddleCoastBias Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 1 minute ago, soulfly said: What year did Harold Reynolds say he was going to be a Hall of Famer, or some such outlandish statement? That was on draft night during MLBN's live draft show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, MiddleCoastBias said: That was on draft night during MLBN's live draft show. I remember something different maybe. I think there was a projected "best players of the 2010s" after Gordon's first season where he came up in July and was absolutely on fire. every at bat was a double. He tailed off at the end, and it turned out, permanently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted March 23, 2023 Author Share Posted March 23, 2023 21 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said: Moncada playing in 581 games of 708 possible games since the 2018 season isn't that great to be honest. Whether you want to call Yoan soft or injury prone, his ability to play daily games often since 2018 is a far cry from some of the more durable MLB players since 2018. The league leaders who have played in over 90% of their possible games since 2018: Player Games % of total games Freddie Freeman 698 .985 Marcus Semien 697 .984 Paul Goldschmidt 686 .968 Whit Merrifield 667 .942 Tre Turner 651 .919 Francisco Lindor 647 .913 Dansby Swanson 641 .905 Comparing Yoan to Eloy, Anderson, Robert or Grandal and making him seem like a warrior is irrelevant and ridiculous. We already know the White Sox players are probably the most injured team in baseball. Hence why the front office keeps replacing the training staff members. We should not be concerned about comparing Moncada to other often injured Sox players and giving him some "A" grade for playing 82% of his possible games....as compared to his teammates who are always constantly injured as well. I think Moncada and all Sox players should be compared to the ML players high standards of durability that play over 90% as mentioned above. Btw, if WE were to use 2019-2022 or 2020-2022 the above over 90 percent list is even larger. Ok, I’ll bite. How many total players have played in 82% of their games or more since 2018? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Saying he played a certain number of games means nothing to me if a portion of those games, he’s clearly not even 75%. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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