Rebuild Time

[Eminor3rd]

No more rebuilds with current leadership. They need to push chips in however long it takes to convince reinsdorf that it’s time to move on. The only question is how deep the hole will be before the plug is finally pulled.

Because of how insanely long the leash that they’ve had, we know exactly what this group can and can’t do. They can negotiate contracts and negotiate trades effectively. They cannot build/manage a competitive player development system, and that they cannot manage a payroll or build a roster effectively. There is less doubt about this than than in any typical administrative evaluation, because a typical administrative group in this situation would have been fired long ago. In a relative sense, we have a LOT of data. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Eminor3rd

[black jack]

Forget losing on purpose again.

Our almost 100 + loss seasons gained us Madrigal and Vaughn for heaven's sake. 

That turned in half a season of a setup man. 

[LittleHurtCG]

1 hour ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

Don’t worry people will forget.

 

I was never on board with this back in 2017 when they let the people who sank the Titanic captain the rescue boats.  I was ripped, everyone on WSI thought Hahn was the Sox Theo.  Ignore minor league injury history I was told.  Ignore the absolute historical incompetence of this organization I was told.  Hahnsight is 2020 one doofus had as his banner.

Everyone will be on board with the next rebuild.  Once the talking points go out (LaRussa’s fault, bad luck with injuries) all will be forgotten.

I was 100% against the tank job back in the winter of 16/17 as well.  The rebuild was never setup to be successfull. Wunderkind Hahn thought he could just copy what the Cubs and Astros had done and everything would turn out golden.  The warning signs were there from day 1 that this rebuild was built on a house of cards, but many chose to straight up ignore them and bury their heads in the sand instead. 

It will be interesting to see how the Sox procceed moving forward if this season continues to circle the drain.  JR is likely salivating at the thought of nuking the payroll back down to 2017 levels, but I'm not so sure that White Sox nation will embace another tank job. 

 

[soxrwhite]

c'mon lets not be a bunch of quitters. Circle the wagons and fight.

[chitownsportsfan]

44 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

No more rebuilds with current leadership. They need to push chips in however long it takes to convince reinsdorf that it’s time to move on. The only question is how deep the hole will be before the plug is finally pulled.

Because of how insanely long the leash that they’ve had, we know exactly what this group can and can’t do. They can negotiate contracts and negotiate trades effectively. They cannot build/manage a competitive player development system, and that they cannot manage a payroll or build a roster effectively. There is less doubt about this than than in any typical administrative evaluation, because a typical administrative group in this situation would have been fired long ago. In a relative sense, we have a LOT of data. 

Imagine we we had brought in Dombrowski in 2019 and he was given the purse to do what he wanted. Man that's an interesting dream to see what he could have done with the assets (and their assumed value) at that time. Instead you got Hahn bringing in useless coaches, useless MLB scouting, and making piss poor veteran signings and trades.

[greg775]

7 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

A lakefront baseball stadium?  And people think attendance is bad now…

The smart thing to do would be to team up with the Bears, leave the city and build a Dallas Cowboys like palace at Arlington.

Caulfield had a nice post as far as rebuilding. This team is so unlikeable I'd be all for trading everybody except Robert and Anderson and try to sign GOOD young players and be like the no-name Rays.

[Lip Man 1]

37 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

I was 100% against the tank job back in the winter of 16/17 as well.  The rebuild was never setup to be successfull. Wunderkind Hahn thought he could just copy what the Cubs and Astros had done and everything would turn out golden.  The warning signs were there from day 1 that this rebuild was built on a house of cards, but many chose to straight up ignore them and bury their heads in the sand instead. 

It will be interesting to see how the Sox procceed moving forward if this season continues to circle the drain.  JR is likely salivating at the thought of nuking the payroll back down to 2017 levels, but I'm not so sure that White Sox nation will embace another tank job. 

 

They won't as long as the front office on the baseball side isn't cleaned out. 

Sox are really in a very, very difficult situation. 

[Iwritecode]

4 hours ago, White Sox Park said:

On the south side, at any rate, it appears that there will be years of bad baseball ahead ..

So basically, the same thing as the last 100 years or so? Give or take a year or two here and there.

[almagest]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

I agree there are a lot of troubling signs.  Sox have looked nothing short of awful.  

I watch a lot of Twins baseball though, and I'd be pretty surprised if that team plays 5 games over .500 in their next 35.  Their offense is bad and their pitching has grossly overachieved so far, and they're still just 11-8 after today.    

That team looks terrible. They have two good starters, a good closer, and a bunch of injuries and question marks on offense.

I can see Cleveland winning the division with ~90 wins again, and I can also see a 2-way race between Cleveland and Minnesota at ~.500. Maybe 3 way if the Sox overachieve.

[baseball_gal_aly]

Tearing it down in 2016 was the correct course of action then as it is today. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by baseballgalaly

[hi8is]

Talk to me around May 25th.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

18 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Let Sosa and Colas and Burger take their lumps all year. Park Eloy in LF, if he gets hurt he gets hurt. See if he can rebuild some trade value. Same with Moncada. 

 

I feel the same way.  When Moncada can play put Burger as primary DH, let him play 1B every now and then and if needed a spot start at 3B.  Let Eloy play LF with Benitendi as his late inning defensive caddy.  If he can stay healthy fine.  If he gets hurt again, who cares anymore.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

1 hour ago, LittleHurtCG said:

I was 100% against the tank job back in the winter of 16/17 as well.  The rebuild was never setup to be successfull. Wunderkind Hahn thought he could just copy what the Cubs and Astros had done and everything would turn out golden.  The warning signs were there from day 1 that this rebuild was built on a house of cards, but many chose to straight up ignore them and bury their heads in the sand instead. 

It will be interesting to see how the Sox procceed moving forward if this season continues to circle the drain.  JR is likely salivating at the thought of nuking the payroll back down to 2017 levels, but I'm not so sure that White Sox nation will embace another tank job. 

 

Just wait for the Sox to "flip that switch!" 

[mmmmmbeeer]

This entire conversation is stupid.  

Let's be real.  The only ways to truly rebuild this organization into one fit to compete are for Jerry Reinsdorf to either sell or die.  That's it.  Those are our options.  

If you read Lip's article from last season concerning the organizational dysfunction, much of which has been confirmed via other reporting, this franchise is 100% fucked.  If, by some miracle, we managed to trade away what we have for 10 top 100 prospects, we'll still be losing 5 years from now because the incompetence and dysfunction within the halls of the franchise will remain.

Just resign yourselves to the fact we root for one of the worst run organizations in baseball.  It's not changing.  There's no "lightning in a bottle" which will miraculously carry us to become competitive. 

We aren't baseball fans.  We're nothing more than a bunch of die hard masochists.

Edited April 20, 2023 by mmmmmbeeer

[chitownsportsfan]

3 minutes ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

I feel the same way.  When Moncada can play put Burger as primary DH, let him play 1B every now and then and if needed a spot start at 3B.  Let Eloy play LF with Benitendi as his late inning defensive caddy.  If he can stay healthy fine.  If he gets hurt again, who cares anymore.

Sadly I'm at the exact same spot. He's not the 150 wRC+ hitter we all thought he'd be. He's like a 120 guy at best. That's not even worth that much as a glorified DH. If via some miracle of the heavens he manages to stay healthy and hit while out in LF trade him before he reverts back to a pumpkin.

[Tnetennba]

41 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said:

Tearing it down in 2016 was the correct course of action then as it is today. 

Rebuilding in 2016 was the right move, but letting the same FO do it then was as big of a mistake as it would be allowing them to do it again now. 

[baseball_gal_aly]

12 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Rebuilding in 2016 was the right move, but letting the same FO do it then was as big of a mistake as it would be allowing them to do it again now. 

No arguments. 

[Tnetennba]

Riding this mess out vs letting Rick Hahn rebuild again, be it retool/reset, bare bones tear down, however that might manifest, which one actually  leads to competing for multiple championships first? 

[Sambuca]

This current state of ownership/front office attempting to execute a rebuild is the stuff nightmares are made of.

I don’t even want to think about this any longer. Thinking about this current team is basically “happy thoughts” in comparison.  

["The Kids Can Play"]

56 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said:

Tearing it down in 2016 was the correct course of action then as it is today. 

I agree it was the right call in 2016. Unfortunately as we now realize it was the wrong guy handling it.

It's also perhaps time to do another rebuild. However if it's under the direction of the two clowns Kenny and Hahn, then aa rebuild should not be done.

When a GM and his FO destroy a rebuild and make it a trainwreck, where seven years later we are still a horrible team on every level of the organization, you shouldn't be getting a second shot. Well at least they don't in any good organization, except of course for the Sox owned by the biggest loser in the league.

If Jerry allows another rebuild with these two morons, then as Forrest Gump's mom said, "Stupid is a Stupid Does"

[Saufley]

49 minutes ago, "The Kids Can Play" said:

I agree it was the right call in 2016. Unfortunately as we now realize it was the wrong guy handling it.

It's also perhaps time to do another rebuild. However if it's under the direction of the two clowns Kenny and Hahn, then aa rebuild should not be done.

When a GM and his FO destroy a rebuild and make it a trainwreck, where seven years later we are still a horrible team on every level of the organization, you shouldn't be getting a second shot. Well at least they don't in any good organization, except of course for the Sox owned by the biggest loser in the league.

If Jerry allows another rebuild with these two morons, then as Forrest Gump's mom said, "Stupid is a Stupid Does"

I was around to watch the 1959 World Series and I have seen a lot through the years. Sometimes you get to a point where you just don't care anymore! It appears they don't so why should I? If I'm wrong prove it!

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

No more rebuilds with current leadership. They need to push chips in however long it takes to convince reinsdorf that it’s time to move on. The only question is how deep the hole will be before the plug is finally pulled.

Because of how insanely long the leash that they’ve had, we know exactly what this group can and can’t do. They can negotiate contracts and negotiate trades effectively. They cannot build/manage a competitive player development system, and that they cannot manage a payroll or build a roster effectively. There is less doubt about this than than in any typical administrative evaluation, because a typical administrative group in this situation would have been fired long ago. In a relative sense, we have a LOT of data. 

Except negotiating with Lucas TA7 Cease Kopech isn't nearly as easy as those original team friendly overtures. 

And Vaughn over half the fan base would be against a long term deal. 

 

Just like other division teams couldn't get Berrios and Guardians now with Bieber.  Worked out better for Minny... arguably. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by caulfield12

[Bananarchy]

I was all for the last rebuild but I agree there's no point now since the management is still the same.

[caulfield12]

44 minutes ago, Vacheron said:

I was all for the last rebuild but I agree there's no point now since the management is still the same.

Going to have to be like the Cubs throwing "undervalued/buy low" veterans like Wisdom Bellinger (potentially undervalued long term but not cheap), Mancini Hosmer Barnhart etc., at the problem. 

That's unfortunately much harder to do with veteran pitching due to cost the scarcity of high quality arms that go unsigned late. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by caulfield12

[baseball_gal_aly]

9 hours ago, "The Kids Can Play" said:

I agree it was the right call in 2016. Unfortunately as we now realize it was the wrong guy handling it.

It's also perhaps time to do another rebuild. However if it's under the direction of the two clowns Kenny and Hahn, then aa rebuild should not be done.

When a GM and his FO destroy a rebuild and make it a trainwreck, where seven years later we are still a horrible team on every level of the organization, you shouldn't be getting a second shot. Well at least they don't in any good organization, except of course for the Sox owned by the biggest loser in the league.

If Jerry allows another rebuild with these two morons, then as Forrest Gump's mom said, "Stupid is a Stupid Does"

I don't see any way out other than rebuilding again because Robert/Moncada only became solid players and not stars, Giolito/Lynn/Anderson peaked early and aren't the same and Cease peaked when Giolito/Lynn/Anderson already fell off.

Also Eloy was injured and has otherwise disappointed because he can't hit the ball in the air.

 

Vaughn either is still figuring it out or it might be too late for him. 

Kopech's secondary stuff might not be good enough to start. 

Robert is a solid piece and Vaughn might be, but they really don't have anyone long-term besides them and we all know Cease is getting paid by someone other than the Sox. 

There's really no reason to keep Vaughn and Robert around to build around. 

Nobody is arguing that Hahn et al should get to do it, but they’re losing way too many players to FA to realistically compete anymore. This year was pretty much their last chance and they look to be falling flat on their faces. 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by baseballgalaly