Rebuild Time

[YonderLaroche]

Just start over this is 2007, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019all over again.  I see a pattern, loved this franchise in 90s thru mid 2000s.  Since 2007 its been a struggle and reminded of those awful cubs teams from 90s thru mid 2000s

Edited April 20, 2023 by bryank1202

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, bryank1202 said:

Just start over this is 2007, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019all over again.  I see a pattern, loved this franchise in 90s thru mid 2000s.  Since 2007 its been a struggle and reminded of those awful cubs teams from 90s thru mid 2000s

They were fine through the end of 2012...

 

 

At any rate:

 

HAVE TO GO THIS YEAR:   Bummer, Graveman, Lynn, Giolito, Clevinger (if right offer, unfortunately, his option is much better than Lynn's for next year and they have to provide a starting rotation in 2024, plus all the attached "baggage"), Kelly, Grandal, Reynaldo should be either extended or traded/then attempt to resign as FA to replace Liam eventually depending on cost

Up for debate:   Benintendi (zero benefit to have on roster except "veteran leadership/experience" during rebuild but they likely won't dump his deal yet), Jimenez (likely traded at 60-75 cents on the dollar after extended hot/healthy streak), Moncada (sunk cost), Kopech, Cease (both those guys won't sign team-friendly extensions going into another rebuild), TA7 (three potential windows to trade him, beginning with June/July 2023)

Keep:  Robert (maybe/probably, unless you can get enough value back in return), Burger, Sheets, Vaughn (probably), Colas, Montgomery, Hendriks (unless he can get back to full health/performance before the trade deadline this year)

[South Side Hit Men]

Jerry should demand a new stadium and real estate holdings (perhaps throw in a Star Wars museum on the Lake) from the new mayor ($4B-$5B plus) that he completely owns with zero or minimal rent or lease payments like his current deal. Get a complete real estate tax exemption as well. They can sell it to the media and masses announcing an historical agreement with Mellody Hobson to purchase the team when he passes, perhaps rebuild a bunch of park baseball diamonds around the city (with Sox Split the Pot Raffle Ticket money) to sweeten the deal. Jerry spends a few pennies on the dollar max ($150M-$200M) to get this through legislatively.

Dump every player over $3M, tank for the next five seasons and give Hahn another chance at a rebuild. Maximize profits, without significantly impacting attendance, 1.4M the likely floor, not much lower than the average under 11 years of Rick Hahn. Give Hahn a seven year contract for Kenny's job and let him promote one of his Michigan cronies.

Best part of the plan is I can see Jerry living another 25-30 plus years and attempting this scam one more time mid century. Perhaps Mama McCaskey will be gone by then.

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Jerry should demand a new stadium and real estate holdings (perhaps throw in a Star Wars museum on the Lake) from the new mayor ($4B-$5B plus) that he completely owns with zero or minimal rent or lease payments like his current deal. Get a complete real estate tax exemption as well. They can sell it to the media and masses announcing an historical agreement with Mellody Hobson to purchase the team when he passes, perhaps rebuild a bunch of park baseball diamonds around the city (with Sox Split the Pot Raffle Ticket money) to sweeten the deal. Jerry spends a few pennies on the dollar max ($150M-$200M) to get this through legislatively.

Dump every player over $3M, tank for the next five seasons and give Hahn another chance at a rebuild. Maximize profits, without significantly impacting attendance, 1.4M the likely floor, not much lower than the average under 11 years of Rick Hahn. Give Hahn a seven year contract for Kenny's job and let him promote one of his Michigan cronies.

Best part of the plan is I can see Jerry living another 25-30 plus years and attempting this scam one more time mid century. Perhaps Mama McCaskey will be gone by then.

Solid ideas in first paragraph...not sure if they will ever come to fruition but any plan is better than just allowing the organization to completely implode. 

 

[GreenSox]

No.  It will mostly be a salary dump.  And Hahn generally naps in July and it devolves into a give-away train (except for Quintana, whom he had peddled for 6 months).

[chitownsportsfan]

I'm bored with this team so here's some proposals:

Let Sosa and Colas and Burger take their lumps all year. Park Eloy in LF, if he gets hurt he gets hurt. See if he can rebuild some trade value. Same with Moncada. 

If some team wants to overpay for Robert entertain it but he's young enough to where possibly he could be part of the next good Sox team. Same with Vaughn.

Obvious trades are Giolito, Hendricks when he comes back and then Bummer in any sort of package to a contender as a sweetener at the deadline.

Open discussions with Cease. See what he wants. When he wants more than JR will pay him (hey we sat down at the table...) you'll have to trade him, but at least entertain an extension. Maybe he's loyal for some reason.

Benitendi is already dead wood. Nobody will trade a bucket of seeds for him even. He will be a guy that is on waivers in July and nobody will bite. That sucks.

Grandal has value and honestly deserves a better team. See what you can get for him ASAP as he could get hurt again any time.

[tray]

If the 2023 WSox continue to devolve and they settle in under .500.... perhaps 10+ games back after 30-40 games, perhaps JR will consider giving Ozzie another chance to turn things around with this roster. The return of Ozzie was viewed as heresy by some before the season. However, Grifol does not appear to have built personal relationships with players or at least lacks the ability to motivate some of them.  My factually unsupported, purely speculative guess is that some players just don't like the guy. Whatever we think of Grifo, a move will be made if things continue spiraling downward.

Edited April 20, 2023 by tray

[TheBooneLoganEra]

No. They had fantastic talent with wonderful contracts to turnover with Sale, Quintana, even Eaton. They have nothing to offer now. The same incompetent clowns who tried it last time will not do better with less resources. There are no good options. 

[Chimpton]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Jerry should demand a new stadium and real estate holdings (perhaps throw in a Star Wars museum on the Lake) from the new mayor ($4B-$5B plus) that he completely owns with zero or minimal rent or lease payments like his current deal. Get a complete real estate tax exemption as well. They can sell it to the media and masses announcing an historical agreement with Mellody Hobson to purchase the team when he passes, perhaps rebuild a bunch of park baseball diamonds around the city (with Sox Split the Pot Raffle Ticket money) to sweeten the deal. Jerry spends a few pennies on the dollar max ($150M-$200M) to get this through legislatively.

Dump every player over $3M, tank for the next five seasons and give Hahn another chance at a rebuild. Maximize profits, without significantly impacting attendance, 1.4M the likely floor, not much lower than the average under 11 years of Rick Hahn. Give Hahn a seven year contract for Kenny's job and let him promote one of his Michigan cronies.

Best part of the plan is I can see Jerry living another 25-30 plus years and attempting this scam one more time mid century. Perhaps Mama McCaskey will be gone by then.

Why give Hahn another chance? He has had enough chances and produced this steaming turd.

[soulfly]

Don't even think about rebuilding until they fire Hahns dumpy ass into the sun.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

I can’t support a rebuild with the same group of assholes running the show. Hahn should have been fired years ago. Only thing you can do right now is hope for some miraculous lightning in a bottle season followed by the death of Jerry so we can escape this hell.

[Balta1701]

8 hours ago, Chimpton said:

Why give Hahn another chance? He has had enough chances and produced this steaming turd.

Next offseason, the White Sox will have to replace 3 starting pitchers, 2 relievers (one good), their starting catcher, and their bench, just to tread water. Thanks to backloading deals they might have only $20 or $30 million to spend on those spots.

Do you trust Rick Hahn to have any success at solving that riddle?

[Kyyle23]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Next offseason, the White Sox will have to replace 3 starting pitchers, 2 relievers (one good), their starting catcher, and their bench, just to tread water. Thanks to backloading deals they might have only $20 or $30 million to spend on those spots.

Do you trust Rick Hahn to have any success at solving that riddle?

How many backloaded deals leak into that season if all of that is off the books?

[ChiSox59]

15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Next offseason, the White Sox will have to replace 3 starting pitchers, 2 relievers (one good), their starting catcher, and their bench, just to tread water. Thanks to backloading deals they might have only $20 or $30 million to spend on those spots.

Do you trust Rick Hahn to have any success at solving that riddle?

Alternatively, they may only have to replace 1 SP.  Lynn is a team option.  Clevinger is mutual option.  He'd have to be pretty good to reject his side of it, but Sox probably just cut bait regardless.   If you assume Lynn and Clevinger are both gone, they have about $145M committed to 2024 payroll.  So more like $50M to spend.  That also assumes Sox don't move anyone controlled past 2023, which seems unlikely if the current trend continues. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by ChiSox59

[Rusty_Kuntz]

Untradeable: Moncada, Benintendi, Hendriks, probably Clevinger

Easy calls to trade this July:  Lynn, Grandal, Graveman, Kelly

Guys they need to get something for before they go: Giolito, Anderson

Guys who are redundant on a decent team: Sheets, one of Burger/Vaughn/Eloy. My sense would be trade Eloy. 

Guys who could be traded: Cease, Kopech, Bummer

Guys to keep: Robert, Crochet, probably Kopech and or Cease, Colas, and all the other youngsters.

Acquire all prospects, tank this year and 2024. 

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Alternatively, they may only have to replace 1 SP.  Lynn is a team option.  Clevinger is mutual option.  He'd have to be pretty good to reject his side of it, but Sox probably just cut bait regardless.   If you assume Lynn and Clevinger are both gone, they have about $145M committed to 2024 payroll.  So more like $50M to spend.  

If the Sox suck this year and JR doesn't make money, he will not have a 195 million payroll next year.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

Alternatively, they may only have to replace 1 SP.  Lynn is a team option.  Clevinger is mutual option.  He'd have to be pretty good to reject his side of it, but Sox probably just cut bait regardless.   If you assume Lynn and Clevinger are both gone, they have about $145M committed to 2024 payroll.  So more like $50M to spend.  

Lynn is a $18 million team option. So you have $30 million to spend, and you spent $18 million on Lynn alone. You have $2 million to spend on every other player you sign.

Rick Hahn is always excellent at this type of work.

[ChiSox59]

11 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

How many backloaded deals leak into that season if all of that is off the books?

REally just Moncada.  Unless you want to call Robert's $12.5M and Eloy's $13M backloaded. Considering those are pretty modest increases over their 2023 salaries, I wouldn't call them that.  

[Balta1701]

12 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

How many backloaded deals leak into that season if all of that is off the books?

The big ones are the young guys, Benintendi (they are paying him $8 million this year so they already backloaded 1/2 of his 2023 contract) and Clevinger, where they used a mutual option to delay $4 million.

[ChiSox59]

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Lynn is a $18 million team option. So you have $30 million to spend, and you spent $18 million on Lynn alone. You have $2 million to spend on every other player you sign.

Rick Hahn is always excellent at this type of work.

Huh? If you assume the Sox payroll is in the $190M-$200M range its been in the last two season, and they have $145M committed to 2024 not including Lynn, how do you figure $30M?  That would assume $15-20M cuts.  Its more like $50M to spend without Lynn, or $30M with Lynn. This scenerio obviously assumes the Sox are attempting to compete in 2024.  Alternatively...

13 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If the Sox suck this year and JR doesn't make money, he will not have a 195 million payroll next year.

If the Sox suck this year, a good chunk of these players won't be here in 2024 making this entire exercise moot.

Edited April 20, 2023 by ChiSox59

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

The big ones are the young guys, Benintendi (they are paying him $8 million this year so they already backloaded 1/2 of his 2023 contract) and Clevinger, where they used a mutual option to delay $4 million.

They're actually paying Beni $11M this year, and Clevinger's $4M will be paid in October 2023.

[GREEDY]

IF we rebuild, all I ask is Jerry eats bad contracts paired with prospects.  

Otherwise the only juice is whatever you can squeeze from a Cease deal.  Other than that, it isn't a rebuild, it is just waiting.  

[ChiSox59]

There is obviously nothing you can do right now.  Need to see how things playout at least over the next 70-80 days.  

If Sox are buried come late June, you certainly try to move all of Lynn, Giolito, Clevinger, Kelly, Graveman, Lopez and Diekman (if he's still here).  You can theoretically trade this group and keep your offensive core intact for 2024, albeit, 19 games into 2023 doesn't seem like a core you want to keep intact.  

Definitely listen on Moncada to the extent there is interest.  If Eloy has a big couple months between now and then, you listen on him as well.  His 2025 option if feeling like a long shot to pick up at this point, but is still a nice option to have.  If you end up ripping it all down, you pretty much have to listen on Cease as he's the guy that can bring you legitimate talent back.  I'd hang onto Robert myself, but you gotta listen.  

That all being said, this conversation is pretty premature.  Trades of substance don't really occur until late June (very occasionally), and really more like mid-July.  A lot can change between now and then. 

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

They're actually paying Beni $11M this year, and Clevinger's $4M will be paid in October 2023.

There was zero reason to structure “youre not a music producer!”’s deal with a mutual option unless they counted that money as deferred onto their next years budget.

Benintendi’s salary is $16.5 million in 2024 because they backloaded it. They couldn’t afford to pay $12 million to Clevinger, $15 million to Benintendi in 2023.

While they can always backload things onto 2025 again, they will be dumpster diving for any positions they try to fill if they continue to think they are competing. It will be more of it than in 2023.

[Tnetennba]

10 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Jerry should demand a new stadium and real estate holdings (perhaps throw in a Star Wars museum on the Lake) from the new mayor ($4B-$5B plus) that he completely owns with zero or minimal rent or lease payments like his current deal. Get a complete real estate tax exemption as well. They can sell it to the media and masses announcing an historical agreement with Mellody Hobson to purchase the team when he passes, perhaps rebuild a bunch of park baseball diamonds around the city (with Sox Split the Pot Raffle Ticket money) to sweeten the deal. Jerry spends a few pennies on the dollar max ($150M-$200M) to get this through legislatively.

Dump every player over $3M, tank for the next five seasons and give Hahn another chance at a rebuild. Maximize profits, without significantly impacting attendance, 1.4M the likely floor, not much lower than the average under 11 years of Rick Hahn. Give Hahn a seven year contract for Kenny's job and let him promote one of his Michigan cronies.

Best part of the plan is I can see Jerry living another 25-30 plus years and attempting this scam one more time mid century. Perhaps Mama McCaskey will be gone by then.

A lakefront baseball stadium?  And people think attendance is bad now…