Nightengale: Gio won't be on 2024 White Sox

[caulfield12]

Zero point to hold onto Lopez, Grandal, Bummer, Graveman, etc. 

Probably hold onto most unlikeable in Clevinger, but a parting of ways there would be far from shocking on either Sox or player side. 

From a leadership viewpoint, Hendriks definitely has value, but not worth what they're paying on a non-competitive team when they can just roll with the likes of Santos Middleton and Lambert, at least until his arm falls off. 

[dohnut]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I don't think it will matter much but the Sox rotation next year looks like Cease, Kopech, Martin...?...?...?

I’ll be shocked if Cease is here next year.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Since 2000, the only time the Sox seem to assemble a winning pitching group is when the scrap heap guys or longshot picks they get for their rotation actually work out, or when longtime mediocre pitchers have a fluke good year or half year.

It literally never seems to be FA acquisitions with proven high quality ML talent. 

 

That's because this ownership/organization has their own ideas about how to "win". How's that worked out so far? ?

[Greg Hibbard]

Just now, Lip Man 1 said:

That's because this ownership/organization has their own ideas about how to "win". How's that worked out so far? ?

And the problem is that it worked once because they backed into a championship. It’s like they are the Beverly hillbillies of baseball - they accidentally struck gold in their backyard and got rich, but have no clue they have no clue about anything. 

[The Kids Can Play]

23 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Bob Nightengale (JR's personal mouthpiece) is reporting that if the Sox don't get back into the race they will be looking to move players at the deadline but regardless of if they get back into it or not, if they don't trade him, they have already decided not to bring Lucas Giolito back after this season.

Giolito will be a free agent after the season and if Nightengale is to be believed, no negotiations will be taking place to see if a new deal can be reached.

I wish Nightengale could have asked him to discuss his feelings on the results of Sox 2016 rebuild thus far. I would love to see those comments from JR. Typical POS Reinsdorf as he always does...blame Gio and the other Sox players for this downfall.

Where is the accountability of Kenny and Hahn and all the threats on their jobs from this demented owner?

Edited May 8, 2023 by The Kids Can Play

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Greg Hibbard said:

And the problem is that it worked once because they backed into a championship. It’s like they are the Beverly hillbillies of baseball - they accidentally struck gold in their backyard and got rich, but have no clue they have no clue about anything. 

Contreras Jenks Hermanson El Duque AJ Dye Pods Iguchi (lucked into by KW scouting only via video, no budget to actually go to JPN) Politte Marte Cotts Everett Takatsu Ozuna all pretty much off the scrap heap. 

F. Garcia their one premium trade target. 

 

Where all the money previously going to Maggs Lee Valentin went. 

[Chick Mercedes]

4 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Bob Nightengale (JR's personal mouthpiece) is reporting that if the Sox don't get back into the race they will be looking to move players at the deadline but regardless of if they get back into it or not, if they don't trade him, they have already decided not to bring Lucas Giolito back after this season.

Giolito will be a free agent after the season and if Nightengale is to be believed, no negotiations will be taking place to see if a new deal can be reached.

Interesting they still aren’t sure what they have here yet in order to make changes. These are people that need to be hit in the face with a swing shovel so that they realize they are on the ground.. Stepping on rakes for years hasn’t done much.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

No s%*#, Bob.

[joejoesox]

5 hours ago, Soxfest said:

JR is on record saying he will not give starting pitchers long term deals. Cease will be gone at some point. 

i mean they made a decent offer to Wheeler 

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

The Sox MO.  What they usually get isn't really different then letting him walk,   Then in the FA market they only sign something.

The issue is scouting. 

They will probably be duking it out for last place with the Royals the rest of my lifetime. 

Well, except for years the Royals win the pennant (2014) and World Series (2015).

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

???

Great timing started playing decent baseball and Nightengale comes out with this ?

It's like Eloy and Robert are both hot at the same time, quick, put something in Eloy's drink and give him appendicitis and knock him out of action for 4-6 weeks.

Burger  picking up where he left off hitting bombs and even playing OK at 3rd base ? Bam strained oblique !

Who's next from the Sox ironmen that would hurt the most Cease? Vaughn ? Benintendi ? Hmm a starting pitcher going down right when Hendriks comes back seems about right .

 

[Lip Man 1]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

???

Great timing started playing decent baseball and Nightengale comes out with this ?

It's like Eloy and Robert are both hot at the same time, quick, put something in Eloy's drink and give him appendicitis and knock him out of action for 4-6 weeks.

Burger  picking up where he left off hitting bombs and even playing OK at 3rd base ? Bam strained oblique !

Who's next from the Sox ironmen that would hurt the most Cease? Vaughn ? Benintendi ? Hmm a starting pitcher going down right when Hendriks comes back seems about right .

 

It's the White Sox way. 

[GreatScott82]

I think finishing 81-81 would be a reach at this point. They will be selling pieces by June. Remember, Jerry recently said- you can still have successful years on the business end of things, he doesn’t mind another 2nd or 3rd place finish. ? 

Another Rick Hahn rebuild on the way. But it will be classified as a “re-tool” to silence anyone who bashes him for attempting ANOTHER rebuild. Hahn will get fleeced on his deals yet again. Why? Because he’s the worst GM in the MLB. 

The Sox have the worst owner in the MLB and the worse GM in the MLB. It will remain as such until Hahn resigns. But why would he resign? They’ll keep cancelling Soxfests before they let their ‘fantastic’ GM leave. He has a job where there is no consequences for sucking for 10 years. It’s a dream job! 
Dear Lord, help us!! 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by GreatScott82

[South Side Hit Men]

43 minutes ago, GreatScott82 said:

I think finishing 81-81 would be a reach at this point. They will be selling pieces by June. Remember, Jerry recently said- you can still have successful years on the business end of things, he doesn’t mind another 2nd or 3rd place finish. ? 

Another Rick Hahn rebuild on the way. But it will be classified as a “re-tool” to silence anyone who bashes him for attempting ANOTHER rebuild. Hahn will get fleeced on his deals yet again. Why? Because he’s the worst GM in the MLB. 

The Sox have the worst owner in the MLB and the worse GM in the MLB. It will remain as such until Hahn resigns. But why would he resign? They’ll keep cancelling Soxfests before they let their ‘fantastic’ GM leave. He has a job where there is no consequences for sucking for 10 years. It’s a dream job! 
Dear Lord, help us!! 

With the farcical 14 team playoff money grab, 3rd / 4th in the division and 8th - 10th in the American League is the new “2nd place”, and that’s where I expect the Sox to target until Jerry passes, beyond if there is similar ownership. I expect payroll to drop to $100M-$140M over the next two years.

To me it looks like they are trying to become Oakland light with all the anti fan policies (no stadium staffing, little to no season ticket perks, bad on field product) to angle for a new stadium or relocation. It’s not like Jerry hadn’t done this to the franchise and fans before. F him and his “meaningful games in September” bullshit.

[bmags]

Hope you guys liked the Zack duke for Charlie Tilson trades because that’s what you’ll be seeing here. 

[caulfield12]

22 minutes ago, bmags said:

Hope you guys liked the Zack duke for Charlie Tilson trades because that’s what you’ll be seeing here. 

Just cutting payroll incrementally at the margins while pretending to have the veneer of a younger/cheaper/competitive team if everything goes exactly right. 

More Nestor Molina, Zach Stewart and Dylan Axelrod types to pick up starts rather than established, pricier veteran names. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by caulfield12

[PitchatRisktoZisk]

When JR wants to send a message, the mouthpiece writes a column. JR wanted it to be known a) ALL the on field failure is on the players, b) talk of "accountability and responsibility" by Williams and Hahn was them being good soldiers who have been let down by the selfish, lazy players. Also, thanks JR for making sure the Sox had ZERO trade leverage with Gio. We all know you weren't going to resign him, but maybe the "illusion" we had an interest (in even a QO) might have sweetened whatever deal we ultimately make for him. The clown show continues unabated. 

[bighurt4life]

4 hours ago, GreatScott82 said:

Hahn will get fleeced on his deals yet again. Why? Because he’s the worst GM in the MLB. 

The Sox have the worst owner in the MLB and the worse GM in the MLB. It will remain as such until Hahn resigns. But why would he resign? They’ll keep cancelling Soxfests before they let their ‘fantastic’ GM leave. He has a job where there is no consequences for sucking for 10 years. It’s a dream job! 
Dear Lord, help us!! 

 

 

 

Gonna have to disagree on this, Hahn has a history of giving just as good as he gets when making trades. I’ll point to the trades that started this rebuild. 

C. Sale to the R Sox, we got Moncada and Kopech back. Pretty good (not great) return instead of watching sale waste his best years on a losing team. Sale has given them 20 WAR and we’ve gotten 14 from yoan, kopech, only 3 from Kopech. 
Grade- B

Adam Eaton to Nationals for Giolito, Lopez, and Dunning (traded for Lance Lynn)  Nationals got 5 WAR from Eaton, we have gotten a total of nearly 30 WAR from our return.

Grade- A+

Quintana to the Cubs for Eloy and Cease. Q gave the Cubs like 6 or 7 war. We all know how good Cease has become and if Eloy could stay healthy he’s an all star caliber player.  We have about 15 WAR between the two so far. 

Grade-A
 

I agree that it’s time for Hahn to go, BUT let’s keep things in perspective, he is not the worst GM in the game. To say so is just hyperbole. 

[caulfield12]

Worst GM or not, why in God's name would he be allowed yet another shot to rebuild when he failed in that endeavor as well as failing to compete on the fly from 2013-2016? 

What exactly can he do well... besides trade very favorable controlled contracts for those three younger  Sox players? 

 

Let's not forget when he traded Frazier Kahnle Robertson etc., to the Yankees, he got ripped off. 

And the Tatis trade, when all is said and done, will cost how much in lost fWAR? 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Worst GM or not, why in God's name would he be allowed yet another shot to rebuild when he failed in that endeavor as well as failing to compete on the fly from 2013-2016? 

What exactly can he do well... besides trade very favorable controlled contracts for those three younger  Sox players? 

Let's not forget when he traded Frazier Kahnle Robertson etc., to the Yankees, he got ripped off. 

And the Tatis trade, when all is said and done, will cost how much in lost fWAR? 

The trade market doesn’t work as it did several years ago when Hahn pawned everything of worth from Kenny plus Hahn’s one shinning moment, Eaton 1.0.

Teams value their top salary controlled prospects far more today (well except for the Sox flipping for Lynn, Kimbrel recently, far worse during their last “window”). The Sox will not see the same returns on an Eaton, Quintana or even Sale in 2023 that you did in 2016. 

Juan Soto earned 21.4 bWAR by Age 23 and netted Wood, Haskell and Mackenzie Gore last season. 

Max Scherzer (7-0 1.98 ERA w LAD) and Trea Turner (22.3 bWAR through age 28 with Washington) netted Josiah Gray (1.6 bWAR age 25) and  Keibert Ruiz (2.4 / 24).

The White Sox have nobody in these player’s universe in terms of age and production available at the deadline. They will be trading contract relief for marginal prospects in a quest to sink to AL Central Payroll Land.

Career bWAR White Sox Core Players under 30 (7/1/23 Age):

• 16.0 Benintendi (28)
• 4.0 Bummer (29)
• 0.8 Burger (27)
• 9.6 Cease (27)
• -0.9 Colas (24)
• 1.6 Crochet (24)
• 12.0 Giolito (28)
• 5.5 Jimenez (26)
• 3.9 Kopech (27)
• 13.6 Moncada (28)
• AA Ramos (21)
• 9.1 Robert (25)
• AA Rodriguez (22)
• -0.1 Sheets (27)
• 0.0 Vaughn (25)

[joejoesox]

Remember when they were 7-21? 14 games under .500, 9 games back 

They've gone 5-2 since and are (12-23) still 11 games under .500 (7 games back)

Unless they start getting 3 game sweeps, these "series wins" ain't gonna do s%*# to their place in the standings, they're just too far buried, and they don't have the talent to compete with good teams

[Sarava]

4 hours ago, bighurt4life said:

Gonna have to disagree on this, Hahn has a history of giving just as good as he gets when making trades. I’ll point to the trades that started this rebuild. 

C. Sale to the R Sox, we got Moncada and Kopech back. Pretty good (not great) return instead of watching sale waste his best years on a losing team. Sale has given them 20 WAR and we’ve gotten 14 from yoan, kopech, only 3 from Kopech. 
Grade- B

Adam Eaton to Nationals for Giolito, Lopez, and Dunning (traded for Lance Lynn)  Nationals got 5 WAR from Eaton, we have gotten a total of nearly 30 WAR from our return.

Grade- A+

Quintana to the Cubs for Eloy and Cease. Q gave the Cubs like 6 or 7 war. We all know how good Cease has become and if Eloy could stay healthy he’s an all star caliber player.  We have about 15 WAR between the two so far. 

Grade-A
 

I agree that it’s time for Hahn to go, BUT let’s keep things in perspective, he is not the worst GM in the game. To say so is just hyperbole. 

Is it hyperbole? I agree he made a few nice trades to kickoff the rebuild. He's also made some very, very bad trades - 'he who should not be named' being the main one. But I was a fan of his back in the early part of the rebuild, despite the Tatis trade.

What else is there? He's in his 11th season as GM and they've won 2 playoff games in his tenure, and lost both of those playoff series. I dont think its possible for any GM to have a record rooted as deep in failure as Hahn's, because other owners would have shitcanned him a long time ago.

The rebuild is already dying a very painful death.

Under Hahn, they've shown a near-total inability to draft or develop at an acceptable rate. What have they drafted or developed since Timmy - who was drafted 10 years ago? That right there is this team's biggest problem. It's almost impossible to compete for a championship if you basically never have good talent coming up in the system to plug holes or cover injuries. This is all on the GM and ownership.

[Chimpton]

4 hours ago, bighurt4life said:

Gonna have to disagree on this, Hahn has a history of giving just as good as he gets when making trades. I’ll point to the trades that started this rebuild. 

C. Sale to the R Sox, we got Moncada and Kopech back. Pretty good (not great) return instead of watching sale waste his best years on a losing team. Sale has given them 20 WAR and we’ve gotten 14 from yoan, kopech, only 3 from Kopech. 
Grade- B

Adam Eaton to Nationals for Giolito, Lopez, and Dunning (traded for Lance Lynn)  Nationals got 5 WAR from Eaton, we have gotten a total of nearly 30 WAR from our return.

Grade- A+

Quintana to the Cubs for Eloy and Cease. Q gave the Cubs like 6 or 7 war. We all know how good Cease has become and if Eloy could stay healthy he’s an all star caliber player.  We have about 15 WAR between the two so far. 

Grade-A
 

I agree that it’s time for Hahn to go, BUT let’s keep things in perspective, he is not the worst GM in the game. To say so is just hyperbole. 

Hahn may have made all these 'Grade A' and 'B' trades but the idea was to create a team that would be challenging for multiple post season success, not a team that has appeared twice and been knocked out in the first round both times and is now a busted flush.

Equally, the Red Sox didn't do too badly out of the Sale trade as they did win a World Series!

[The Mighty Mite]

1 hour ago, joejoesox said:

Remember when they were 7-21? 14 games under .500, 9 games back 

They've gone 5-2 since and are (12-23) still 11 games under .500 (7 games back)

Unless they start getting 3 game sweeps, these "series wins" ain't gonna do s%*# to their place in the standings, they're just too far buried, and they don't have the talent to compete with good teams

We’d be on a nice roll with a 7 game winning streak if not for winnable games that we lost against the Reds on Saturday and especially the Twins last Thursday.

Edited May 8, 2023 by The Mighty Mite

[The Mighty Mite]

2 hours ago, joejoesox said:

Remember when they were 7-21? 14 games under .500, 9 games back 

They've gone 5-2 since and are (12-23) still 11 games under .500 (7 games back)

Unless they start getting 3 game sweeps, these "series wins" ain't gonna do s%*# to their place in the standings, they're just too far buried, and they don't have the talent to compete with good teams

It’s doable, a lot of us remember the 1983 Sox who were 8 games under .500 at 16-24 in late May but after that they were just about unbeatable finishing at 99-63. The current team has the talent but I’m not sure if they are as good as the 83 team, best stretch of baseball I’ve ever seen the Sox play, first thing is they have to get everyone healthy and stay healthy and then to start to believe in themselves and play as a team, this little stretch they are on now gives us hope.