Why did the downfall happen and could it have been avoided?

[michelangelosmonkey]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Counting on the same players who are often injured year after year, for some crazy reason, hasn't quite worked out. 

Robert has played 98% of the games this year.   TA had a five year run of being available 90+% of the time.  Eloy is a clumsy kid but appendix is random.   Moncada...ok he's an orchid. You can't count on good luck but you shouldn't rely on bad luck either.   

[Quin]

2 hours ago, elrockinMT said:

You are correct in my opinion. Optimism is not welcome and being positive borders on a sin. I believe one of the major reasons this team has not been successful the last season or so is INJURIES. I don’t see any reason to tear down this team RF will be filled by Colas. We may needs 2Bman but Lenyn Sosa may take that in a year. Catcher may need to be addressed in 2024 unless the team brings back Yasmani. The Sox would be well advised in bringing back the pitching staff. The Sox have a very good team they just need to stay healthy 

I mean @Chisoxfn and I are both overly optimistic at times, but this team has a unique way of taking every piece of good news and countering it with one or two pieces of bad news. I can't blame people for being jaded when the core built to contend goes .500 in 2022 (after being picked by a number of outlets to be a World Series contender!) and then following that up with a horrific April.

But that being said, some complaints are nonsensical - like, the Sox haven't signed Aaron Hicks, so don't complain about it.

Yoan Moncada made a music video 3 years ago and people act like he's signed a record deal and is on tour. It was a one-time offseason hobby. If you have problems with that, then get upset about any player that goes hunting. If we want any baseball related activity from that video, at least he stayed in shape, I guess?

But as for the operation of the team itself? Be plenty mad about them when they don't perform. Fans have earned that right. They've earned the right to be mad about the team not stocking up on legitimate starting depth past Davis Martin (Scholtens five innings the other day was a godsend) when they should know that all five starters staying health is a rarity - and in this case, six. Especially because Martin got hurt in his last start last year.

The Sox are frustrating because there are so many self-inflicted, easily corrected mistakes - don't give two prime gratuity years to Tony, actually be serious and seal the deal on Wheeler, Harper, or Machado. So when people defend the Sox smartest-people-in-the-room mentality, that's when people get overly snippy.

*I will note that I was OK with Colas and Lenyn/Romy on the team, but that's as someone that was/still is a pretty big believer in Colas and Lenyn.

[caulfield12]

Colas, sure, he was a 70-something rated prospect.

But expecting a repeat out of Andrus (or Cueto) was always going to be fool's gold, plus moving Andrus to another position entirely.

The biggest issue to me was probably KNOWING that Sosa and Romy and Remillard (based partially on 2022 MLB play, partially on career history and Sox history of position player draft/intl. successes or lack thereof other than the very top Cubans) weren't everyday players and just rolling with that was going to be a massive gamble...especially as these guys weren't exactly Top 5-7 guys in the Dodgers' or Rays' system.

 

(All that said, the Padres are running out a roster that's nearly TWICE as expensive as the White Sox and they STILL have massive issues with both rostered catchers (Nola a disaster hitting-wise, #1 backup in Campusano out for two months, so on to catcher #3 Sullivan), Trent Grisham's hitting/K's make him strictly a platoon guy, Ha Seong Kim being a "marginal" everyday player due to his below average offense, Brandon Dixon subbing for Machado, Engel quickly cut and Azocar back, but they also relied on severely AGING Nelson Cruz and Carpenter and that attempt to capture lightning in a bottle has failed too. Miserably.

So basically that core of four superstars with Machado out suddenly has become 3 superstars that have largely underachieved and a bottom 3-4-5 players on any given night quite similar to what the White Sox have been running out there on the back end of their starting lineup.   Their fourth/fifth best player is Cronenworth, and NONE of the line-up members are hitting with RISP, they're worse than any team in baseball history with an under .200 average.

The point is that the White Sox at $180 million have the same number of line-up holes as a team with a $350 million payroll, and I'd even taken the Sox pen with Crochet/Hendriks 100% over SD, too.  Maybe even a slight advantage to the Sox rotation, too.)

 

The primary difference HERE is that Soto could/would likely be traded in the next 1 1/2 seasons to restock their farm/pitching and Preller/Melvin both dumped.  Or they really double down and go after Ohtani, lol.  Currently, they're something like 3-4 games out of 3rd in the WC race.  But the expectations are just THAT high...coming off the NL Championship series...in comparison to the fading hopes and dreams of Sox fans entering the 2022 season (after one year of TLR) and trailing 3 teams in the worst division in baseball so far in 2023.

 

The White Sox pretty obviously aren't going to go to those lengths of tearing apart their entire front office and coaching staff again.  They might even hold onto their impending FA's until the last two months of the pennant race like Giolito, Grandal, Lopez, and at best get a QO/compensation pick back for Giolito...or maybe nothing at all, like Carlos Rodon.

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, Colome's Hat said:

Two things can be true: Rick  Hahn fucking sucks at putting together a roster and this team is easily good enough to win a crappy division.  I think we are starting to see things turn around.  They will get a boost with Hendriks being back.  86 wins likely wins the division this year.  They are good enough to do that.

This is a possibility, but I truly believe only one and perhaps zero AL Central teams will win more than 78 games this season, meaning if the Sox win 79, I don't see another team finishing ahead of them,

The wild card would be if one of the teams actually stepped up and significantly improved their roster before the trade deadline, with Detroit the most likely based on their owner, and Minnesota and Chicago being longer shots with this scenario.

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't really like feeling negative towards players because they don't live up to my expectations.

But owners and executives are something else. In baseball there are multiple ways to go about team building and multiple executives to hire, fire etc. But if the guy in charge of it all only knows one way to structure his franchise that has proven again and again to be  very flawwed then I'm going to be more bothered by the puppeteer than I am by the puppets.

This is how I always approached sports. Nearly every player competes and tries the best they can within their abilities. FO has similar wants, but unlike players, FOs can go on far longer than the finite terms players are subject. 

Ownership is supposed to serve as proper stewards for the team and community, but over the past 40-50 years seem to be mere grifters leaching off of society as a whole between billions in taxpayer stadium shakedowns and living off of cable / pay television revenue which over 90% of the public isn't even interest in, but are stuck paying since cable and satellite are not ala carte. The later is definitely suffering a slow death, hopefully the former does as well. 

2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I don't like the narrative for 2023 that they didn't fill the holes at 2b and RF.  They did with two of their hottest prospects...Colas and Sosa.   It wasn't idiotic to roll them out there, have them bat 8th and 9th and grow up in the majors...but then Moncada got hurt, and TA got hurt and Eloy and we were back to 2023...where you have 4 hitters trying to support the offense and the team couldn't be patient.  I'm also not sure what the alternative was.  Conforto at 2-$36?  Probably would have been a reasonable gamble as it was short term...but obviously risky or he would have gotten more than that.   Who at second base was more than just another Josh Harrison?   Elvus seems like a fine back up.  Yes we will see how it rolls out...it was suboptimal to start off the season with the hardest schedule in baseball (by a wide margin when I looked at it a few weeks ago), the surprise loss of your ace reliever, injuries and a rookie manager.   They walked to the center of the ring...got punched in the nose, fell to the mat, crawled to the corner but made it to the bell.  Now its the next round.   This was never hopeless.   The Tigers and Royals are hopeless because they don't have the talent.  If we struggle to the trade deadline...sure...begin the rebuild around Robert, Cease and Kopeck.   Trade everyone over 30.  I just don't think it will be necessary and we will have the cash to trade for a nice part.    

The Sox needed a LH power hitter and RF is the harder of the two corner spots to fill, so Conforto made a hell of a lot more sense than Benintendi. Much easier for the cornucopia of Sox DHs to fill LF than RF.

Oscar Colas is in his Age 24 season with only 7 AAA games under his belt, so it was idiotic and irresponsible by Hahn to assume he could be a starter on Opening Day.

Sosa is in his Age 23 season with only 57 AAA games under his belt, and not even the foreign experience Colas had, so this was even more irresponsible and put Sosa in a position to fail and stunt his development.

Romy Gonzalez is in his Age 26 season, so it's reasonable to put him in a sink or swim situation as a backup, and he plays defense good enough to cover several positions which is what they needed after cutting Leury.

[Dominikk85]

BTW I don't think the team is that bad. If anyone is healthy the could still compete for the division next year but the margin for error is very small due to the lack of depth, I.e when anyone is healthy and performing this still is a dangerous team and I also think TA will bounce back.

 

But the lack of depth in combination with injury prone players is an issue.

The opposite of that are the rays, they are also injured a lot but they can bring up a 1-2 war player for any roster spot while the sox have to bring up some -1 war guy if somebody gets hurt.

Regarding Jerry not spending on player development: more and more owners get that investing a few millions in technology and coaches is a good investment but still many owners very much hate to spend money on stuff other than the roster. That is because an investment in player dev won't pay off until 4-5 years in the future (a new system usually takes 1-2 years before it is really running and helping the players and everyone is buying in) and also it is hard to quantify how much it actually helps.

It still is smart to spend in player dev but Jerry probably doesn't want to do such an "experiment" anymore in his age especially since it also would mean to alienate some of the long tenured coaches and scouts that are in the org.

Maybe in the post Jerry Era that will change, some of the younger businessmen are more into analytics and stuff like this.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Dominikk85 said:

BTW I don't think the team is that bad. If anyone is healthy the could still compete for the division next year but the margin for error is very small due to the lack of depth, I.e when anyone is healthy and performing this still is a dangerous team and I also think TA will bounce back.

 

But the lack of depth in combination with injury prone players is an issue.

The opposite of that are the rays, they are also injured a lot but they can bring up a 1-2 war player for any roster spot while the sox have to bring up some -1 war guy if somebody gets hurt.

Regarding Jerry not spending on player development: more and more owners get that investing a few millions in technology and coaches is a good investment but still many owners very much hate to spend money on stuff other than the roster. That is because an investment in player dev won't pay off until 4-5 years in the future (a new system usually takes 1-2 years before it is really running and helping the players and everyone is buying in) and also it is hard to quantify how much it actually helps.

It still is smart to spend in player dev but Jerry probably doesn't want to do such an "experiment" anymore in his age especially since it also would mean to alienate some of the long tenured coaches and scouts that are in the org.

Maybe in the post Jerry Era that will change, some of the younger businessmen are more into analytics and stuff like this.

White Sox one of the organizations with least amount of minor league affiliates, short season squads (used to be Bristol and Helena/Great Falls), AZ, DSL, etc. 

[caulfield12]

When's the last time we saw this? 

 

"I think we’ve got a few selfish players on the team. All they care about is swinging for the fences and being the hero.

 

A great example of a team that plays like a team, is the Braves. If anybody saw the last couple of innings of tonight’s game against the Dodgers, you’ll know what I mean. The Dodgers tied the game at three in the 8th, but every Braves player was on the rail in the bottom half, patting their teammates on the back, even when they made an out. Where it really showed was the bottom of the 9th. After Riley hit a leadoff double, d’Arnaud came to the plate. Instead of swinging for the fences, he was trying to punch the ball to the right (it was obvious), and he ended up hitting a grounder to first, which moved Riley to third. When he got to the dugout, you would have thought he hit a walk-off HR - plenty of high fives from everybody, just for doing what he had to do to advance the runner. That’s what cohesive teams do!!

 

Oh yeah, Riley scored. Braves won."

 

www.gaslampball.com

[michelangelosmonkey]

6 hours ago, Quin said:

I mean @Chisoxfn and I are both overly optimistic at times, but this team has a unique way of taking every piece of good news and countering it with one or two pieces of bad news. I can't blame people for being jaded when the core built to contend goes .500 in 2022 (after being picked by a number of outlets to be a World Series contender!) and then following that up with a horrific April.

But that being said, some complaints are nonsensical - like, the Sox haven't signed Aaron Hicks, so don't complain about it.

Yoan Moncada made a music video 3 years ago and people act like he's signed a record deal and is on tour. It was a one-time offseason hobby. If you have problems with that, then get upset about any player that goes hunting. If we want any baseball related activity from that video, at least he stayed in shape, I guess?

But as for the operation of the team itself? Be plenty mad about them when they don't perform. Fans have earned that right. They've earned the right to be mad about the team not stocking up on legitimate starting depth past Davis Martin (Scholtens five innings the other day was a godsend) when they should know that all five starters staying health is a rarity - and in this case, six. Especially because Martin got hurt in his last start last year.

The Sox are frustrating because there are so many self-inflicted, easily corrected mistakes - don't give two prime gratuity years to Tony, actually be serious and seal the deal on Wheeler, Harper, or Machado. So when people defend the Sox smartest-people-in-the-room mentality, that's when people get overly snippy.

*I will note that I was OK with Colas and Lenyn/Romy on the team, but that's as someone that was/still is a pretty big believer in Colas and Lenyn.

I did a look at attendance a few years back when I was arguing that JR wasn't cheap...seems like Sox core attendance is around 18,000...you get 18,000 to Comiskey Park to watch a paddle ball game on a nice summer day.   If the fans think they are good...that jumps to 24,000 and if really excited to 30,000.  Post WS is 36,000.  So if a fan is worth $100 the core income from attendance is $144 million, an ok team is $192 mill, a great team $240 mill and WS $288.  I argued that JR is not an idiot, he's a businessman and he understands that the Sox can't count on idiot frat boys turning out on day games to get drunk no matter the product.  Cubs base looks to be more like 28-30,000.   So if you make payroll through tickets you don't spend when the team is bad but hit the accelerator when they are good.  I predicted the payroll would jump to $190 in the window to laughs of derision.  And then it did ( top 10 payroll every time they are good for the last four decades).  But it's also clear that the next jump was put on hold...partly because JR lost two nearly full years of attendance because of COVID but also because the super exciting team (remember this dirge is only a year old) attendance only jumped to 24,000.   Now it is back down to the core at 17,000...of course its early and a hot streak now could lead to big crowds in the meaty months.  Still its why the team should probably get moved out to the western suburbs where they can guarantee a much higher base. 

The team's future is not turned on a 7th starter or a backup 2b.  They need to built up potential star core to produce...which will bring the crowds...which will bring the budget.   To me the situation feels like COVID + injuries has hurt us more than any team.   Black Sox curse.    

[Bob Sacamano]

4 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

BTW I don't think the team is that bad. If anyone is healthy the could still compete for the division next year but the margin for error is very small due to the lack of depth, I.e when anyone is healthy and performing this still is a dangerous team and I also think TA will bounce back.

 

But the lack of depth in combination with injury prone players is an issue.

The opposite of that are the rays, they are also injured a lot but they can bring up a 1-2 war player for any roster spot while the sox have to bring up some -1 war guy if somebody gets hurt.

Regarding Jerry not spending on player development: more and more owners get that investing a few millions in technology and coaches is a good investment but still many owners very much hate to spend money on stuff other than the roster. That is because an investment in player dev won't pay off until 4-5 years in the future (a new system usually takes 1-2 years before it is really running and helping the players and everyone is buying in) and also it is hard to quantify how much it actually helps.

It still is smart to spend in player dev but Jerry probably doesn't want to do such an "experiment" anymore in his age especially since it also would mean to alienate some of the long tenured coaches and scouts that are in the org.

Maybe in the post Jerry Era that will change, some of the younger businessmen are more into analytics and stuff like this.

This feels like such a low bar. A .500 record can most likely win this division. Jerry Reinsdorf loves you.

[The Mighty Mite]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

When's the last time we saw this? 

 

"I think we’ve got a few selfish players on the team. All they care about is swinging for the fences and being the hero.

 

A great example of a team that plays like a team, is the Braves. If anybody saw the last couple of innings of tonight’s game against the Dodgers, you’ll know what I mean. The Dodgers tied the game at three in the 8th, but every Braves player was on the rail in the bottom half, patting their teammates on the back, even when they made an out. Where it really showed was the bottom of the 9th. After Riley hit a leadoff double, d’Arnaud came to the plate. Instead of swinging for the fences, he was trying to punch the ball to the right (it was obvious), and he ended up hitting a grounder to first, which moved Riley to third. When he got to the dugout, you would have thought he hit a walk-off HR - plenty of high fives from everybody, just for doing what he had to do to advance the runner. That’s what cohesive teams do!!

 

Oh yeah, Riley scored. Braves won."

 

www.gaslampball.com

I watch most of the Rays games and intensity of the Rays players compared to  to Sox players is huge, we have some guys that look like they’re going through the motions and seem like they would rather be somewhere else.

Edited May 25, 2023 by The Mighty Mite

[WBWSF]

49 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I did a look at attendance a few years back when I was arguing that JR wasn't cheap...seems like Sox core attendance is around 18,000...you get 18,000 to Comiskey Park to watch a paddle ball game on a nice summer day.   If the fans think they are good...that jumps to 24,000 and if really excited to 30,000.  Post WS is 36,000.  So if a fan is worth $100 the core income from attendance is $144 million, an ok team is $192 mill, a great team $240 mill and WS $288.  I argued that JR is not an idiot, he's a businessman and he understands that the Sox can't count on idiot frat boys turning out on day games to get drunk no matter the product.  Cubs base looks to be more like 28-30,000.   So if you make payroll through tickets you don't spend when the team is bad but hit the accelerator when they are good.  I predicted the payroll would jump to $190 in the window to laughs of derision.  And then it did ( top 10 payroll every time they are good for the last four decades).  But it's also clear that the next jump was put on hold...partly because JR lost two nearly full years of attendance because of COVID but also because the super exciting team (remember this dirge is only a year old) attendance only jumped to 24,000.   Now it is back down to the core at 17,000...of course its early and a hot streak now could lead to big crowds in the meaty months.  Still its why the team should probably get moved out to the western suburbs where they can guarantee a much higher base. 

The team's future is not turned on a 7th starter or a backup 2b.  They need to built up potential star core to produce...which will bring the crowds...which will bring the budget.   To me the situation feels like COVID + injuries has hurt us more than any team.   Black Sox curse.    

I don't know if moving to the suburbs would increase their attendance. Last year the White Sox drew over 2 million fans. I've read numerous times that 20% of White Sox fans go the games via public transportation. There 's very little public transportation in the suburbs.

[michelangelosmonkey]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Colas, sure, he was a 70-something rated prospect.

But expecting a repeat out of Andrus (or Cueto) was always going to be fool's gold, plus moving Andrus to another position entirely.

The biggest issue to me was probably KNOWING that Sosa and Romy and Remillard (based partially on 2022 MLB play, partially on career history and Sox history of position player draft/intl. successes or lack thereof other than the very top Cubans) weren't everyday players and just rolling with that was going to be a massive gamble...especially as these guys weren't exactly Top 5-7 guys in the Dodgers' or Rays' system.

 

(All that said, the Padres are running out a roster that's nearly TWICE as expensive as the White Sox and they STILL have massive issues with both rostered catchers (Nola a disaster hitting-wise, #1 backup in Campusano out for two months, so on to catcher #3 Sullivan), Trent Grisham's hitting/K's make him strictly a platoon guy, Ha Seong Kim being a "marginal" everyday player due to his below average offense, Brandon Dixon subbing for Machado, Engel quickly cut and Azocar back, but they also relied on severely AGING Nelson Cruz and Carpenter and that attempt to capture lightning in a bottle has failed too. Miserably.

So basically that core of four superstars with Machado out suddenly has become 3 superstars that have largely underachieved and a bottom 3-4-5 players on any given night quite similar to what the White Sox have been running out there on the back end of their starting lineup.   Their fourth/fifth best player is Cronenworth, and NONE of the line-up members are hitting with RISP, they're worse than any team in baseball history with an under .200 average.

The point is that the White Sox at $180 million have the same number of line-up holes as a team with a $350 million payroll, and I'd even taken the Sox pen with Crochet/Hendriks 100% over SD, too.  Maybe even a slight advantage to the Sox rotation, too.)

 

The primary difference HERE is that Soto could/would likely be traded in the next 1 1/2 seasons to restock their farm/pitching and Preller/Melvin both dumped.  Or they really double down and go after Ohtani, lol.  Currently, they're something like 3-4 games out of 3rd in the WC race.  But the expectations are just THAT high...coming off the NL Championship series...in comparison to the fading hopes and dreams of Sox fans entering the 2022 season (after one year of TLR) and trailing 3 teams in the worst division in baseball so far in 2023.

 

The White Sox pretty obviously aren't going to go to those lengths of tearing apart their entire front office and coaching staff again.  They might even hold onto their impending FA's until the last two months of the pennant race like Giolito, Grandal, Lopez, and at best get a QO/compensation pick back for Giolito...or maybe nothing at all, like Carlos Rodon.

This is another credo of Soxtalk...negativity on our own prospects.  The idea that you KNEW Lenyn Sosa was going to be a bust based on history of the Sox busting at these positions is crazy.  He put up a .900 OPS in Birmingham while 2 years younger than league average in half a season at that pitchers park, then he put up an .820 OPS in Charlotte in half a season at 4 years younger than average.  You know which other middle infielder also put up a combined .880 OPS in AA/AAA spit at 22 and flailed in a few at bats in the majors?   Marcus Semien.  And we traded him away a year later for a bag of magic beans because "we know our middle infield prospects are never good" and then he's averaged a 4 WAR for the next 9 years.  Sox should just bring Sosa up and play him at 2b and have everyone shut up.    

[SonofaRoache]

The bottom line is we hoped to win with the rebuild guys. We put no effort into adding quality young talent to protect the window from busts and injuries.The FO also operated as if other teams wouldn't try to get better as well. Teams like the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rangers and Angels should have never passed us by. Look at how the Rangers, Padres, Phillies, Astros, Blue Jays, and Braves have operated and compare them to our FO. 

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

This is another credo of Soxtalk...negativity on our own prospects.  The idea that you KNEW Lenyn Sosa was going to be a bust based on history of the Sox busting at these positions is crazy.  He put up a .900 OPS in Birmingham while 2 years younger than league average in half a season at that pitchers park, then he put up an .820 OPS in Charlotte in half a season at 4 years younger than average.  You know which other middle infielder also put up a combined .880 OPS in AA/AAA spit at 22 and flailed in a few at bats in the majors?   Marcus Semien.  And we traded him away a year later for a bag of magic beans because "we know our middle infield prospects are never good" and then he's averaged a 4 WAR for the next 9 years.  Sox should just bring Sosa up and play him at 2b and have everyone shut up.    

They pigeon holed Semien as a utility guy right away with the Sox…never imagined him as a pure SS.

He was mostly at second and third with the Sox.

The story of how Ron Washington turned him into the overall player he is…that’s quite well known.

Part of it was simply skeptics not imaging a later round draft pick can ever become a stud…a similar SS was Jeremy Pena out of Maine.

 

I’ve worked in minor league baseball in the 90s and you can just tell…the sound of the bat and ball contacting with wood vs. aluminum.  Infield or RF arms.  One obvious tell is RH hitters that struggle with high fastballs.  It was the death of Beckham and Viciedo in the majors.  It is one of the bigger issues for Sox position player prospects…swings that are either too long or slider speed bats.

Especially with so many pitchers now at 95+, it’s one thing to crush fastballs and struggle with offspeed stuff…but you absolutely must have Frank Thomas plate discipline if you're a much better breaking ball than FB hitter because getting behind in the count will kill you, especially if you’re a low contact rate hitter.

[michelangelosmonkey]

7 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

The bottom line is we hoped to win with the rebuild guys. We put no effort into adding quality young talent to protect the window from busts and injuries.The FO also operated as if other teams wouldn't try to get better as well. Teams like the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rangers and Angels should have never passed us by. Look at how the Rangers, Padres, Phillies, Astros, Blue Jays, and Braves have operated and compare them to our FO. 

What do you mean we put "no effort into adding players"?  We are still drafting players and making interesting international signings.  And the Astros have "passed us by"????   The same Astros we've been chasing?   The Phillies were a year ahead of us in the rebuild and started fire hosing money at free agents in 2019 and went....4th at 500, 3rd under .500, 2nd at .500, 3rd at 12 games up (and WS) and are under .500 again.  Imagine the hatred on Phillies Talk about their wasted time.  And the Orioles and Rangers have had a nice 49 games.  The enormous patience and respect Soxtalk has for every other organization and the hatred of all things White Sox is so weird and exhausting.   

[Snopek]

10 hours ago, The Beast said:

A little optimistic realism never hurt anyone and is a hell of a lot better than the negativity displayed by many on this board.

Except it’s not one size fits all. What works for you doesn’t work for everyone. We all respond to this stuff differently. I shouldn’t be told to be optimistic, just like you shouldn’t be told to be less optimistic.

Now the insults and ridicule for how you feel about the team are a different story. That s%*# is dumb as hell.

[Snopek]

9 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Robert has played 98% of the games this year.   TA had a five year run of being available 90+% of the time.  Eloy is a clumsy kid but appendix is random.   Moncada...ok he's an orchid. You can't count on good luck but you shouldn't rely on bad luck either.   

I think a big issue many of us have is that they actually were counting on good injury luck as part of their plan.

[Tony]

When did being a "fan" turn into having blind loyalty and ignoring reality? You sound like a petulant child, @michelangelosmonkey. 

The White Sox have objectively been one of the worst baseball teams in MLB the last decade (and you could go back a lot longer than that.)

And you think the Sox fans are "too negative?" 

Get fucked. 

[Quin]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

This is another credo of Soxtalk...negativity on our own prospects.  The idea that you KNEW Lenyn Sosa was going to be a bust based on history of the Sox busting at these positions is crazy.  He put up a .900 OPS in Birmingham while 2 years younger than league average in half a season at that pitchers park, then he put up an .820 OPS in Charlotte in half a season at 4 years younger than average.  You know which other middle infielder also put up a combined .880 OPS in AA/AAA spit at 22 and flailed in a few at bats in the majors?   Marcus Semien.  And we traded him away a year later for a bag of magic beans because "we know our middle infield prospects are never good" and then he's averaged a 4 WAR for the next 9 years.  Sox should just bring Sosa up and play him at 2b and have everyone shut up.    

If the Sox traded Sosa, we all know who would mention in him at every single opportunity if he made the major leagues in the next two years and put up a WAR north of 0.

On 3/30/2023 at 1:27 PM, caulfield12 said:

Alex Call starting for the Nationals in the OF.

Go farm system?

 

On 4/8/2023 at 9:48 AM, caulfield12 said:

Avi Garcia...failed to ever become extension worthy

Drafts 

Keon Barnum

Kennyn Walker

Trayce Thompson LAD/Luis Gonzalez/Micker Adolfo/Steele Walker/Alex Call hanging on in WSH

Carson Fulmer

Zack Collins

Nick Madrigal

Courtney Hawkins

Burger (miracle he even made big leagues after what he had to overcome physically)

Z. Burdi

Garrett Crochet (injured, was always a question if he could stand up to starting duty from draft day)

Vaughn (jury still out)

 

Rodon and TA7 and Sale...the three main successes

Let's not get into second round draft picks lol.  Barren wasteland.

 

On 4/17/2023 at 11:26 PM, caulfield12 said:

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2023&month=0&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2023-01-01&enddate=2023-12-31&sort=10,d&page=6_30

Never thought I would see Colas and Alex Call right next to each other in OPS. 

Or Jared Kelenic #4 in all of baseball. 

For now... 

 

On 4/29/2023 at 6:19 PM, caulfield12 said:

Joe Borchard never even got a real extended shot compared to Kelenic. 

Took Crede and Rowand multiple seasons to break into the lineup. 

Beckham and then Anderson were the last two position player rookies allowed to start every single day. 

Brian Anderson was benched and Viciedo only gift wrapped lefties by Ozzie until 2012.  TLR turned on Yermin. 

 

Semien the obvious miss with this style of indoctrination.  Eduardo Escobar as well as they were pigeon holed as super utility guys early with the Sox. 

Alex Call eventually made it to the majors as an extreme split platoon guy.  Luis Gonzalez last year with SF.  Trayce Thompson had runs with the Sox and Dodgers but has never been able to put it together for an extended period.  Very hit and miss... especially outfielders. recently.  Colas just the latest. 

 

 

On 5/9/2023 at 2:59 PM, caulfield12 said:

Alex Call 654, Benintendi 649. 

Actually has improved his defense from last year, -2.3 in both categories. 

0.0 fWAR. 

Last year +13.6 on offense and 2.8 fWAR. 

Comps to Pollock/Peralta fall off continue, albeit still only 28. 

 

13 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Alex Call will be at 0.3 fWAR after tonight, 641 ops

Benintendi, 0.5 fWAR and 680 ops

Difference in salary, significant. 

 

On 5/10/2023 at 5:20 PM, caulfield12 said:

Jimmy Cordero 2-1, .84 WHIP, NYY

Dane Dunning into 7th with a 1.78 ERA against Mariners, 4-2 lead

Burdi briefly back with TB

Diekman soon with TB

Ian Hamilton closing out TB with a one run lead for a save this week

David Robertson

Tommy Kahnle??? 

Jose Ruiz

 

Have to be missing a few...definotely not Kimbrel, lol, who's still abysmal, the "Kimbrel" Curse on the Sox

 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, WBWSF said:

I don't know if moving to the suburbs would increase their attendance. Last year the White Sox drew over 2 million fans. I've read numerous times that 20% of White Sox fans go the games via public transportation. There 's very little public transportation in the suburbs.

The Chicago Fire paid $65.5M to flee the suburbs and return to Soldier Field.

People also discussed moving the Cubs to Schaumburg, though that was primarily for shake down leverage that failed.

Can see the Sox moving to Nashville, San Antonio or Portlandia before they move to Bolingbrook.

 

[The Kids Can Play]

12 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

@tray has valid points beyond ownership. Jerry told just about everyone in MLB who clever he was targeting second place over 40 years, including those attending the sports ownership seminar he participated in a few weeks ago.

Sure he gave Hahn and Tony a few dimes to play with at the candy store the past two years, but completely nickel and dimed the scouts, analytics, minor league players including unnecessary jab mandates and slumlord living and eating conditions, and the shameful dumping of international slot money to save a couple hundred grand here and there.

Abd of course cancelling the one other best chance at a WS in 1994 to “crush the union”.

People see what an idiot Reinsdorf has been recently. However it's always good to go down memory lane. Long before Jerry's stupid LaRussa hire and letting Jerry Krause get rid of Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson after 6 titles, Jerry also, as you so correctly pointed out, screwed his own White Sox team in 1994. The Sox team that easily could have won him his first WS title before the 2005 WS title...and all because the arrogant idiot wanted to crush the player's Union at the expense of his own team.

[Quin]

55 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

What do you mean we put "no effort into adding players"?  We are still drafting players and making interesting international signings.  And the Astros have "passed us by"????   The same Astros we've been chasing?   The Phillies were a year ahead of us in the rebuild and started fire hosing money at free agents in 2019 and went....4th at 500, 3rd under .500, 2nd at .500, 3rd at 12 games up (and WS) and are under .500 again.  Imagine the hatred on Phillies Talk about their wasted time.  And the Orioles and Rangers have had a nice 49 games.  The enormous patience and respect Soxtalk has for every other organization and the hatred of all things White Sox is so weird and exhausting.   

The Astros are the most dominant team of the past decade.

Phillies have been to a World Series.

Orioles are on the upswing like where the 2020 and first-half-of-2021 White Sox were (when we were happy).

The Rangers went out and made moves to sign star players. Also, the Peagle rocks (as do the Southside jerseys).

Like, c'mon man. People have legitimate reasons to be mad about this team.

[The Beast]

1 hour ago, Snopek said:

Except it’s not one size fits all. What works for you doesn’t work for everyone. We all respond to this stuff differently. I shouldn’t be told to be optimistic, just like you shouldn’t be told to be less optimistic.

Now the insults and ridicule for how you feel about the team are a different story. That s%*# is dumb as hell.

Fair enough, but the discussion level is raised when we can discuss why it’s possible to be optimistic with balancing that versus pessimism in the same post. It’s better to read that than this player or this executive sucks over and over again.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

If the Sox traded Sosa, we all know who would mention in him at every single opportunity if he made the major leagues in the next two years and put up a WAR north of 0.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Solid research.

[bmags]

Fun thing about the Call trade, you have to admit, is it was partly due to Hostetlers piss poor management of the farm, cramming college draft after college draft together and ending up with a legitimately difficult back log as players adjusted to AA. Call was traded out of that "surplus" in a silly trade to gain favor with Machado. 

As Call hits the big leagues and provides depth, we are basically out of outfielders as the remainder of prospects had washed out, been picked out due to 40 man issues, or traded. 

Creating a winning baseball organization is absolutely complex and difficult and that's why you should move on from people who cannot handle complexity, like Rick Hahn. Let him just go be a professional rich persons friend in winnetka and keep him away from the team.