Opening up my mind to giving the season a clean slate

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Not if you do it right.
And the big problem with White Flag was its poor execution.

Actually, Howry and Foulke were solid contributors...Foulke led to Cotts.  Also turned Howry into Frank Francisco, but that didn't work out as well unless you count FF's time in TX throwing chairs. 

They did succeed in dumping a bunch of salary with White Flag that later was spent from 2003-2005. 

(The biggest problem was Caruso and Barcelo never amounting to much.) 

[GreenSox]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

Actually, Howry and Foulke were solid contributors...Foulke led to Cotts.  Also turned Howry into Frank Francisco, but that didn't work out as well unless you count FF's time in TX throwing chairs. 

They did succeed in dumping a bunch of salary with White Flag that later was spent from 2003-2005. 

(The biggest problem was Caruso and Barcelo never amounting to much.) 

A couple of relievers isn't much of a return.
On the other hand Heathcliff Slocumb yielded Lowe and Veritek.  But Schueler wouldn't trade with the AL.

[flavum]

What full strength would look like:

Anderson, Benintendi, Robert, Jimenez, Moncada, Vaughn, Grandal, Burger, Andrus

Zavala, Sheets, Alberto, Marisnick

Giolito, Cease, Clevinger, Lynn, Kopech

Lopez, Santos, Middleton, Crochet, Bummer, Graveman, Kelly, Hendriks

I’m a sucker. Let’s get healthy. 

[FloydBannister1983]

10 minutes ago, flavum said:

What full strength would look like:

Anderson, Benintendi, Robert, Jimenez, Moncada, Vaughn, Grandal, Burger, Andrus

Zavala, Sheets, Alberto, Marisnick

Giolito, Cease, Clevinger, Lynn, Kopech

Lopez, Santos, Middleton, Crochet, Bummer, Graveman, Kelly, Hendriks

I’m a sucker. Let’s get healthy. 

I think there’s no pitching there except for Hendricks if he’s the same.

 

This starting staff is putrid outside of Giolito.

[flavum]

4 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

I think there’s no pitching there except for Hendricks if he’s the same.

 

This starting staff is putrid outside of Giolito.

Maybe, but if they ever get to this 26-man roster, I’d at least be able to hit a reset button on optimism. Some of the pitching is getting better, Cease should be able to get back, and the bullpen roles would be better defined with Hendriks closing.

[The Beast]

4 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Anderson traded, Giolito traded, other short term deals traded.

It’s possible. But do we know that it will happen yet? No.

2 hours ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

So they won’t be sellers at the trade deadline?

It’s possible that they won’t and it’s possible they will. I’d rather let the season play out before they start trading away people and come back with suspects.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Actually, Howry and Foulke were solid contributors...Foulke led to Cotts.  Also turned Howry into Frank Francisco, but that didn't work out as well unless you count FF's time in TX throwing chairs. 

They did succeed in dumping a bunch of salary with White Flag that later was spent from 2003-2005. 

(The biggest problem was Caruso and Barcelo never amounting to much.) 

I did a detailed story on the 25th anniversary of the White Flag Trade. The impact both locally and nationally was catastrophic to the Sox and it reflected in attendance for a few years afterwards including 2000. 

As far as the impact the players acquired made, here you go:

There’s a Hole in the Toe of My White Sox.

The “White Flag Trade” Revisited…25 Years…and Counting  

 

Mike Caruso: Had a brilliant 1998 finishing third in the Rookie of the Year voting. He hit .306 with 22 stolen bases and 55 RBI’s. He legged out numerous infield hits. Defensively he made 35 errors which led the league and raised some questions about his ability to do small things correctly on the field.

1999 was a mixed year. Caruso’s batting average dropped to .250 but he recorded 35 infield hits and was the hardest player to strike out in the league. His errors dropped to 24 and he hit a game winning two run home run to beat the Cubs on June 13 but his attitude was becoming an issue. Manager Jerry Manuel felt he was out of shape and even questioned his thinking ability in the field.

By 2000 Caruso was out of the starting line up in favor of Jose Valentin. The Sox tried trading him to Seattle, a deal which was overturned because Caruso was injured at the time, before releasing him.

Lorenzo Barcelo: Suffered extensive injuries to his pitching arm which caused him to miss most of both the 1998 and 1999 minor league seasons. He was called up to the Sox in July 2000, going 4-2 with a 3.69 ERA in 22 games.

In 2001 Barcelo tore his rotator cuff and again missed most of the season. He started 2002 with the Sox but was soon sent back to triple A where he suffered yet another arm injury which finished his career. 

Bob Howry: In 1998 Howry led all A.L. rookies with nine saves along with a 3.15 ERA in 44 games. In 1999 he appeared in 69 games saving 28, winning five and posting a 3.59 ERA. 2000 saw his role change to a set up man and he was effective again with seven saves, two wins and a 3.17 ERA. 2001 though saw a drop in velocity and his ERA shot up to 4.69. In 2002 he was hammered in spring training and was traded to Boston at the deadline. He pitched for another nine years with four other teams. As the years went by Howry was often a vocal critic of the Sox organization and their fan base.

Keith Foulke: Foulke turned out to be the savior of the deal after the collapse of Caruso and the injuries to Barcelo. He had 34 saves in 2000 and 42 in 2001. He possessed a change up that was almost unhittable when he was going well.

In 2002 however, manager Jerry Manuel seemed to lose faith in him after a series of blown save chances and because he would become a free agent after the 2003 season G.M. Kenny Williams traded him to Oakland in the ill fated Billy Koch deal. Foulke immediately regained his old form leading the A.L. with 43 saves and a 2.03 ERA. Signed by the Red Sox as a free agent he led them to a World Series title in 2004.

Ken Vining got into eight games for the Sox in 2001 pitching a little over six innings with an ERA of almost 18 while Brian Manning never appeared in the Major Leagues.

Overall the players the Sox got back had some impact particularly in the 2000 season when they won the Central Division but none of them reached the ceiling that Reinsdorf talked about, at least not when they were in the organization.

For various reasons, injuries, bad luck, bad attitudes, none of the players acquired in the deal ever even made the All-Star team while in a Sox uniform.

[ThirdGen]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Actually, Howry and Foulke were solid contributors...Foulke led to Cotts.  Also turned Howry into Frank Francisco, but that didn't work out as well unless you count FF's time in TX throwing chairs. 

They did succeed in dumping a bunch of salary with White Flag that later was spent from 2003-2005. 

(The biggest problem was Caruso and Barcelo never amounting to much.) 

The alternative to the trade wasn't great anyway- Alvarez and Hernandez were rumored to have no interest in re-signing with the Sox and were rumored to be headed to TB (which is what happened).  And Darwin was at the end of his career.

None of them help SF much in that Alvarez and Hernandez were bad in the NLDS and left for TB after, and I don't think Darwin even made the postseason roster.

Only Hernandez had a good career after 1997.

And to the point of the Sox giving up, the team was slightly below .500 when the trade was made.  And was actually slightly below .500 for the prior 162 games.  They were basically the 2022 White Sox.  A lot of it was media blow up about a team that those who actually watched play weren't particularly excited about.  And Cleveland was a damn good team in that era.  JR shouldn't have said out loud that the Sox couldn't catch Cleveland but prior to the trade I don't think many Sox fans thought it was possible.

[T R U]

It would be totally detrimental for this organization to eat this loser year and not sell off pieces.

You can't come back next season with the same team minus a few expiring contracts/options declined. The writing is on the wall.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

I think there’s no pitching there except for Hendricks if he’s the same.

 

This starting staff is putrid outside of Giolito.

Kyle???  Liam Hendriks must be the most frequently misspelled name on the team, haha. 

Like Luis Robert(s). 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, ThirdGen said:

The alternative to the trade wasn't great anyway- Alvarez and Hernandez were rumored to have no interest in re-signing with the Sox and were rumored to be headed to TB (which is what happened).  And Darwin was at the end of his career.

None of them help SF much in that Alvarez and Hernandez were bad in the NLDS and left for TB after, and I don't think Darwin even made the postseason roster.

Only Hernandez had a good career after 1997.

And to the point of the Sox giving up, the team was slightly below .500 when the trade was made.  And was actually slightly below .500 for the prior 162 games.  They were basically the 2022 White Sox.  A lot of it was media blow up about a team that those who actually watched play weren't particularly excited about.  And Cleveland was a damn good team in that era.  JR shouldn't have said out loud that the Sox couldn't catch Cleveland but prior to the trade I don't think many Sox fans thought it was possible.

Not unlike 2012... just trailing CLE rather than ahead of Detroit for almost the entire summer. 

 

 

[chitownsportsfan]

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, ThirdGen said:

The alternative to the trade wasn't great anyway- Alvarez and Hernandez were rumored to have no interest in re-signing with the Sox and were rumored to be headed to TB (which is what happened).  And Darwin was at the end of his career.

None of them help SF much in that Alvarez and Hernandez were bad in the NLDS and left for TB after, and I don't think Darwin even made the postseason roster.

Only Hernandez had a good career after 1997.

And to the point of the Sox giving up, the team was slightly below .500 when the trade was made.  And was actually slightly below .500 for the prior 162 games.  They were basically the 2022 White Sox.  A lot of it was media blow up about a team that those who actually watched play weren't particularly excited about.  And Cleveland was a damn good team in that era.  JR shouldn't have said out loud that the Sox couldn't catch Cleveland but prior to the trade I don't think many Sox fans thought it was possible.

From my story:

Looking at the Giants; while they didn’t re-sign Alvarez or Hernandez and Darwin retired they did get additional draft picks when the first two signed with Tampa Bay. More importantly though the organization showed their players, and their fans they were serious about contending and winning regardless of risk. It made San Francisco look like an up and coming organization… that according to Jeff Kent.

San Francisco did make the playoffs in 1997 losing to the eventual World Series champion Marlins, they just missed the post season in 1998 losing to the Cubs in a one game playoff, made the playoffs again in 1999 losing to the Mets then made it to the World Series in 2002 losing in seven games to the Angels. Then of course they went on their historic run in the 2010’s winning the World Series three times.

Also having to be factored in was the positive publicity the trade generated in 1997 and the subsequent success of the franchise finally got the city and the state to give the go ahead on a new stadium to replace Candlestick Park. Then owner Peter McGowan pledged his own money to help get the stadium built and it became one of the showcase stadiums in the big leagues. This after years of failed attempts by multiple Giants owners to get a new stadium built.

[Balta1701]

8 hours ago, flavum said:

What full strength would look like:

Anderson, Benintendi, Robert, Jimenez, Moncada, Vaughn, Grandal, Burger, Andrus

Zavala, Sheets, Alberto, Marisnick

Giolito, Cease, Clevinger, Lynn, Kopech

Lopez, Santos, Middleton, Crochet, Bummer, Graveman, Kelly, Hendriks

I’m a sucker. Let’s get healthy. 

Injuries are up 20% league wide, the White Sox have been healthier than average, and people still insist that the day when they are the healthiest team in baseball is right around the corner. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Injuries are up 20% league wide, the White Sox have been healthier than average, and people still insist that the day when they are the healthiest team in baseball is right around the corner. 

Extraordinarily fortunate with starting pitchers.  Perhaps Katz should receive some credit for that at least?