Moore sued by NIchols brother

[FlaSoxxJim]

Yeah, Texas. The old joke is that Texas is also the only state that allows you to mount a murder defense of, "Well, he just needed killin'."

 

I've really just been ticked of at Texas since my favorite brewery, Austin's Celis Brewery, closed its doors. Miller's fault more than any one else's of course, for buying interest and then killing it, but I miss that witbier!

 

I appreciate the forethought of the Founding Fathers. The called the general populace of their day "poor reptiles" that would "bask in the sun, ere noon, they will bite." Yet despite their understanding that the average citizen was no great shakes, they ensured that there was a constitutional right to bear arms in defense of the state. The unwritten side of that is that the People can also exist as a very real check against abuse of power of an elected government that devolves to tyrany.

 

But "RIGHT to revolt" explicitly suggests a specific constitutional provision or charter, as exists for the right to free expression, right to free religious pursuit, right to bear arms as part of a well regulated melitia, right to PEACABLY (i.e., in a non-revolutionary manner) assemble, etc. Texas excepted, my question is where is the RIGHT (not the means) to revolt guaranteed for the citizenry of the country?

[mmmmmbeeer]

 

Do you realize that with our gun culture, the highest % of weapon yieldingzs/trained individuals per capita in the entire world (by far), there is no chance of a successful land campaign against this country by an The minute we lose our right to bear arms we lose our right to revolt.

Let me apologize up front for my apparent ignorance on the issue. Please point me to the source of our "right to revolt." I just reread the 2nd Ammendment a bunch of times and I can't find it there. I read a couple state constitutions (even Tennessee's), and could not trace the source of our right to revolt. If the right to bear arms was repealed then certainly the ABILITY to successfully astage a revolt may also be taken away. But right and ability are two diffferent matters. I see the constitutional protection for the wherewithall of revolution but not for the right to undertake one.

There is no "right to revolt" anywhere. Like Sox4Life stated, it's not so much directly stated but is most certainly implied. Here are a few quotes I was able to dig up off the web to give you an idea of where our forefathers stood on (cough, cough) gun "control". I think it's pretty obvious how these guys felt about an issue that is such a challenge today. BTW, after reading these quotes ask yourself what has changed without thinking about the impact of mass media on public opinion. I have a feeling that you, much like myself, will struggle to find an answer.

 

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." --Thomas Jefferson

 

"Arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe and preserve order in the world as well as property." Thomas Paine

 

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government..." Alexander Hamilton

 

"The Constitution shall never be construed...to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." Alexander Hamilton

 

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." Alexander Hamilton

 

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable...The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference—they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." George Washington

 

"Americans need never fear their government because of the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation." James Madison

 

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed." Patrick Henry

 

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium (safeguard) of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, 1833

 

"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People." Tench Coxe (1788)

 

"If gun laws in fact worked, the sponsors of this type of legislation should have no difficulty drawing upon long lists of examples of crime rates reduced by such legislation. That they cannot do so after a century and a half of trying—that they must sweep under the rug the southern attempts at gun control in the 1870-1910 period, the northeastern attempts in the 1920-1939 period, and the attempts at both Federal and State levels in 1965-1976—establishes the repeated, complete, and inevitable failure of gun laws to control serious crime."

Senator Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah)

[FlaSoxxJim]

mmmmmBeer, this is actually a thought provoking discussion. Thank you for taking the time to find those quotes.

 

The Founding Fathers were passionate, engaged men. That the core beliefs framed by them more than two centuries ago still stand as the cornerstones of government is amazing.

 

But, the opinions of the Founding Fathers were much more dynamic than their words – frozen in time and taken out of precise historical context – can convey. Hamilton is the one, from your quote list, that I am most familiar with. I have not read the new biography, and a lot of my knowledge of he and the other FF’s is from R. Hofstadter’s American Political Tradition, which I admit is getting long in the tooth.

 

There are no dates for the following Hamilton quotes you provide:

 

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government..." Alexander Hamilton

 

"The Constitution shall never be construed...to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." Alexander Hamilton

 

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." Alexander Hamilton

 

I will venture a guess (I’m not stating with certainty) that the statements were made before, during, or immediately following the Revolutionary War. At that time, Hamilton was a typical Whig in his political ideology… very big on natural rights and personal liberty. But, he changed his own leanings in dramatic fashion just after this period, and was actually very fearful of the penchant of the people for promoting anarchy. Hamilton actually was the first major proponent of a strong centralized government. A concept that is anathema to so many personal freedoms advocates today, but was largely put in motion by a former hardcore personal freedoms Founding Father. Many of his contemporaries thought his notion of the need for a strong centralized government was oppressive. To his credit, he worked with others toward a government that was not his ideal, but he never suppressed his own beliefs on the subject.

 

(Aside: Hamilton was also the first to advocate the direct collection of income taxes from the populace by an appointed tax agency of the government, and he proposed such even during his Whig days.)

 

Not detracting anything away from the man, just pointing out that he personally changed his viewpoints on personal determination over the span of a few short years. So in answer to the question of ‘what has changed in the last 200 years to think we don’t still need guns in everybody’s hands,’ I would suggest the reality is that quite a lot has changed. Hamilton sensed the climate had changed enough in about a decade to start to tone down is rhetoric on the subject, and certainly the change since then has been equally dramatic.

 

This is a good discussion. I won’t reiterate the earlier allusions to statistics suggesting you are like a million times more likely to have your kid accidentally shoot himself or someone else then you are of preserving personal freedom with the handgun under your pillow. I do enjoy the partial irony that one-time advocate of arming the citizenry Alex Hamilton was killed in a duel (by Aaron Burr of the “Got Milk” commercial fame). These Founding Gangbangers were having it out over the way Hamilton had dissed Burr’s political ambitions over an extended period of time (shoulda had a 48-hour cooling off period then I guess). Some authorities contend Hamilton was not planning on firing at all (I’m not a gun guy, but in a duel I don’t think ‘stand there’ would be my strategy). They state that his gun fired after he was hit and felled. Hamilton’s apparent pacifist stance toward the end of his life probably had a lot to do with the fact that his own son had earlier also been killed in a duel.

 

The quotes attributed to Hamilton and often used to advocate handgun rights are frozen in time, even though Hamilton himself was not. He, ironically, became somewhat Torey-like in his concern that the masses really were “poor reptiles” that would not accede to the “better sort” when they should. He came to believe people were ‘reasoning but not reasoned,’ but his earlier writings can not reflect this of course.

[YASNY]

All I have to say about this issue is that I do not own a gun of any type. But, if they outlaw them I will ASAP. That's when the s*** will hit the fan. See Nazi Germany for an example.

 

Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

[bjmarte]

All I have to say about this issue is that I do not own a gun of any type.  But, if they outlaw them I will ASAP. That's when the s*** will hit the fan.  See Nazi Germany for an example. 

 

Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

That's how I feel too. I don't own one and won't until I feel I need to. I like knowing that I can though and I won't be happy when sombody says I can't.

[sox4lifeinPA]

I applaud the quality posts guys. Much appreciated.

 

At that time, Hamilton was a typical Whig in his political ideology… very big on natural rights and personal liberty. But, he changed his own leanings in dramatic fashion just after this period

 

I understand that party politics have always been around, but I'd argue that things are worse now than ever because of mass media covering events the minute they happen. Regardless, they were making this stuff as they were going. I'd like to read a biography on Hamilton. He was 20 when the Revolutionary war broke out. He was 30 when they were working on the Constitution. How many of us change/refine our opinions during that decade? I'm in the middle of that right now and I can tell you while I started off being gun-ho about guns and lessened my opinion, like Hamilton, I still saw value and the importance of a society with the ability to chose gun ownership.

 

personal aside: I do not think the State of Texas and its constituency would ever stand for things like making handguns or gas-guzzeling trucks(off topic, sorry) illegal. joking aside, I think things like that would cause revolutionary events. they're just THAT fanatical about those issues.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Hamilton Bio

 

just in case anyone wanted to check it out. Humble background. very interesting.

[whitesoxfan99]

I applaud the quality posts guys. Much appreciated.

As do I. Wouldn't it be nice if we could always debate like this instead of stooping to personal attacks.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

I applaud the quality posts guys. Much appreciated.

As do I. Wouldn't it be nice if we could always debate like this instead of stooping to personal attacks.

Where's the fun in that asswipe

[whitesoxfan99]

I applaud the quality posts guys. Much appreciated.

As do I. Wouldn't it be nice if we could always debate like this instead of stooping to personal attacks.

Where's the fun in that asswipe

Oh, so you're calling me an asswipe and a red x now, I'll show you :fyou

[sox4lifeinPA]

I applaud the quality posts guys. Much appreciated.

As do I. Wouldn't it be nice if we could always debate like this instead of stooping to personal attacks.

now you're just getting silly

[FlaSoxxJim]

I applaud the quality posts guys. Much appreciated.

As do I. Wouldn't it be nice if we could always debate like this instead of stooping to personal attacks.

Where's the fun in that asswipe

[southsider2k5]

I applaud the quality posts guys. Much appreciated.

As do I. Wouldn't it be nice if we could always debate like this instead of stooping to personal attacks.

Where's the fun in that asswipe

Oh, so you're calling me an asswipe and a red x now, I'll show you :fyou

HEY :fyou AND YOUR MOTHER!

 

Sorry I felt left out.

 

Anyway wasn't it Jefferson who said something about revolution being a necesity if the government became too out of touch with its citizens?

 

[IlliniBob72]

There's really no such thing as a "right to revolt", really. I mean, sure, the people have a right to revolt, but the government, who has given you this "right", reserves the right to blow your ass to hell. Thanks for the right to revolt, buddy!

 

I don't own a gun either, but if it weren't for my wife and kids, I'd consider it for protection. There are plenty of illegal things in this country, i.e. drugs, prostitution, drunk driving, and *gasp* shooting people. Last I've heard, drug use is rampant, drunk driving is a major problem, and there are still prostitutes. If owning guns becomes illegal, I imagine all forms of gun control will disappear; no more gun registry, no need for serial numbers, no background checks, etc. Will the supply of guns dry up? Minimally, IMO. You or I won't be able to get one because we likely wouldn't search out a black market gun dealer. The gangbangers will get them then the same way they get them now...illegally. Yes, the law-abiding jealous husbands who catch their wives f***ing some other guy won't have his gun to reach for to shoot them both, which is a good thing, but the major component of gun related crime comes from those who will continue to have guns.

[sox4lifeinPA]

There's really no such thing as a "right to revolt", really. I mean, sure, the people have a right to revolt, but the government, who has given you this "right", reserves the right to blow your ass to hell. Thanks for the right to revolt, buddy! 

 

I don't own a gun either, but if it weren't for my wife and kids, I'd consider it for protection. There are plenty of illegal things in this country, i.e. drugs, prostitution, drunk driving, and *gasp* shooting people. Last I've heard, drug use is rampant, drunk driving is a major problem, and there are still prostitutes. If owning guns becomes illegal, I imagine all forms of gun control will disappear; no more gun registry, no need for serial numbers, no background checks, etc. Will the supply of guns dry up? Minimally, IMO. You or I won't be able to get one because we likely wouldn't search out a black market gun dealer. The gangbangers will get them then the same way they get them now...illegally. Yes, the law-abiding jealous husbands who catch their wives f***ing some other guy won't have his gun to reach for to shoot them both, which is a good thing, but the major component of gun related crime comes from those who will continue to have guns.

a la England.... well said, in your colorful way Bob.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Without getting into lots of detail, anyone who does not see that there is a gun-death epidemic in this country simply chooses not to see that fact. Recognizing a problem and providing a solution are two different matters, of course.

 

Last year, CDC reported 11,127 gun deaths in the US, and the 2002 US population estimate was around 280.5 million. Canada’s population of ca. 32 million is about 11.5% that of the US. To be on par with us, Canadians would need to shoot dead around 1,280 of their countrymen. In reality, only 165 Canadians died from gunshots in 2002, so clearly they are not keeping pace with the Big Dogs. Germany’s population (ca 83 million in 2002) is 30% that of the US. So if they were as gun happy as us, they should have offed around 3,340 of each other last year. They, of course, also dropped the ball and only shot 381 fellow citizens dead.

 

Gun control barely exists in the country at the present. Let’s start with real gun control reform, not an outright ban on personal firearms. I see sportsmen’s ownership of guns as perfectly legitimate, and I think most sportsmen are responsible gun owners. I don’t see a pressing need for public availability of high-powered handguns, assault weapons, semi-automatic rifles, etc. Very powerful lobbying entities for years have thwarted real gun control reform by hiding behind the Second Amendment. The movie and video game industry has no similarly powerful lobby (and let’s face it, the First Amendment has taken a rather severe beating since 9-11). Since comic books, TV, Marylyn Manson, etc., have all had their turns, the makers of violent video games will now take the fall as the source of all the youth violence this go around (That’s an observation and not a defense of the video game industry, which has done a very poor job of keeping highly objectionable material out of the hands of kids.).

 

Drug use, alcoholism, prostitution…certainly issues to deal with. But that doesn’t mean gun violence in the nation shouldn’t also be addressed.

[Queen Prawn]

Without getting into lots of detail, anyone who does not see that there is a gun-death epidemic in this country simply chooses not to see that fact.  Recognizing a problem and providing a solution are two different matters, of course.

I know what you mean.

 

When I was 16, my family moved because the gangs were threatening to kill my sister and brother (they were 12 and 13 respecitively) because they wouldn't join the gang. One week later, a 4 year old girl who lived a block away was shot to death in a drive by. All she was doing was sitting on the porch with her parents (it turned out to be a case of mistaken identity). The little girl was a co-worker's god-daughter.

 

25 years ago my cousin's husband was shot in the abdomen. He lived, but he contract some virus or something and now he can barely walk because his muscles won't do what they are supposed to do.

 

That's only two of many people that I have know to be shot as a result of an accident or a mugging.

 

I can see both sides of the gun argument so I really can't say who I agree with more.

[southsider2k5]

The thing about gun control is all we have to do is enforce the laws that we have on the books now. We don't need more laws and worthless legislation. We need results.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Without getting into lots of detail, anyone who does not see that there is a gun-death epidemic in this country simply chooses not to see that fact.  Recognizing a problem and providing a solution are two different matters, of course.

I know what you mean.

 

When I was 16, my family moved because the gangs were threatening to kill my sister and brother (they were 12 and 13 respecitively) because they wouldn't join the gang. One week later, a 4 year old girl who lived a block away was shot to death in a drive by. All she was doing was sitting on the porch with her parents (it turned out to be a case of mistaken identity). The little girl was a co-worker's god-daughter.

 

25 years ago my cousin's husband was shot in the abdomen. He lived, but he contract some virus or something and now he can barely walk because his muscles won't do what they are supposed to do.

 

That's only two of many people that I have know to be shot as a result of an accident or a mugging.

 

I can see both sides of the gun argument so I really can't say who I agree with more.

both of those cases sound like people having guns who shouldn't have. Those stories will only increase when everyday citizens have their guns taken away. Criminals will always have access on some level to weapons. It can't get easier than that.