Why did the downfall happen and could it have been avoided?

[FloydBannister1983]

7 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Just a couple years ago the rebuild looked really great and the sox had a top farm System and later a good young core. They also had really solid seasons in 2020 and 2021 but after that it went downhill.

But what happened and could it have been avoided?

 

-signing TLR certainly wasn't a good decision even though he won over 90 his first year he seemed mentally/health wise not able to do the job anymore

1) not getting enough depth from the farm System after the "core" graduated certainly was an issue, the sox had a good core but still a depth problem, especially when injuries happened. This probably can be blamed on the front office as player dev, drafting and non Cuban international signings were just bad.

 

Blame on front office: 9/10

2) a lot of core players got injured. I think this one can't be blamed on decisions of the club, Anderson, Robert, moncada, Eloy and giolito are all under 30. Sure now it is apparent they seem to be injury prone but at the time that couldn't have been foreseen and trading them after injury would have meant selling them low for 50 cent on the dollar.  Sure grandal and Lynn are older but overall I would say it was mostly bad luck.

 

Blame on front office: 2/10

 

3) signing bad free agents

Some free agent signings actually did work well. I think overall Lynn was a success, even though he might be done now he was excellent his first year and ok his second year. Hendricks also I think was a great get, even if he can't rebound from cancer at 100% that was not foreseeable.

Past that it doesn't look good, grandal, bennitendi,encarnacion, pollock, the list of failures is long.

However you have to consider that the checkbook of Jerry did limit the front office in the quality of free agents they could target but still even considering they had to take older and slightly washed guys some of the results have been extremely bad.

Blame on front office: 6/10

It is simple.  It happened because they let the kid that drove the car into the ditch drive the tow truck as well.

It was an inevitable failure from that point on.  There were people here, especially a moderator who has been strangely silent for month, that attacked me, and plenty of others, for not believing in Hahnsight.

 

It could have been avoided.  They could have just looked up north and said: 1) new front office, 2) serious manager, 3) serious farm system.

 

Instead they kept the clown show front office, killing the rebuild in the womb.  They proceeded to hire the trash thrown out on the North Side, a senile old drunk, and this doofus from Kansas City whose own team had no interest in him.

 

If I sound bitter I am because there were a lot of smarmy smartest guy in the room types around here (and especially at WSI) that attacked anybody waving warning flags.

 

Now they don’t want to sleep in the bed they crapped all over.

[Tnetennba]

That top farm system was completely top heavy, and they failed spectacularly building any depth or that mythical pipeline of young talent to supplement the core.  They sold nearly everything for prospects and called it good enough.  What they called a rebuild was the same half-assed effort we’ve known since forever. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Tnetennba

[FloydBannister1983]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Yes...it's been frustrating...but still a top 11 payroll and $190 mill spent...and like I said...all of the top 4 payrolls in MLB are at or further behind their division leads than the Sox.    

I think the idea that the Sox aren't trying or are stupid is one view, the other is they accumulated a lot of talent and then they've just run into incredibly bad injury luck the last 18 months...Seem to remember they had a 10 year run of good injury luck. Sometimes life is random.   The idea of burning it all down seems so pessimistic.  As for the home runs...seems like Comiskey park used to be one of the most cavernous parks in baseball.  

But as has been pointed out too many times to count the talking point that they are hurt by injuries is a myth.  Statistically they remain one of the healthiest teams.  They haven’t lost a starting pitcher until the pile of garbage Clevinger went down.  Other teams are on their tenth starters.

[Dam8610]

Jerry is cheap, at least by standards of an MLB owner. We all know this. What I don't understand is this: if he's going to be cheap on spending for talent (which he clearly is seeing as the White Sox are one of a handful of franchises that have no 9 figure contracts in the history of their organization), why not go all out and build a world class scouting and talent development organization? The annual cost of doing this would be less than 20% of an average MLB payroll, and the massive amount of dividends it would pay would be well worth the expense. Even from a purely business perspective, it would massively increase the team's profits by allowing them to consistently put a competitive product on the field without having to compete for the top spot in payroll. And if he's not interested in doing that, he should sell the team to someone who actually cares about fielding a winning product.

[baseball_gal_aly]

1 hour ago, Dam8610 said:

Jerry is cheap, at least by standards of an MLB owner. We all know this. What I don't understand is this: if he's going to be cheap on spending for talent (which he clearly is seeing as the White Sox are one of a handful of franchises that have no 9 figure contracts in the history of their organization), why not go all out and build a world class scouting and talent development organization? The annual cost of doing this would be less than 20% of an average MLB payroll, and the massive amount of dividends it would pay would be well worth the expense. Even from a purely business perspective, it would massively increase the team's profits by allowing them to consistently put a competitive product on the field without having to compete for the top spot in payroll. And if he's not interested in doing that, he should sell the team to someone who actually cares about fielding a winning product.

Jerry doesn't believe in paying unproven talent and he doesn't believe in paying free agents either. He only believes in re-signing his own players to below market value contracts. 

Sucks to be a Sox fan. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by baseballgalaly

[hankchifan]

10 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Just a couple years ago the rebuild looked really great and the sox had a top farm System and later a good young core. They also had really solid seasons in 2020 and 2021 but after that it went downhill.

But what happened and could it have been avoided?

 

-signing TLR certainly wasn't a good decision even though he won over 90 his first year he seemed mentally/health wise not able to do the job anymore

1) not getting enough depth from the farm System after the "core" graduated certainly was an issue, the sox had a good core but still a depth problem, especially when injuries happened. This probably can be blamed on the front office as player dev, drafting and non Cuban international signings were just bad.

 

Blame on front office: 9/10

2) a lot of core players got injured. I think this one can't be blamed on decisions of the club, Anderson, Robert, moncada, Eloy and giolito are all under 30. Sure now it is apparent they seem to be injury prone but at the time that couldn't have been foreseen and trading them after injury would have meant selling them low for 50 cent on the dollar.  Sure grandal and Lynn are older but overall I would say it was mostly bad luck.

 

Blame on front office: 2/10

 

3) signing bad free agents

Some free agent signings actually did work well. I think overall Lynn was a success, even though he might be done now he was excellent his first year and ok his second year. Hendricks also I think was a great get, even if he can't rebound from cancer at 100% that was not foreseeable.

Past that it doesn't look good, grandal, bennitendi,encarnacion, pollock, the list of failures is long.

However you have to consider that the checkbook of Jerry did limit the front office in the quality of free agents they could target but still even considering they had to take older and slightly washed guys some of the results have been extremely bad.

Blame on front office: 6/10

Trade for The unnecessary Kimbrel was bad.  Should have spent on more urgenty needed lefty outfielder instead.  Madrigal would have been a more serviceable second baseman than what we have now..  Hiring TLR was also a bad move that set us back as well.

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, Dam8610 said:

Jerry is cheap, at least by standards of an MLB owner. We all know this. What I don't understand is this: if he's going to be cheap on spending for talent (which he clearly is seeing as the White Sox are one of a handful of franchises that have no 9 figure contracts in the history of their organization), why not go all out and build a world class scouting and talent development organization? The annual cost of doing this would be less than 20% of an average MLB payroll, and the massive amount of dividends it would pay would be well worth the expense. Even from a purely business perspective, it would massively increase the team's profits by allowing them to consistently put a competitive product on the field without having to compete for the top spot in payroll. And if he's not interested in doing that, he should sell the team to someone who actually cares about fielding a winning product.

Back when Jerry actually spoke with the media both he and Einhorn both said they don't believe in paying for possible "potential."

[The Kids Can Play]

6 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Soxtalk is reaching maximum crazy.   Two playoff seasons followed by a devastating injury year that  still ended up .500 and now a slow start which was a combination of new manager, key injuries and the hardest schedule in baseball the first 40 games....and we are writing the obituary??     If we had only spent money like top four spenders, the Mets (.500 and 4.5 games out), Yankees (3rd place 5 games out),  Padres (under .500 and 8 games back) or Phillies (under .500 and 7 games back)?   Where did it all go wrong as we stand hopelessly...checking...checking...5.5 games out of first after 50 games....with the easiest schedule the rest of the way?   Do we put the 25 year old Andrew Vaughn in the same dumpster as the 26 year old, often appendix victim, Jiminez?   Jake Burgers feel good story is now over because he's had a couple of bad games?   Tim Anderson's 3000 career .750 OPS is an illusion and his last 85 post injury OPS of .471 is the new normal.  Colas and Sosa are now AAAA players because of 80 bad, cold weather, at bats against the five best teams in baseball?   Kopech has no future.  Lynn is toast.  Cease was a fluke.  We have no relief pitchers.  Yet we are less than 14 months removed from many BB writers in the country saying we had the second best MLB talent...and yes since then the luck has all been bad.   But baseball is a marathon and luck changes.  We still have starters, relievers and 7 position players that at their best in the last three years have been all star levels.   This year the Sox are like a Porsche with a flat tire...it looks great in the driveway but on the road its ugly to watch.  But the tires getting fixed.   The weathers warming up.  Jiminez is coming back, Crochet is back, the four top starters all looked great and went 4-0 in their last four starts. Robert is turning into the superstar we thought.  Anderson will burn up the league in June.  Vaughn is so close.  Burger will continue to be a nice surprise.  The bullpen is rounding into shape and It would not be crazy at all to see the sox go 40-20 the next 60 and be 5 games up at the 110 game mark.  Then Liam regains his form and becomes the rallying cry for the team...Colas and Sosa unleash their talent.    The first six weeks of the season was gut wrenching for all of us...but this happens in baseball.  Let's let it play out into the summer.   I think this is going to become a really fun team.  

I do appreciate your positive optimism and rally cry. I'm thankful you informed us nothing is wrong and all are panicking is too much and way overboard. As you summed it up, it looks like the Sox are making the playoffs, which will be easy sailing by going 40-20 in the next 60 games. 

Here is what you are missing:

1. Yes we are only 5.5 games out of first place. However in the last 15 games we have played 12 of them against teams under 500. We play in the worst division in baseball and still 9 games under.

2. Your assumption that Tim Anderson will get back to his lofty numbers from a few years ago is ridiculous optimism. It's not just because TA's stat line is the worst ever, he has no power with zero HR's and hits mostly groundballs, weak flyouts and more strikeouts. He has some serious mental issues and his arrogant attitude...that he is still the best player on the field, is now beyond annoying. He was quoted the other day saying, he understand why no pitcher would ever want to throw him a fastball. That is comical! Two games ago TA struck out with two men on with no outs in the top of the 7th when we just went ahead 4-2. Tim's last two swings and misses were basic 94 mph fastballs in the zone. He not only can't hit off speed pitches, which was always his weakness, but now he can't catch up to the fastballs, even though he told us he will kill FB's when he eventually sees them again. Hence why he has a stat line of: BA.244. OBP.284, SLG .282, OPS .565, WAR -0.5.

3. Your analogy of the Sox being a Porsche with a flat tire is wildly exaggerated and hilarious. Even if when we get Eloy back in this lineup, we are still flawed in plate discipline, situational hitting and hitting with RISP. Even with Hendricks coming back and Crochet now back, it will take time for those two to be major contributors. Crochet because he is coming off TJS and Hendricks coming off fighting and beating cancer, while having his strength zapped from such intense chemotherapy and radiation treatments. Yes the starters look good lately and the bullpen is looking better, but if we get any more injuries like Clevinger, we are dead on arrival.

4. You stated the Burger "feel good" story is now over because he had a couple of bad games. I don't recall reading any poster on SoxTalk saying the Burger's run was over. Yes we all mentioned he had a couple of bad games going 0-15 in the last 4 games. However I do believe imo, a large majority of posters here still believe in Jake and want him in the future lineup daily once Eloy comes back. 

5. Even if this team has this amazing turnaround and wins the worst division in baseball as you are predicting, do you really think they have any chance to go deep in the playoffs?

6. Finally, most of the people here that you are are complaining about that have reached "Maximum Crazy" is again exaggerated. The posters here are die-hard Sox fans just like you. However these Sox fans are also stating the obvious facts of the 2016 rebuild debacle. We still remember vividly the promises of multiple championships and the arrogant comments about, "I'll see you at the parade." Not only has the rebuild been a failure, the biggest crime is the way Hahn and the FO mishandled and destroyed the farm system for now and into the future. The Sox farm system was ranked 29th in 2022 and now 26th this season. The most important prospects in any farm system are the pitchers and the ability to keep developing productive pitchers. This is the glaring failure for the Sox. Even if we win the weakest division in baseball this year, we are screwed for the next several years with the farm system. Case in point: In AAA, the Charlotte Knights pitching staff in the 20 team Intl league is dead last with a team ERA of 5.97. If that wasn't enough going wrong, the AA Birmingham Barons are also dead last in the Southern league in team ERA at 5.49.

I ask you seriously, based on this flawed roster, an injury prone team, terrible situational hitting team with RISP and one of the worst farm systems in baseball, not to mention the worst Owner and GM combo in the league....how could you ever compare this team to a Porsche, even with a flat tire?

I am not being negative. I want this team to win as bad as anyone here. However I won't be burned again and set my expectations so damn high and then get let down again. I did buy into the multiple championships. Going forward it's better I go forward with concerns and reservations and not get too excited. If they prove me wrong, then god bless them and we'll call that a major "blessing in disguise." 

[michelangelosmonkey]

4 hours ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

But as has been pointed out too many times to count the talking point that they are hurt by injuries is a myth.  Statistically they remain one of the healthiest teams.  They haven’t lost a starting pitcher until the pile of garbage Clevinger went down.  Other teams are on their tenth starters.

So if the Angels have everyone healthy all year long and they only loose Ohtani and Trout for the season they are historically healthy?  I don't care what sort of nonsense "proof" you have or how healthy the backups are...the Sox have had terrible injury luck.  Yes the starting pitchers have been luckier and still if you assume a full season is 32 starts the core 4 lost 20 starts last year.   That is losing one of your best pitchers for 2/3rds of the year.  Grandal, TA, Jimenez, Robert and Moncada, the very core of your team, lost 340 games.   That is equal to losing two star players for the full season.  If you want to run out stats that say how historically healthy AJ Pollock was, or how Adam Engel and Josh Harrison were there to answer the call everyday.  You have your truth, I have mine.  Just don't pretend that your truth is somehow science.       

[tray]

8 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Soxtalk is reaching maximum crazy.   Two playoff seasons followed by a devastating injury year that  still ended up .500 and now a slow start which was a combination of new manager, key injuries and the hardest schedule in baseball the first 40 games....and we are writing the obituary??     If we had only spent money like top four spenders, the Mets (.500 and 4.5 games out), Yankees (3rd place 5 games out),  Padres (under .500 and 8 games back) or Phillies (under .500 and 7 games back)?   Where did it all go wrong as we stand hopelessly...checking...checking...5.5 games out of first after 50 games....with the easiest schedule the rest of the way?   Do we put the 25 year old Andrew Vaughn in the same dumpster as the 26 year old, often appendix victim, Jiminez?   Jake Burgers feel good story is now over because he's had a couple of bad games?   Tim Anderson's 3000 career .750 OPS is an illusion and his last 85 post injury OPS of .471 is the new normal.  Colas and Sosa are now AAAA players because of 80 bad, cold weather, at bats against the five best teams in baseball?   Kopech has no future.  Lynn is toast.  Cease was a fluke.  We have no relief pitchers.  Yet we are less than 14 months removed from many BB writers in the country saying we had the second best MLB talent...and yes since then the luck has all been bad.   But baseball is a marathon and luck changes.  We still have starters, relievers and 7 position players that at their best in the last three years have been all star levels.   This year the Sox are like a Porsche with a flat tire...it looks great in the driveway but on the road its ugly to watch.  But the tires getting fixed.   The weathers warming up.  Jiminez is coming back, Crochet is back, the four top starters all looked great and went 4-0 in their last four starts. Robert is turning into the superstar we thought.  Anderson will burn up the league in June.  Vaughn is so close.  Burger will continue to be a nice surprise.  The bullpen is rounding into shape and It would not be crazy at all to see the sox go 40-20 the next 60 and be 5 games up at the 110 game mark.  Then Liam regains his form and becomes the rallying cry for the team...Colas and Sosa unleash their talent.    The first six weeks of the season was gut wrenching for all of us...but this happens in baseball.  Let's let it play out into the summer.   I think this is going to become a really fun team.  

ALL of that is true...All of it including the intended sarcasm. I will go further because some the criticism of "JR" as being "cheap" and that directed at certain black and Hispanic players as lacking motivation, etc. ,,while perhaps not intended as bigotry, undoubtedly appeal to those who hold those views.  Moreover, repeated grinding of old decades long grudges against the owner, what he said 30-40 years ago,  comparing Cub to Sox attendance, suggesting that the franchise be sold or moved, and otherwise trying to deflate any hope by fans for the current season seem like they are primarily intended to damage the team. This is not constructive criticism. It's bulshit and maybe something worse than that.

There are 30 teams in major league baseball and only one will win it all. Many teams who have owners that spend freely do not win their division let alone a WS. There is a lot of luck in sports and in the ownership and management of teams. Sox barely missed out on Rutschman and OK, they  made some bad decisions in the Draft and on trades, but that doesn't mean JR is cheap or that you are smarter than Sox management. You just have an outsized bull horn here, and some of you blow it all too often. Let the season unfold, harness your bitterness, and allow the rest of us to enjoy Sox baseball.

Edited May 24, 2023 by tray

[FloydBannister1983]

45 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

So if the Angels have everyone healthy all year long and they only loose Ohtani and Trout for the season they are historically healthy?  I don't care what sort of nonsense "proof" you have or how healthy the backups are...the Sox have had terrible injury luck.  Yes the starting pitchers have been luckier and still if you assume a full season is 32 starts the core 4 lost 20 starts last year.   That is losing one of your best pitchers for 2/3rds of the year.  Grandal, TA, Jimenez, Robert and Moncada, the very core of your team, lost 340 games.   That is equal to losing two star players for the full season.  If you want to run out stats that say how historically healthy AJ Pollock was, or how Adam Engel and Josh Harrison were there to answer the call everyday.  You have your truth, I have mine.  Just don't pretend that your truth is somehow science.       

So you’re saying that Moncada and Jimenez are the equivalent of Trout and Ohtani?

Seems to be a massive leap.

Also the guys lost aren’t even all stars.  Except for Anderson.  I think the lost value is in wishful thinking and not in actual production on the field.

[michelangelosmonkey]

8 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I do appreciate your positive optimism and rally cry. (OK...nice start...polite, accepting of a counter position)  I'm thankful you informed us nothing is wrong and all are panicking is too much and way overboard. As you summed it up, it looks like the Sox are making the playoffs, which will be easy sailing by going 40-20 in the next 60 games. (And here we go.  I forgot for a second it was Soxtalk) 

Here is what you are missing:

1. Yes we are only 5.5 games out of first place. However in the last 15 games we have played 12 of them against teams under 500. We play in the worst division in baseball and still 9 games under. This is quintessential ST. Ignoring we had the hardest schedule in baseball the first forty games, with a new manager, our closer suddenly out with cancer and key injuries to our SS/3B which might explain the horrid start (I fully acknowledge it was horrid ) and pointing out that we only win easy games.   And 8-3 in our last 11 is meaningless because those games don't count?  

2. Your assumption that Tim Anderson will get back to his lofty numbers from a few years ago is ridiculous optimism. It's not just because TA's stat line is the worst ever, he has no power with zero HR's and hits mostly groundballs, weak flyouts and more strikeouts. He has some serious mental issues and his arrogant attitude...that he is still the best player on the field, is now beyond annoying. He was quoted the other day saying, he understand why no pitcher would ever want to throw him a fastball. That is comical! Two games ago TA struck out with two men on with no outs in the top of the 7th when we just went ahead 4-2. Tim's last two swings and misses were basic 94 mph fastballs in the zone. He not only can't hit off speed pitches, which was always his weakness, but now he can't catch up to the fastballs, even though he told us he will kill FB's when he eventually sees them again. Hence why he has a stat line of: BA.244. OBP.284, SLG .282, OPS .565, WAR -0.5.

Tim Anderson had a 4.7 WAR two years ago and LAST year in his first 200 at bats had a .900 OPS and then HE GOT HURT.   This year in April he put up his career average .750 OPS and had five doubles in 10 games and HE GOT HURT.   So sure, take the 85 at bats coming back from injury as opposed to his career 3000 and use that one at bat you watched to determine he's done.     

3. Your analogy of the Sox being a Porsche with a flat tire is wildly exaggerated and hilarious. Even if when we get Eloy back in this lineup, we are still flawed in plate discipline, situational hitting and hitting with RISP. Even with Hendricks coming back and Crochet now back, it will take time for those two to be major contributors. Crochet because he is coming off TJS and Hendricks coming off fighting and beating cancer, while having his strength zapped from such intense chemotherapy and radiation treatments. Yes the starters look good lately and the bullpen is looking better, but if we get any more injuries like Clevinger, we are dead on arrival.

Again...14 months back Vegas and many of the best baseball writers had us amongst the most talented teams in baseball and then everyone got hurt.  And you want to mock ME??   You do realize that if, by the END OF THE YEAR, Hendricks and Crochet get back to near peak, and add them to how great Kelly and Graveman and Santos and Middleton have been...that our bullpen could be deadly in a short series?  

4. You stated the Burger "feel good" story is now over because he had a couple of bad games. I don't recall reading any poster on SoxTalk saying the Burger's run was over. Yes we all mentioned he had a couple of bad games going 0-15 in the last 4 games. However I do believe imo, a large majority of posters here still believe in Jake and want him in the future lineup daily once Eloy comes back. 

You must not read the game threads. 

5. Even if this team has this amazing turnaround and wins the worst division in baseball as you are predicting, do you really think they have any chance to go deep in the playoffs?

I'm sorry...I didn't realize you were new to baseball.  

6. Finally, most of the people here that you are are complaining about that have reached "Maximum Crazy" is again exaggerated. The posters here are die-hard Sox fans just like you.      No there used to be some positive guys on Soxtalk.  Positive comments are not treated well here.      

However these Sox fans are also stating the obvious facts of the 2016 rebuild debacle. 

I'm not sure you know what "debacle" means.   They went to the playoffs two years in a row and in a year with crazy injury luck they still finished .500...and their core players are still not even in their peak years.  The payroll is manageable...they have no terrible long term contracts...and they are only 5.5 games out with 100 to play.

We still remember vividly the promises of multiple championships and the arrogant comments about, "I'll see you at the parade." Not only has the rebuild been a failure, the biggest crime is the way Hahn and the FO mishandled and destroyed the farm system for now and into the future.

Maybe you haven't been following but Kannapolis and Winston Salem are the most fun follows in years.  Colas and Sosa are burning it up in AAA and four of their top prospects--Colson, Ramos, Popeye and Schultz have been hurt for the last month  

The Sox farm system was ranked 29th in 2022 and now 26th this season. The most important prospects in any farm system are the pitchers and the ability to keep developing productive pitchers. This is the glaring failure for the Sox. Even if we win the weakest division in baseball this year, we are screwed for the next several years with the farm system. Case in point: In AAA, the Charlotte Knights pitching staff in the 20 team Intl league is dead last with a team ERA of 5.97. If that wasn't enough going wrong, the AA Birmingham Barons are also dead last in the Southern league in team ERA at 5.49.  

I ask you seriously, based on this flawed roster, an injury prone team, terrible situational hitting team with RISP and one of the worst farm systems in baseball, not to mention the worst Owner and GM combo in the league....how could you ever compare this team to a Porsche, even with a flat tire?

I am not being negative. (Worst gm, worst owner, seriously flawed roster, debacle of a rebuild, worst farm system, illusionary win streak but never negative)  I want this team to win as bad as anyone here. However I won't be burned again and set my expectations so damn high and then get let down again. I did buy into the multiple championships. Going forward it's better I go forward with concerns and reservations and not get too excited. If they prove me wrong, then god bless them and we'll call that a major "blessing in disguise." 

 

[michelangelosmonkey]

16 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

So you’re saying that Moncada and Jimenez are the equivalent of Trout and Ohtani?

Seems to be a massive leap.

Also the guys lost aren’t even all stars.  Except for Anderson.  I think the lost value is in wishful thinking and not in actual production on the field.

Sorry you missed my point.  The poster had said that the White Sox injury narrative was "proven" to be untrue.  The proof generally runs something like "average games lost by starter per team" and there is some nonsense that the White Sox have been healthy.   Using the same "analysis" having Angels 100% healthy outside of losing Trout and Ohtani would still leave them statistically as an above average healthy team.  It MATTERS who you lose and when.   The White Sox had a core of young players--Moncada, Robert, Jimenez, Vaughn that you needed to learn to play together every day and I think there's been about five games in two years that all four have been out there.  Add to that two of your established stars...TA and Grandal have missed more than half the games in the last year.   Its hard to get rhythm when everyone is always hurt...and there is a psychological element to teams winning.   You think there isn't a darkness that surrounds the team when poor old Eloy has his appendix burst?  First for him but then the "what will happen next" hopelessness.  As for "not even losing all stars".  Robert is 4th in FWar this year...you think having him miss half of last year didn't hurt?  Eloy with 45 homers in his first 700 at bats by age 23 and his injuries haven't hurt?   Moncada and his 5 WAR and 4 WAR seasons surrounded by injured seasons hasn't hurt the White Sox growth?    

[Dick Allen]

38 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Sorry you missed my point.  The poster had said that the White Sox injury narrative was "proven" to be untrue.  The proof generally runs something like "average games lost by starter per team" and there is some nonsense that the White Sox have been healthy.   Using the same "analysis" having Angels 100% healthy outside of losing Trout and Ohtani would still leave them statistically as an above average healthy team.  It MATTERS who you lose and when.   The White Sox had a core of young players--Moncada, Robert, Jimenez, Vaughn that you needed to learn to play together every day and I think there's been about five games in two years that all four have been out there.  Add to that two of your established stars...TA and Grandal have missed more than half the games in the last year.   Its hard to get rhythm when everyone is always hurt...and there is a psychological element to teams winning.   You think there isn't a darkness that surrounds the team when poor old Eloy has his appendix burst?  First for him but then the "what will happen next" hopelessness.  As for "not even losing all stars".  Robert is 4th in FWar this year...you think having him miss half of last year didn't hurt?  Eloy with 45 homers in his first 700 at bats by age 23 and his injuries haven't hurt?   Moncada and his 5 WAR and 4 WAR seasons surrounded by injured seasons hasn't hurt the White Sox growth?    

Counting on the same players who are often injured year after year, for some crazy reason, hasn't quite worked out. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 hours ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

It is simple.  It happened because they let the kid that drove the car into the ditch drive the tow truck as well.

It was an inevitable failure from that point on.  There were people here, especially a moderator who has been strangely silent for month, that attacked me, and plenty of others, for not believing in Hahnsight.

 

It could have been avoided.  They could have just looked up north and said: 1) new front office, 2) serious manager, 3) serious farm system.

 

Instead they kept the clown show front office, killing the rebuild in the womb.  They proceeded to hire the trash thrown out on the North Side, a senile old drunk, and this doofus from Kansas City whose own team had no interest in him.

 

If I sound bitter I am because there were a lot of smarmy smartest guy in the room types around here (and especially at WSI) that attacked anybody waving warning flags.

 

Now they don’t want to sleep in the bed they crapped all over.

I remember when your mystery mod said that the Sox wouldn't even have to supplement the core with veterans or sign free agents because they'd get everything they need from the trades and the draft. I thought that was impossible and said so.

[South Side Hit Men]

@tray has valid points beyond ownership. Jerry told just about everyone in MLB who clever he was targeting second place over 40 years, including those attending the sports ownership seminar he participated in a few weeks ago.

Sure he gave Hahn and Tony a few dimes to play with at the candy store the past two years, but completely nickel and dimed the scouts, analytics, minor league players including unnecessary jab mandates and slumlord living and eating conditions, and the shameful dumping of international slot money to save a couple hundred grand here and there.

Abd of course cancelling the one other best chance at a WS in 1994 to “crush the union”.

[South Side Hit Men]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/white-sox/2023/5/2/23708762/whenever-jerry-reinsdorf-speaks-white-sox-fans-are-going-to-listen

May 1, 2023

Quote

“I think the important thing to fans is, while they want you to win championships, they want to know that when they get down to the last month of the season, you still have a shot,” Reinsdorf said. “You’re still playing meaningful games. If you can do that consistently, you’ll make your fans happy.”

No Jerry, fans aren’t interested in your 10th place NBA play-in birth or 7th place AL Wild Card carrots.

Fans want a team that has a solid roster and coaching staff able to legitimately compete for championships.

You know, like the MJ Bulls teams you and Krause were so eager to tear down to prove that Jerry Reinsdorf organizations, not GOAT players like Michael Jeffery Jordan, who literally laughed and dunked on your ass on Last Dance, win Championships.

[elrockinMT]

10 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

This is precisely why I rarely engage here anymore.   The primary dozen posters on Soxtalk are White Sox haters or trolls.  Anyone that tries to find a fun narrative is hunted by the mob.   I write a commentary about things being darkest before the dawn with a bunch of reasons why things got ridiculously bad (that first forty game schedule was unbelievable especially for a new manager) and why they could turn around and your response back is 1) personal insult, 2) Personal insult, 3) personal insult, 4) made up argument that makes me sound ridiculous though I never said anything like that 5) tired old story about something that happened 30 years ago that could be viewed negatively.   Hey, all of you, enjoy your hatred.  Abandon all hope yea who enter Soxtalk.  

You are correct in my opinion. Optimism is not welcome and being positive borders on a sin. I believe one of the major reasons this team has not been successful the last season or so is INJURIES. I don’t see any reason to tear down this team RF will be filled by Colas. We may needs 2Bman but Lenyn Sosa may take that in a year. Catcher may need to be addressed in 2024 unless the team brings back Yasmani. The Sox would be well advised in bringing back the pitching staff. The Sox have a very good team they just need to stay healthy 

Edited May 25, 2023 by elrockinMT

[Colome's Hat]

Two things can be true: Rick  Hahn fucking sucks at putting together a roster and this team is easily good enough to win a crappy division.  I think we are starting to see things turn around.  They will get a boost with Hendriks being back.  86 wins likely wins the division this year.  They are good enough to do that.

[The Beast]

20 minutes ago, elrockinMT said:

You are correct in my opinion. Optimism is not welcome and being positive borders on a sin. I believe one of the major reasons this team has not been successful the last season or so is INJURIES. I don’t see any reason to tear down this team RF will be filled by Colas. We may needs 2Bman but Lenyn Sosa may take that in a year. Catcher may need to be addressed in 2024 unless the team brings back Yasmani. The Sox would be well advised in bringing back the pitching staff. The Sox have a very good team they just need to stay healthy 

Good take. I also think injuries have hurt this team and that a rebuild isn’t what they need. More talent in the minors? Absolutely, but not at the expense of the major league roster talent.

The question I think ST posters need to ask themselves is, on May 23, or by the end of the month, are you in, or are you out? As in, will they contend for the division and you believe they can do it, or  I want this team to burn, they have no chance and I have no hope.

I’m in the optimistic camp they can do this camp despite all of their faults and flaws. A little optimistic realism never hurt anyone and is a hell of a lot better than the negativity displayed by many on this board.

[caulfield12]

22 minutes ago, elrockinMT said:

You are correct in my opinion. Optimism is not welcome and being positive borders on a sin. I believe one of the major reasons this team has not been successful the last season or so is INJURIES. I don’t see any reason to tear down this team RF will be filled by Colas. We may needs 2Bman but Lenyn Sosa may take that in a year. Catcher may need to be addressed in 2024 unless the team brings back Yasmani. The Sox would be well advised in bringing back the pitching staff. The Sox have a very good team they just need to stay healthy 

You're going to have to rely on Lynn at one year older and a quite exorbitant price tag for a retooling team... and then still backfill with our #6 starter out for the season and probably not ready until midseason 2024.  Well let's just say you don't want to rely on someone who was ranked in the 20s for Sox prospects before last year to save the day. 

So that still means replacing the equivalent of Giolito in the rotation via FA outside the first tier, which actually looks like the second and third tier in past seasons for FA. 

Relying on Clevinger coming back...or replacing him, too, with another $12-13 million deal just to tread water. 

And Lynn's body holding up one more season. 

Then obviously Cease andvKopech have to stay healthy and pitching as projected. 

Lots of big if's. 

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, The Beast said:

Good take. I also think injuries have hurt this team and that a rebuild isn’t what they need. More talent in the minors? Absolutely, but not at the expense of the major league roster talent.

The question I think ST posters need to ask themselves is, on May 23, or by the end of the month, are you in, or are you out? As in, will they contend for the division and you believe they can do it, or  I want this team to burn, they have no chance and I have no hope.

I’m in the optimistic camp they can do this camp despite all of their faults and flaws. A little optimistic realism never hurt anyone and is a hell of a lot better than the negativity displayed by many on this board.

The bigger question is if they're in that borderline competing non-competing zone... will JR authorize additional payroll for 2-3 months with pretty abysmal attendance? 

You will need to address 2B RF and perhaps a veteran starting pitcher for back filling the rotation or covering further injuries or non performance. 

Min price tag will be $10-15 million if they legitimately want to compete. 

[The Beast]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The bigger question is if they're in that borderline competing non-competing zone... will JR authorize additional payroll for 2-3 months with pretty abysmal attendance? 

You will need to address 2B RF and perhaps a veteran starting pitcher for back filling the rotation or covering further injuries or non performance. 

Min price tag will be $10-15 million if they legitimately want to compete. 

What if additional spending is not authorized and this is the team they have to compete with? What if Romy and Frazier man the positions you mention and succeed at them for the rest of the year?

Lets worry about next year in the offseason.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

18 minutes ago, The Beast said:

Good take. I also think injuries have hurt this team and that a rebuild isn’t what they need. More talent in the minors? Absolutely, but not at the expense of the major league roster talent.

The question I think ST posters need to ask themselves is, on May 23, or by the end of the month, are you in, or are you out? As in, will they contend for the division and you believe they can do it, or  I want this team to burn, they have no chance and I have no hope.

I’m in the optimistic camp they can do this camp despite all of their faults and flaws. A little optimistic realism never hurt anyone and is a hell of a lot better than the negativity displayed by many on this board.

I'm a fan for a long time. I've seen it all. Never too high about the rebuild. Never too low about the downfall since mid season 2021.

Injuries as a myth is laughable. Arguably our 2 biggest offensive prospects were Robert and Eloy. They have been on the same team for 3+ seasons, marred by COVID and labor troubled seasons. They have both been injured often and missed so many games that you can legitimately say, and get very little argument, that neither has ever had a season that wasn't screwed up by COVID, labor issues, massive injuries and internal issues caused by the owner hiring TLR and his many other "philosophies" of what to spend money on. There's been so many problems that we often can't list them all in our shorts posts arguing back and forth about it all. Did I think deep down even at the heights of the frenzy of optimism that the rebuild would result in a Championship like it did for the Cubs and Astros. Hell no. Optimism flows and we forget who is running the show.

Do I think this season is over because now that the negativity has reached pitch forks and torches levels ? Hell no ! Does it look bad ? Hell yes ! I see them playing better but they either are or aren't who we thought they were. Stay tuned. It aint' over til the fat lady signs even if you hate opera. A lot of endings are predictable especially since only one team can win it all every year. So I might as well sit back relax and watch it all unfold . I can't blame the players for getting injured any more than I can blame Hendriks for getting cancer. I feel bad for them that they've lost so much time. Their injuries may have ruined a lot of seasons and thwarted seeing them at their best together but it's not their fault. They can't live in bubbles playing sports. I don't really like feeling negative towards players because they don't live up to my expectations.

But owners and executives are something else. In baseball there are multiple ways to go about team building and multiple executives to hire, fire etc. But if the guy in charge of it all only knows one way to structure his franchise that has proven again and again to be  very flawwed then I'm going to be more bothered by the puppeteer than I am by the puppets.

[michelangelosmonkey]

11 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Well they have six weeks to prove it on the field and prevent a sell-off, perhaps buy a piece or two.

I think much of the pessimism before Opening Day was not filling the 2B and RF positions, par for the course, and the offseason swapping out Abreu's salary for a corner OF with no power and a 5th starter with various issues. I stayed away from here for 3 months, but came back and have been grateful being engaged with the Sox playing well. Perhaps they are playing bad teams now, but I remember when the Sox were solid and lost to these same bad teams, so I'm glad they are taking care of business and perhaps they will have a healthy Eloy, Tim, and Liam back when the stronger teams hit the schedule in June.

I don't like the narrative for 2023 that they didn't fill the holes at 2b and RF.  They did with two of their hottest prospects...Colas and Sosa.   It wasn't idiotic to roll them out there, have them bat 8th and 9th and grow up in the majors...but then Moncada got hurt, and TA got hurt and Eloy and we were back to 2023...where you have 4 hitters trying to support the offense and the team couldn't be patient.  I'm also not sure what the alternative was.  Conforto at 2-$36?  Probably would have been a reasonable gamble as it was short term...but obviously risky or he would have gotten more than that.   Who at second base was more than just another Josh Harrison?   Elvus seems like a fine back up.  Yes we will see how it rolls out...it was suboptimal to start off the season with the hardest schedule in baseball (by a wide margin when I looked at it a few weeks ago), the surprise loss of your ace reliever, injuries and a rookie manager.   They walked to the center of the ring...got punched in the nose, fell to the mat, crawled to the corner but made it to the bell.  Now its the next round.   This was never hopeless.   The Tigers and Royals are hopeless because they don't have the talent.  If we struggle to the trade deadline...sure...begin the rebuild around Robert, Cease and Kopeck.   Trade everyone over 30.  I just don't think it will be necessary and we will have the cash to trade for a nice part.