Burger taking reps at 2B

[The Kids Can Play]

1 hour ago, wegner said:

Weren't some people advocating for Vaughn to get reps at 2B too?

Yes, but not me. From day one I have been adamant that Moncada should move to 2nd. I know Moncada is better at 3rd than Burger, but the point is we need both bats in the lineup. Plus when they moved Moncada to 3rd, that was several years ago. How do we know if he goes back to 2B he won't play the position better. He has improved as a fielder  and he should be able to make the adjustment. Hell, he played 2B his entire life up until the move.

Since the Sox genius braintrust will not move Moncada to 2B, then put Burger at 1st. He would be better at 1B than Vaughn and Vaughn can play the OF. Maybe Vaughn is not great in the OF, but he wasn't that bad. Burger has never played 2B or OF. Plus you cannot put Eloy in the OF as he would be an injury waiting to happen. 

[Bob Sacamano]

19 minutes ago, Quin said:

Talked to him recently, he's doing well. Instead of spending money at Sox games, it's going to a nice family vacation.

Thanks. He lives in the city where I went for my bachelor party earlier this month and he gave me some advice at some point in the offseason (one of two posters to offer advice). I went to thank him and that's when I noticed it had been a while since he has even signed on here. We're talking about like a week into spring training since his last sign in so it's not like the early play and vibe around here would have kept him away.

Edit: I guess it would after a while but for someone who posted here all the time and started many threads to disappear in February was weird.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Bob Sacamano

[Eminor3rd]

It’s obviously too late at this point, but it’s almost like the white sox don’t even know you’re allowed to trade players.

I cannot fathom the thought behind developing 8 interesting first basemen at the same time, and trading none of them while allowing yourself to field replacement level players at several positions. 

[wegner]

36 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Yes, but not me. From day one I have been adamant that Moncada should move to 2nd. I know Moncada is better at 3rd than Burger, but the point is we need both bats in the lineup. Plus when they moved Moncada to 3rd, that was several years ago. How do we know if he goes back to 2B he won't play the position better. He has improved as a fielder  and he should be able to make the adjustment. Hell, he played 2B his entire life up until the move.

Since the Sox genius braintrust will not move Moncada to 2B, then put Burger at 1st. He would be better at 1B than Vaughn and Vaughn can play the OF. Maybe Vaughn is not great in the OF, but he wasn't that bad. Burger has never played 2B or OF. Plus you cannot put Eloy in the OF as he would be an injury waiting to happen. 

I disagree. Vaughn was awful in the OF. I may be in the minority here, but I think the Sox need to leave Vaughn alone at 1B. I have confidence that he will be a long term offensive weapon. I am also in the minority in thinking that RBIs are important and that is why Jose was so great here....Vaughn currently leads the team in RBIs.

[JoeC]

1 hour ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Yes, but not me. From day one I have been adamant that Moncada should move to 2nd. I know Moncada is better at 3rd than Burger, but the point is we need both bats in the lineup. Plus when they moved Moncada to 3rd, that was several years ago. How do we know if he goes back to 2B he won't play the position better. He has improved as a fielder  and he should be able to make the adjustment. Hell, he played 2B his entire life up until the move.

Since the Sox genius braintrust will not move Moncada to 2B, then put Burger at 1st. He would be better at 1B than Vaughn and Vaughn can play the OF. Maybe Vaughn is not great in the OF, but he wasn't that bad. Burger has never played 2B or OF. Plus you cannot put Eloy in the OF as he would be an injury waiting to happen. 

To echo @wegner... yes, he was that bad:

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outs_above_average?type=Fielder&startYear=2022&endYear=2022&split=yes&team=&range=year&min=q&pos=of&roles=&viz=hide

Of all outfielders last year, was the lowest-rated (per Statcast) out of 125 outfielders on Outs Above Average (-17) as well as Runs Prevented (-15).

[chitownsportsfan]

237/319/398. Now, that's not Elvis Andrus' line, that's Andrew Vaughn. 

[Jerksticks]

8 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

237/319/398. Now, that's not Elvis Andrus' line, that's Andrew Vaughn. 

Yuck.  
 

He had a pretty okay April, really bad May.  
 

Hopefully he rips in June.  

[Illinibat]

This is dumb.

Burger 3B / Moncada 2B is a better overall defensive lineup than Moncada 3B / Burger 2B.

[JoeC]

9 minutes ago, Illinibat said:

This is dumb.

Burger 3B / Moncada 2B is a better overall defensive lineup than Moncada 3B / Burger 2B.

Yes, but a legitimate 2Bman + Moncada (or Burger) at 3B is better than either of the above two.

[The Kids Can Play]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

To echo @wegner... yes, he was that bad:

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outs_above_average?type=Fielder&startYear=2022&endYear=2022&split=yes&team=&range=year&min=q&pos=of&roles=&viz=hide

Of all outfielders last year, was the lowest-rated (per Statcast) out of 125 outfielders on Outs Above Average (-17) as well as Runs Prevented (-15).

Ok maybe Vaughn isn't that good. However the one thing different this year is you have a competent left fielder in addition to arguably the best center fielder in baseball. Having Vaughn is right and knowing he really doesn't have to cover that much ground will not kill us. I think that is a lot better move than moving Burger to 2B where he never played. Imo, I fully believe with Jack's size and lack of true 2B quickness, he could get injured easier than sticking him at first. 

[The Kids Can Play]

40 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Yes, but a legitimate 2Bman + Moncada (or Burger) at 3B is better than either of the above two.

The problem is we don't have a legitimate 2B other than moving Moncada to 2B. All the others are:

Elvis Andrus - .201/.280/.254/.534/ -0.4

Hanser Alberto - .219/.266/.397.663/ 0.3

Romy Gonzalez - .200/.212/.320/.532/ -0.6

I'm sorry, but Moncada at 3B with one of three slugs at 2B is not better than Burger at 3B and Moncada at 2B. 

 

[The Kids Can Play]

2 hours ago, wegner said:

I disagree. Vaughn was awful in the OF. I may be in the minority here, but I think the Sox need to leave Vaughn alone at 1B. I have confidence that he will be a long term offensive weapon. I am also in the minority in thinking that RBIs are important and that is why Jose was so great here....Vaughn currently leads the team in RBIs.

Don't get me wrong I am a big Vaughn fan too and believe in time we will get more consistent. I am not debating if Vaughn is better than Burger at 1B. He probably is for now only because he played it his entire life.

Also yes Vaughn is the #1 RBI player on the team. However based on the amount of games Andrew has played versus Burger, Jake is averaging more RBI's per game. Vaughn has 31 RBI's in 49 games compared to Burger has 24 RBI's in 33 games. Vaughn is averaging 0.632 RBI's per game vs. Burger at 0.727 RBI's per game. That is why we need both of their bats in the lineup along with Moncada all at the same time.

The real debate here is how do we keep Burger in the same lineup once Eloy comes back and takes away the DH role from Jake. In my opinion it makes no sense to move Burger to 2B to a position he never played before. There is a lot more critical plays at 2B than first. Burger does not have the agility or quickness to play 2B. We learned from the last few years how stupid it is to make people play positions they have never played before. Yes this would be a new position for Burger playing 1B, but if you can play 3B, you can play 1B. In fact many third basemen in past history have moved from third to first. 

You also can't put Eloy in the OF as he would clearly get injured sooner than later. He can only play one spot and that is DH.

The best move is Moncada to 2B since we did trade for him as being a 2nd baseman and #1 prospect at that position. Again I am not, nor have I ever claimed Burger is a belter 3B than Moncada. I am simply looking at the logic of keeping both bats in the lineup on a daily basis. 

As a result you either put Burger at 3rd or 1st. Vaughn at least has the experience even though limited, to play the OF. 

 

[wegner]

1 hour ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Don't get me wrong I am a big Vaughn fan too and believe in time we will get more consistent. I am not debating if Vaughn is better than Burger at 1B. He probably is for now only because he played it his entire life.

Also yes Vaughn is the #1 RBI player on the team. However based on the amount of games Andrew has played versus Burger, Jake is averaging more RBI's per game. Vaughn has 31 RBI's in 49 games compared to Burger has 24 RBI's in 33 games. Vaughn is averaging 0.632 RBI's per game vs. Burger at 0.727 RBI's per game. That is why we need both of their bats in the lineup along with Moncada all at the same time.

The real debate here is how do we keep Burger in the same lineup once Eloy comes back and takes away the DH role from Jake. In my opinion it makes no sense to move Burger to 2B to a position he never played before. There is a lot more critical plays at 2B than first. Burger does not have the agility or quickness to play 2B. We learned from the last few years how stupid it is to make people play positions they have never played before. Yes this would be a new position for Burger playing 1B, but if you can play 3B, you can play 1B. In fact many third basemen in past history have moved from third to first. 

You also can't put Eloy in the OF as he would clearly get injured sooner than later. He can only play one spot and that is DH.

The best move is Moncada to 2B since we did trade for him as being a 2nd baseman and #1 prospect at that position. Again I am not, nor have I ever claimed Burger is a belter 3B than Moncada. I am simply looking at the logic of keeping both bats in the lineup on a daily basis. 

As a result you either put Burger at 3rd or 1st. Vaughn at least has the experience even though limited, to play the OF. 

 

If I remember correctly, Burger has played some 1B and looked decent there. I would love to keep Burger in the lineup....except when we are playing in Cleveland 

[soxrwhite]

Burger at second would give us a perfect chance to complain about bad defense and management playing players out of position.

[JoeC]

1 hour ago, The Kids Can Play said:

The problem is we don't have a legitimate 2B other than moving Moncada to 2B. All the others are:

Elvis Andrus - .201/.280/.254/.534/ -0.4

Hanser Alberto - .219/.266/.397.663/ 0.3

Romy Gonzalez - .200/.212/.320/.532/ -0.6

I'm sorry, but Moncada at 3B with one of three slugs at 2B is not better than Burger at 3B and Moncada at 2B. 

 

My point is that the best option is to offload one of your 3Bmen to fill the 2B hole via trade.

...or I guess Cesar Hernandez is available.

[The Kids Can Play]

5 minutes ago, JoeC said:

My point is that the best option is to offload one of your 3Bmen to fill the 2B hole via trade.

...or I guess Cesar Hernandez is available.

You can do that and I assume you would move Moncada since at this stage he has way more value than Burger. However what team is going to give up a good second baseman unless you had some team desperate for a third baseman and have a few quality second baseman on their major league roster. I seriously doubt that team and possibility even exists.

I do like the idea of trading Moncada but let's wait closer to the trade deadline and then find some team to give us prospects and maybe one of them could be a promising young second baseman.

Of course if genius Hahn didn't butcher and destroy the farm system, there should have been a decent second baseman to bring up. 

[oldsox]

5 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Btw, where has @southsider2k5 been? Shows last login of February 23rd, so before the season. Hope all is well with him.

Been wondering the same thing.

[pcq]

3 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Ok maybe Vaughn isn't that good. However the one thing different this year is you have a competent left fielder in addition to arguably the best center fielder in baseball. Having Vaughn is right and knowing he really doesn't have to cover that much ground will not kill us. I think that is a lot better move than moving Burger to 2B where he never played. Imo, I fully believe with Jack's size and lack of true 2B quickness, he could get injured easier than sticking him at first. 

Vaughn is not much worse than Burger so go with the hot hand. If they ever go to the five DH's rule Sox would be winners. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, The Kids Can Play said:

You can do that and I assume you would move Moncada since at this stage he has way more value than Burger. However what team is going to give up a good second baseman unless you had some team desperate for a third baseman and have a few quality second baseman on their major league roster. I seriously doubt that team and possibility even exists.

I do like the idea of trading Moncada but let's wait closer to the trade deadline and then find some team to give us prospects and maybe one of them could be a promising young second baseman.

Of course if genius Hahn didn't butcher and destroy the farm system, there should have been a decent second baseman to bring up. 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/player/_/id/32170/rougned-odor

Was available...29...has had a very solid May after a rough April. 

Has at least been a positive fWAR player in recent years and has the flexibility to play all over the infield. 

[greg775]

14 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

I cannot fathom the thought behind developing 8 interesting first basemen at the same time, and trading none of them while allowing yourself to field replacement level players at several positions. 

That's a great post. To field a contender Sox scouts had to pick the best 1B and 3B and make some trades. They won't pull the trigger on trades and it has hurt the franchise for sure.

[The Kids Can Play]

16 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/player/_/id/32170/rougned-odor

Was available...29...has had a very solid May after a rough April. 

Has at least been a positive fWAR player in recent years and has the flexibility to play all over the infield. 

I realize this kid has been hitting good in May, and would be valuable since he can play 2B, RF and 3B. However even if we traded for him, is it worth giving up what little prospects we have, to get a guy to play second as an upgrade yes, but then we still haven't solved the Burger/Eloy dilemma.

[Quin]

16 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/player/_/id/32170/rougned-odor

Was available...29...has had a very solid May after a rough April. 

Has at least been a positive fWAR player in recent years and has the flexibility to play all over the infield. 

This board would have loathed Rougned Odor like no other. The man strikes out at a rate that would make half the Sox batters blush.

Basing this on 14 games is pretty much like going off Andrus' 2022 White Sox stint, except you know you'll at least get his glove.

[soxfaninfl]

Sorry, I just don’t see a dilemma. Put Eloy in right. We need his bat as much if not more than anyone else and he wants to play the field. Fine, go be an all-star then, will ya? Tired of the kid-glove treatment of Eloy. Let him play and let’s see what we got.

Burger as primary DH. Sheets will fill in for days off between Burger, Eloy, and Vaughn or if someone goes cold. Plus, Sheets would be a nice have in close games as a PH but all will get significant playing time.

With how this season is going, what could you possibly lose?

Edited May 26, 2023 by soxfaninfl

[caulfield12]

The thing with Odor is that prior to last season, he was worth 2.6 1.0 and 1.3 in full seasons.

Only 29 and gives you multiple infield positions and likely at least a 1-1.5 fWAR season for a very affordable price. 

I know the bar should be closer to 2-2.5, but those players are much more expensive to sign in FA or trade for. What you can't do is be at NEGATIVE fWAR at so many positions. 

Virtually nobody thought Andrus would come close to a repeat, especially at a totally different position than where he's played his entire career. 

And that would be a one year band aid solution at best to surround the core of your rebuild with. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

16 minutes ago, soxfaninfl said:

Sorry, I just don’t see a dilemma. Put Eloy in right. We need his bat as much if not more than anyone else and he wants to play the field. Fine, go be an all-star then, will ya?

Burger as primary DH. Sheets will fill in for days off between Burger, Eloy, and Vaughn or if someone goes cold. Plus, Sheets would be a nice have in close games as a PH but all will get significant playing time.

With how this season is going, what could you possibly lose?

Have you ever watched him throw? 

It's just like Pollock over there over again...except Eloy is 3-5x likelier to get hurt and certainly more likely to injure Luis Robert inadvertently. 

Is it really a brilliant idea to have the likes of Eloy Sheets and Vaughn so close to completely screwing up one of the most important players in the AL Central (in terms of value to his franchise) with yet another injury? 

Edited May 26, 2023 by caulfield12