Ponson and Weaver

[CubKilla]

Deferring money does nobody any good.  The more I read on this situation, the more I think the offer was bulls***, probably $5M/yr with $7M deffered.  Why would anyone take this?  His agent isn't going to state this in the papers.  This sounds like the Buerhle deal, all bulls*** from this horses*** organization.

I hope the White Sox Organization wouldn't jack Colon and the fans around like they did with Buehrle again. But, since they did it to Buehrle, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

This Organization is horses***..... that much I know

[DonkeyKongerko]

We need a good pic of someone beating a dead horse. Not to single out this thread just alot of the offseason chatter I can tell is gonna be 5 threads about every topic.

[CubKilla]

We need a good pic of someone beating a dead horse.  Not to single out this thread just alot of the offseason chatter I can tell is gonna be 5 threads about every topic.

Add to that a pic of "This Thread Sucks!"

[forkit]

Ok, to all of you: "This organization is ... if they offered deferred money as part of a contract" big talkers...

 

You boys might want to take a quick economics class while you're still in school. Being a small business owner, I am well versed in the cost of having money in the hand versus deferrment, but apparently you all can't think a tiny bit and choose to just throw dirt because you may not get the player you want [even though it isn't your money being spent here].

 

A player that gets deferred money gets a market interest rate attached to the deferred portion. Colon doesn't need all of his $12 or $13 mill each year--what's he buying with cash? Haiti?

 

IF the 7 or 8 or $10 mill per year that is cash isn't enough he simply walks into Banc One down the street and has them give him a loan for the deferred portion. They take that portion of the contract as the guarantee. What's the big deal? In reality, it spends the same these days especially with interest rates so low.

 

The difference to the team is that they have cash flow for THIS year to spend, and the SOX need that flexibility. They CAN spend it. In fact, we HOPE they defer some of the payments to players so they can spend more now.

 

So, open your minds, guys. Just because you read from some rag it was a bad thing or because someone posted it was "bad business" doesn't make it so. Think for yourself. That's the Sox fan way...

 

Remember, players want you to believe they are the victims in negotiations...It's both sides--it isn't always the ball club. But most people just can't use the mush between their ears to read through what the media is spoon feeding them.

 

Forkit!

[Capn12]

Ok, to all of you: "This organization is ... if they offered deferred money as part of a contract" big talkers...

 

You boys might want to take a quick economics class while you're still in school. Being a small business owner, I am well versed in the cost of having money in the hand versus deferrment, but apparently you all can't think a tiny bit and choose to just throw dirt because you may not get the player you want [even though it isn't your money being spent here].

 

A player that gets deferred money gets a market interest rate attached to the deferred portion. Colon doesn't need all of his $12 or $13 mill each year--what's he buying with cash? Haiti?

 

IF the 7 or 8 or $10 mill per year that is cash isn't enough he simply walks into Banc One down the street and has them give him a loan for the deferred portion. They take that portion of the contract as the guarantee. What's the big deal? In reality, it spends the same these days especially with interest rates so low.

 

The difference to the team is that they have cash flow for THIS year to spend, and the SOX need that flexibility. They CAN spend it. In fact, we HOPE they defer some of the payments to players so they can spend more now.

 

So, open your minds, guys. Just because you read from some rag it was a bad thing or because someone posted it was "bad business" doesn't make it so. Think for yourself. That's the Sox fan way...

 

Remember, players want you to believe they are the victims in negotiations...It's both sides--it isn't always the ball club. But most people just can't use the mush between their ears to read through what the media is spoon feeding them.

 

Forkit!

No, Forkit...see...its much easier for most people just to b**** and whine about the organization not offering up King George-like money to every FA out there...then it is to actually understand that the economics behind this organization have been the same since JR owned it, and its not gonna all of a sudden change in 2003 just because.

[CubKilla]

Whether JR spends the money all in one lump-sum, 1/2 over 2 years, 1/3 over 3 years, 1/4 over 4 years, or defers it over a specific period of time, I don't need a mathematics lesson to tell me that JR is CHEAP AS HELL!!!!!

 

I think half of the posters on this board are JR under 12-15 different SN's.

 

And excuse me all if JR's way of doing things is wearing thin on me after 20 f***ING YEARS!

[SuperSteve]

I think half of the posters on this board are JR under 12-15 different SN's.

s***, ya found me out.

[YASNY]

One problem with going after Ponson:

 

If we give him more money than Buehrle or Loaiza, won't that ruffle feathers in the clubhouse. Buehrle has been a better pitcher than Ponson over the last three years. He deserves more. And Loaiza was a better pitcher in 2003. He'll believe that he deserves more.

 

I fear that a big-money offer to Ponson is a big risk.

Mark can make a lot more $$. He's got to make a decision. The ball is in his court. Loaiza is making what the option was. No room for discussion there.

I surprised that no one asked you this question, yet. But, what is this decision Mark has to make? Is there another contract offer on the table?

[forkit]

Cubkilla:

 

If you think I'm JR...you're smoking something.

 

You miss my point. Entirely.

 

Aren't you the least bit tired of players playing that same sad tune over and over:

 

"I love it here. I want to come back. I think we have a shot at it all next year. I want them to bring back this team intact. I don't want to go to New York. Just give me a fair offer and I'm here and let's go get it done."

 

How many times do you hear this? The one that broke my heart was Robin Ventura. Look, I have nothing against a player going for the money. But please! Have the GUTS to just stand up and tell it straight: I don't give a damn about this team or the fans that are pleading with me to come back. If another team offers me a dime more, I'm out of here!

 

Doesn't that piss you off?

 

Look at the Colon situation. Now people are whining because he may have passed on the offer because deferred compensation was involved. As I pointed out, to those of you that don't understand the economics, a player can simply take the guaranteed portion of the contract that is deferred to the bank and get a loan against it. It ain't no big deal. And the interest is basically cancelled out by the interest the club pays on the deferred protion to the player. It helps the team with cash flow but it doesn't hurt the player, especially when the player still gets $8 or $10 mill a year IN CASH!

 

Now let's pretend we offered him $12 mill and the Yankees end up signing him for $13.5 mill. That's roughly ten percent difference. That's not much. If that's the difference between staying here or "going where Colon doesn't want to go," then the truth of the matter is this: His only concern was going to the highest bidder.

 

I don't mind that. But have the GUTS to say it. Just say this: I want all the money I can get. I'm going to pitch for the team that pays me the most.

 

But don't throw out all that crap that MOST of the fans here fall for every time! Don't give me "I like it here. I want to come back. I want you to bring the rest of the team back so we can win it all..." If they felt that way, they'd be flexible in their contract structure [look at football players that like their teams] and ten percent in a $36 million dollar contract wouldn't be the deciding factor.

 

I didn't say a thing about JR and his operating procedures. My point is simply this: As soon as we lose a player, all evil lies with JR and the Sox. Not once do I hear: "Hey, Bart? What about wanting to come back? What about anting to win it all here? What about wanting your team mates back? What about the fans here that likee you?"

 

Face it. Most of you are angered and hurt because the owners make business decisions. But when a player makes a decision based TOTALLY on CASH in their pockets, it's the bad owners. It's never the greedy, self-serving players, is it? The players never get any disdain about the line of bull they fed all of you before they walked to the other team merely for a few dollars more...

 

Wake up! It's a business. And for almost any player you can name for me, it's more a business than it is for the owners.

 

Forkit!

[Harry Chappas]

Cubkilla:

 

If you think I'm JR...you're smoking something.

 

You miss my point. Entirely.

 

Aren't you the least bit tired of players playing that same sad tune over and over:

 

"I love it here. I want to come back. I think we have a shot at it all next year. I want them to bring back this team intact. I don't want to go to New York. Just give me a fair offer and I'm here and let's go get it done."

 

How many times do you hear this? The one that broke my heart was Robin Ventura. Look, I have nothing against a player going for the money. But please! Have the GUTS to just stand up and tell it straight: I don't give a damn about this team or the fans that are pleading with me to come back. If another team offers me a dime more, I'm out of here!

 

Doesn't that piss you off?

 

Look at the Colon situation. Now people are whining because he may have passed on the offer because deferred compensation was involved. As I pointed out, to those of you that don't understand the economics, a player can simply take the guaranteed portion of the contract that is deferred to the bank and get a loan against it. It ain't no big deal. And the interest is basically cancelled out by the interest the club pays on the deferred protion to the player. It helps the team with cash flow but it doesn't hurt the player, especially when the player still gets $8 or $10 mill a year IN CASH!

 

Now let's pretend we offered him $12 mill and the Yankees end up signing him for $13.5 mill. That's roughly ten percent difference. That's not much. If that's the difference between staying here or "going where Colon doesn't want to go," then the truth of the matter is this: His only concern was going to the highest bidder.

 

I don't mind that. But have the GUTS to say it. Just say this: I want all the money I can get. I'm going to pitch for the team that pays me the most.

 

But don't throw out all that crap that MOST of the fans here fall for every time! Don't give me "I like it here. I want to come back. I want you to bring the rest of the team back so we can win it all..." If they felt that way, they'd be flexible in their contract structure [look at football players that like their teams] and ten percent in a $36 million dollar contract wouldn't be the deciding factor.

 

I didn't say a thing about JR and his operating procedures. My point is simply this: As soon as we lose a player, all evil lies with JR and the Sox. Not once do I hear: "Hey, Bart? What about wanting to come back? What about anting to win it all here? What about wanting your team mates back? What about the fans here that likee you?"

 

Face it. Most of you are angered and hurt because the owners make business decisions. But when a player makes a decision based TOTALLY on CASH in their pockets, it's the bad owners. It's never the greedy, self-serving players, is it? The players never get any disdain about the line of bull they fed all of you before they walked to the other team merely for a few dollars more...

 

Wake up! It's a business. And for almost any player you can name for me, it's more a business than it is for the owners.

 

Forkit!

Where is it ever agreed that the deferred comp includes interest. I do not believe this is the case.

[southsider2k5]

Hey Fork, in Robins case I totally believe he wanted to come back here. The Sox offered him only 3 years for $18 mil. The Mets offered him 4 years at $32 mil. That is almost twice as much money and one more year. The Sox offer was a smack in the face.

[Rex Hudler]

Hey Fork, in Robins case I totally believe he wanted to come back here.  The Sox offered him only 3 years for $18 mil.  The Mets offered him 4 years at $32 mil.  That is almost twice as much money and one more year.  The Sox offer was a smack in the face.

Yeah, I know I sure couldn't live on $18 million over the next 3 years.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, I know I sure couldn't live on $18 million over the next 3 years.

I agree with Fork. When you are talking about 10% or so, that is one thing. But when the team you have put your whole career into offers you half of what someone else does, during your prime earning years, it is an insult.

[forkit]

You don't have to quote the whole diatribe to ask a simple question...

 

That would depend on the structure of the contract. Actually, the terms of interest are negotiated all the time. Don't believe me? Frank has an interest free loan from the club. Do you think that's because the Sox just make all loans or deferrments interest free, no matter which side gets the cash benefit? Interest is part of the negotitation. And again, these days, what does your savings account pay you? 0.00 percent? 1.0 percent? It ain't much. For a three year contract deferrment, a player could get the money for 3 percent or less.

 

But again!!! He'd be getting $8 or $10 mill IN CASH each year. What could he possibly do with the money that he'd need the deferred amount this year? As long as he gets it, it's pretty token in this interest rate environment. If we were back in the days of 15-20 percent interest rates, it would really matter. But today? Why would he need all of it in cash?

 

Anyone remember that Walter Payton's big payday included a huge portion of money paid out annually AFTER he was done with football? That makes sense...

 

But once again, the player, his agent and the media all have you putting all the negativity on an owner, any owner, that doesn't meet every demand in exactly the form the player wants.

 

They made him a more than fair offer. Remember, there aren't other players signing yet. SOME people [besides me] are predicting another declining year for player's salaries. They started out at $12 mill per. That ain't an insult. And he may not get more.

 

Think about it: If this deal wasn't good enough to Bart because 10 percent of the contract was deferred and on that ten percent, he might lose 3 percent in interest payments...We're talking about $36,000 total here. Did you do the math? 36K? On a $12 or $13 million dollar deal? Who's being greedy here???

 

But I'm sure it will be JR's fault, no matter what happens.

 

Forkit!

[Rex Hudler]

I agree with Fork.  When you are talking about 10% or so, that is one thing.  But when the team you have put your whole career into offers you half of what someone else does, during your prime earning years, it is an insult.

I understand the difference...... I was just being a smartass. I have said this before and will say it again however. The difference between $18 million and $32 million is basically nothing. Either way, you can have anything and everything you want, as long as you aren't stupid with your money.

[Rex Hudler]

Forkit, I agree with you completely.... I am just not sure that Bart is thinking of or trying to understand the economics of it. I am not sure even the agent does either. On the surface, getting all of the money up front sounds much better than deferring money. It makes the agent look better and gets him more money up front.

 

I am not saying that the agent doesn't understand this, but that he probably doesn't care. As you say, it is all about the money most of the time anyway. Jim Thome was a prime example. They guy cried and said that he didn't want to leave Cleveland, yet they offered him more money than he will ever need for the rest of his life, but because that wasn't as much as someone else, he jumped ship. Some guys want to stay somewhere and may actually mean it when they say it, but somewhere in the process that gets lost. Whether it is listening to the wrong people or being "courted" by the new team or just the $$, no one knows. But very few players stick around for the "hometown discount" anymore because in the baseball world, happiness is money.

 

to the Tony Gwynn's of the world that had some common sense about themselves and realized that they were getting all they needed and more wasn't necessary.

[aboz56]

One problem with going after Ponson:

 

If we give him more money than Buehrle or Loaiza, won't that ruffle feathers in the clubhouse. Buehrle has been a better pitcher than Ponson over the last three years. He deserves more. And Loaiza was a better pitcher in 2003. He'll believe that he deserves more.

 

I fear that a big-money offer to Ponson is a big risk.

Mark can make a lot more $$. He's got to make a decision. The ball is in his court. Loaiza is making what the option was. No room for discussion there.

I surprised that no one asked you this question, yet. But, what is this decision Mark has to make? Is there another contract offer on the table?

No, the Sox clearly aren't that intelligent.

 

Enjoy Buehrle for the 3 more years we have him, because after that, he's going to bolt unless something changes drastically around here.

[Dick Allen]

Robin made the correct decision. He got a heck of a lot more money, and got to play in the World Series, something he wouldn't have done here. Believe me, Schueler knew there was no way Robin would have accepted his offer, or the offer would have been even lower. It was a token offer to show the fans they tried.

[southpaw40]

Cubkilla:

 

If you think I'm JR...you're smoking something.

 

You miss my point. Entirely.

 

Aren't you the least bit tired of players playing that same sad tune over and over:

 

"I love it here. I want to come back. I think we have a shot at it all next year. I want them to bring back this team intact. I don't want to go to New York. Just give me a fair offer and I'm here and let's go get it done."

 

How many times do you hear this? The one that broke my heart was Robin Ventura. Look, I have nothing against a player going for the money. But please! Have the GUTS to just stand up and tell it straight: I don't give a damn about this team or the fans that are pleading with me to come back. If another team offers me a dime more, I'm out of here!

 

Doesn't that piss you off?

 

Look at the Colon situation. Now people are whining because he may have passed on the offer because deferred compensation was involved. As I pointed out, to those of you that don't understand the economics, a player can simply take the guaranteed portion of the contract that is deferred to the bank and get a loan against it. It ain't no big deal. And the interest is basically cancelled out by the interest the club pays on the deferred protion to the player. It helps the team with cash flow but it doesn't hurt the player, especially when the player still gets $8 or $10 mill a year IN CASH!

 

Now let's pretend we offered him $12 mill and the Yankees end up signing him for $13.5 mill. That's roughly ten percent difference. That's not much. If that's the difference between staying here or "going where Colon doesn't want to go," then the truth of the matter is this: His only concern was going to the highest bidder.

 

I don't mind that. But have the GUTS to say it. Just say this: I want all the money I can get. I'm going to pitch for the team that pays me the most.

 

But don't throw out all that crap that MOST of the fans here fall for every time! Don't give me "I like it here. I want to come back. I want you to bring the rest of the team back so we can win it all..." If they felt that way, they'd be flexible in their contract structure [look at football players that like their teams] and ten percent in a $36 million dollar contract wouldn't be the deciding factor.

 

I didn't say a thing about JR and his operating procedures. My point is simply this: As soon as we lose a player, all evil lies with JR and the Sox. Not once do I hear: "Hey, Bart? What about wanting to come back? What about anting to win it all here? What about wanting your team mates back? What about the fans here that likee you?"

 

Face it. Most of you are angered and hurt because the owners make business decisions. But when a player makes a decision based TOTALLY on CASH in their pockets, it's the bad owners. It's never the greedy, self-serving players, is it? The players never get any disdain about the line of bull they fed all of you before they walked to the other team merely for a few dollars more...

 

Wake up! It's a business. And for almost any player you can name for me, it's more a business than it is for the owners.

 

Forkit!

May I call you next time I want to say something, but can't say it eloquently enough to suit me? And then will you express my thoughts with your eloquence?

Not to mention the factual content is astounding!

[Rex Hudler]

I think Buehrle knows that the Sox would talk multi-year deal with him again if they had interest. I just don't see the Sox budging much if any from their stance from last year.

 

I would not be surprised if some kind of deal was struck to avoid arbitration, even if it was only a one-year deal.

[Dick Allen]

95% of players are in it for all the money they could possibly make. Anything the say otherwise is complete BS. They have agents they pay, who aren't interested about their client being in a situation where he is comfortable, but rather about maximizing dollars earned. The agents reputation will be ruined if they start having their players sign for less than market value. Valentin signed for less than Baltimore offered him in 2000, but it wasn't significantly less. Speaking of Valentin, I find it quite humorous he says he will sign for less to stay with the Sox if they are going to be a contender. What is the going rate for a .230 hitting SS?

[winninguglyin83]

put me in the Fork-It camp,

 

The players have skillfully painted the owners into the role of bogeyman for 20-plus years. That's why we're paying $13 to park, $36 for box seats, $4.75 for a watered down Sprite, yada, yada, yada.

 

the players association drills these guys to say they want to stay with the hometown team for a 'reasonable' offer, but you never hear what their idea of reasonable is. What gets leaked is the team offer. We have NO IDEA what Colon thinks is reasonable. All they're saying is they like Chicago, the message every player gives.

 

If the Sox truly did offer Colon even $36 million, three-years guaranteed, that is certainly fair.

 

If that won't work, let him walk because it is just another reminder that the players association pulls the puppeteer strings and essentially orders these guys to shop themselves and drive up salaries. If a player takes less to stay with his current team, the players blast him.

 

Bottom line: If Bartolo leaves, all the blame does not go to the White Sox. Bartolo and his agent deserve an ample serving, too.

 

Let's not forget one thing: JR let Black Jack, Alex Fernandez and Wilson Alvarez walk.

 

All three got ridiculous deals.

 

All three got injured early in the contracts.

 

And it was the Yankees, Marlins and Devil Rays who got stuck with the tab, not the Sox.

 

Reinsdorf is a sharp businessman. Would I like to see a higher payroll? Sure. But I'm glad he doesn't spend as foolishly as the Dodgers, Orioles, Mets and others.

[Steff]

One problem with going after Ponson:

 

If we give him more money than Buehrle or Loaiza, won't that ruffle feathers in the clubhouse. Buehrle has been a better pitcher than Ponson over the last three years. He deserves more. And Loaiza was a better pitcher in 2003. He'll believe that he deserves more.

 

I fear that a big-money offer to Ponson is a big risk.

Mark can make a lot more $$. He's got to make a decision. The ball is in his court. Loaiza is making what the option was. No room for discussion there.

I surprised that no one asked you this question, yet. But, what is this decision Mark has to make? Is there another contract offer on the table?

Well.. they only came to an agreement on last year's salary.. correct? I'm sure there's talks going on.

[CubKilla]

Aren't you the least bit tired of players playing that same sad tune over and over:

 

"I love it here. I want to come back. I think we have a shot at it all next year. I want them to bring back this team intact. I don't want to go to New York. Just give me a fair offer and I'm here and let's go get it done."

 

How many times do you hear this? The one that broke my heart was Robin Ventura. Look, I have nothing against a player going for the money. But please! Have the GUTS to just stand up and tell it straight: I don't give a damn about this team or the fans that are pleading with me to come back. If another team offers me a dime more, I'm out of here!

 

Doesn't that piss you off?

Yeah I'm sick of it. I realize owners, players, agents, etc. have turned baseball into a money-making proposition rather than what it is..... a game.

 

But gimme a break here. Other than JR signing Albert Belle for more than he was worth..... this was, IMHO, done to spite the other MLB owners who voted to end the strike of '94 that JR wanted to continue at vote time..... when has JR EVER been seriously involved in the bidding war for a game-changing, PREMIER free-agent acquisition? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

 

Fact is, JR has always done EVERYTHING on the cheap so your argument of "JR is running the team with fiscal responsibility in mind" holds no water because THIS IS ALWAYS THE WAY JR HAS RUN THE WHITE SOX ORGANIZATION. I mean Jesus..... he couldn't even pay to renovate the taxpayer funded stadium the White Sox now call home..... he had to sell the naming rights so someone else could undo his mistake. It is not like JR has gone out, overpaid in a few offseasons for 3-4 premier free-agents, and been burned with a 3rd or 4th place finish in the Division each time. Fans show up after the Organization shows a pulse this past July and, for that, we're rewarded with a reported offseason payroll increase of a whopping 3-8 million dollars!

 

I'm not advocating for JR to go out and overspend ala the Mets. But goddamn..... after 20+ years of JR and his cheap ass BS it is time to spend BUT spend responsibly.

[forkit]

I guess you can call me names if you want, if that makes you feel better.

 

But the truth is, this is a business, on both sides of the aisle. It's sad that most fans, including you, can't keep that in perspective.

 

The Sox were one of the final bidders in the ARod sweepstakes, I believe [though Boras lied about the size and structure of their offer and then the Txes gentleman blinked in a bad game of poker and paid...well...waaaay too much].

 

Tell me again why the Sox MUST be the highest bidder on any player? It's a business. He apparently tries to buy value [like picking up Colon in a trade and hoping he can persuade him to extend his contract] instead of overpaying in what may be an environment of declining salaries. What's wrong with that? Doesn't suit you? So what? You don't own one share of the Sox.

 

Now you want to throw the stadium renovations into the same discussion? What does that have to do with anything? He's a business owner! If you can get anyone else to pay for the stadium, you'd be a poor business owner if you ponied up one red cent. That's business. Don't like it? Run for office and get on the stadium board and get yourself a vote.

 

Somehow everyone seems to think that just because they like a player, they DESERVE to have the owner of the team they follow go out and pay whatever it takes to get him cost be damned. Oh, and change the color of the seats, just because they don't like the color!

 

Should the Sox have to send over the grounds crew to your house and do your lawn twice a week, too, just because you watch the Sox on TV?

 

It's a business. Players want all the money they can get. Owners put out their own capital to buy a business and they do their best to make money. Their number one priority is always to make money. If they're lucky and make a few decisions that play out right, they might end up being the Marlins of that particular year.

 

Remember: If they don't make money, they eventually have to sell. So why would they do anything but try to improve their bottom line?

 

And no, I won't bother making a movie reference...

 

Forkit!