5/31/2023 - Angels @ Sox (retroactive gamethread)

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

40 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

My point is the regular season is now a farce in all sports with all of these pathetic wild cards, but Las Vegas has been a solid franchise during it's short existence.

I agree with your premise, just sticking up for the only team besides the White Sox I still follow care about at this juncture. 

Yes the regular season means just about nothing which is why I suggested and not for the 1st time, that the baseball season be shortened, mostly for the health of the players but it's never likely to happen.

[Balta1701]

26 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

For a chance at the World Series many teams do it though. In that context it wasn't all that risky. Giolito was in his 3rd season of getting Cy Young votes. After that he fell off . Cease was improving. Kopech was injured but was expected to be a high quality starter. We all know that the Sox have made that same mistake in years that they were mediocre. Samardzija, Bassitt, James Shields and in that context it is far worse. You cannot predict the future with youth. Dunning might look good ATM for his 12 appearances (8 in relief) but who knows how he'll do as as starter the rest of the year and in 24 and 25.

If we look at all the injuries that doomed the Sox as well as the lack of depth at all levels Dunning wouldn't have helped the Sox contend in 2022 or 2023 and what he does going forward is a mystery.

We can't talk about him now as if he's an All Star. He's not and he may never be. Fine depth for a contender like the Rangers With Dunning and without Lynn there's no playoffs in 2021 . If they weren't developing youth and kept every prospect they're likely still mediocre . Trades must be made at some point .

 I've long been saying the Sox have need to start getting more, youthful and operate more like Tampa Bay. We can't wish it into existence. Jerry and Hahn do what they do and we know what the usual results are. Crying about not having Dunning now is pure hindsight. At the time many thought it was a great trade for the "window".

I’d be willing to bet that they have a similar result in 2021 with Dunning instead of Lynn. #3 seed, first round exit.

If you want the Sox to operate like the Rays, and you want to complain about how there’s no depth to replace injuries, look at all the trades they made where they gave up talent and also took on salary. I come up with half a dozen starting in 2019. Some were good on paper, some were bad on paper, some worked out bad, some worked out good, but the consequence was always loss of depth and less money to spend. That deal type is the opposite of the Rays, the opposite of building depth. They could have overcome that with good drafting or with more spending, but they’ve been bad with both. 

If you’re going to do deals like that, then either you better win, you better have a reserve to use, or you better be ready to rebuild.

[Dick Allen]

The amount of games the last couple seasons that were basically over after the 1st inning reminds me of the James Shields era.

[The Kids Can Play]

9 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You trade youth for Veterans in your contention window and Lynn was better than Dunning easily in 2021.

Lynn 157 IP 4.2 fWAR  (5.5 bWAR) 3rd in Cy Young voting

Dunning 117.2 IP 1.8 fWAR   (.7 bWAR)

2022

Lynn 121.2 IP Injured and sucked for all but his last 12 starts, 1.9 fWar  (.7 bWAR)

Dunning 153.1 IP  .9 fWar  (1.1 bWAR)

2023

Lynn 63.1 IP  .7 fWar  although I suspect it might be lower after today.

Dunning 43 IP 1.0 fWar He has only started 4 games and pitched in relief the other 8 games he has appeared in.

Context matters. The Sox needed Lynn in 2021  way more than they needed Dunning. 2022 was a slight edge to Dunning

You used BWAR which is acceptable for pitchers. It widened the gap between Lynn Dunning in 2021 with a huge edge to Lynn

It closed the gap in 2022. fWar had Lynn  1.0 WAR better while bWAR had Dunning .4 better even though he pitched 32.1 more innings.

2023 edge to Dunning but since he's only started 4 games its hard to compare them.

2021 Lynn was a big part of the Sox success.

Lynn has been a big part of the 22-23 WhiteSox failures.

Dunning wouldn't have made a difference in 2022 except for salary . Same in 2023. Going forward Lynn is likely toast. Going forward with Dunning is a mystery . He could end up back in the pen or become a reliable starter. The Rangers have him through 2026.

 

 

I didn't like the trade then and I hate the trade even more now. 

Your theory of trading youth for a veteran in a contention window is partly correct, but Lynn was going downhill and he wasn't the veteran we needed. Yes he had a decent run in St Louis. However starting in 2018-2020 with three different teams, he had a 4.07 ERA. He was 34 at the time of the trade and was a heavy guy then. I didn't think he would age well. Dunning on the other hand, had the kind of pitches that could make him a real solid starting pitcher with the right coaching.

You are also forgetting Hahn traded away Adam Eaton in 2016 at the start of the rebuild to get Giolito, Lopez and Dunning. There were suppose to be the three starters heading into the WS championships Hahn promised in 2016. Dunning was not a home grown prospect. Dunning like Gio and Lopez were ready to contribute in a few years and Hahn should have kept Dunning and given away some other lower end pitching prospects. Dunning was too much. 

Save your debate and counter stats to come back at me, because we are going to agree to disagree. You couldn't change my mind on this in a million years, no mater how many stats or theories you offer. 

Btw, the poster asked the question, "does anyone miss Dunning" and my answer is still the same. 

Again in the overall final resume and "Ben Franklin" for Rick Hahn on his rebuild debacle....this trade will be on the negative "con" side. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I’d be willing to bet that they have a similar result in 2021 with Dunning instead of Lynn. #3 seed, first round exit.

If you want the Sox to operate like the Rays, and you want to complain about how there’s no depth to replace injuries, look at all the trades they made where they gave up talent and also took on salary. I come up with half a dozen starting in 2019. Some were good on paper, some were bad on paper, some worked out bad, some worked out good, but the consequence was always loss of depth and less money to spend. That deal type is the opposite of the Rays, the opposite of building depth. They could have overcome that with good drafting or with more spending, but they’ve been bad with both. 

If you’re going to do deals like that, then either you better win, you better have a reserve to use, or you better be ready to rebuild.

I'm not sure what you are proposing. There is no perfect way to win a World Series. A lot of teams do it different ways. Many sign megabucks FA. Lester and Heyward Cubs. They traded youth for Chapman. They also traded for Quintana trying to sustain their run. Boston traded for Sale. Houston signed Verlander and developed a lot of youth. Dodgers ,despite all their talent with their farm system and all their money won 1 World Series in the Covid year . Yankees consistently outspent everyone in FA. The Padres signed big FA's and traded a lot of youth and no World Series.

If you want to complain how the Sox do it  that's fine I do it all the time. Tell me the perfect way on the Sox budget to win consistently be in contention for a World Series. TB has never won one but their methods for their budget are sound. I'm defending one FA signing they made. Were they not supposed to sign Grandal when they badly needed a catcher , more LHH and OBP ? Collins ended up being a bad draft choice, Fulmer. Madrigal, Vaughn all no help. Cease's great year was no help. Kopech no help. Gio no help after 2021. Lynn no help after they resigned him in the middle of the 2021 season. Rodon had 1 more good year after the Sox decided not to keep him

I ultimately think it was failed draft choices and poor participation in Int'l FA  for many many years and the Sox utter lack of investment in youth that doomed the rebuild and a lack of commitment in high quality FA that led to failure . But even if they had done those things it's hard to overcome injuries and inconsistencies in performance  to most of the youth they acquired to start the rebuild among the other ways JR doesn't invest in youth.You tell me how to be perfect enough to consistently stay in contention and win a World Series. I'll hang up and listen to pass it along to the 29 other teams.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

17 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I didn't like the trade then and I hate the trade even more now. 

Your theory of trading youth for a veteran in a contention window is partly correct, but Lynn was going downhill and he wasn't the veteran we needed. Yes he had a decent run in St Louis. However starting in 2018-2020 with three different teams, he had a 4.07 ERA. He was 34 at the time of the trade and was a heavy guy then. I didn't think he would age well. Dunning on the other hand, had the kind of pitches that could make him a real solid starting pitcher with the right coaching.

You are also forgetting Hahn traded away Adam Eaton in 2016 at the start of the rebuild to get Giolito, Lopez and Dunning. There were suppose to be the three starters heading into the WS championships Hahn promised in 2016. Dunning was not a home grown prospect. Dunning like Gio and Lopez were ready to contribute in a few years and Hahn should have kept Dunning and given away some other lower end pitching prospects. Dunning was too much. 

Save your debate and counter stats to come back at me, because we are going to agree to disagree. You couldn't change my mind on this in a million years, no mater how many stats or theories you offer. 

Btw, the poster asked the question, "does anyone miss Dunning" and my answer is still the same. 

Again in the overall final resume and "Ben Franklin" for Rick Hahn on his rebuild debacle....this trade will be on the negative "con" side. 

I don't have counter arguments. There's no perfect way to win a World Series or stay in contention. There are many many things the Sox do wrong and I'm consistently the one whining about them along with Balta and the wonderful recent post from eminor.

Basically if you take all the posters here who pick out one thing or player to complain about, they all have differnt idea. SOme hate the lack of big name signings. Some hated Grandal, Keuchel now Lynn once he started to failthey never should have resigned him etc.

During the height of the frenzy about about the direction the Sox were headed in 2020 and 2021 I posted that the rebuild would fail. I'd have trouble finding that post. I dont even know which thread it was in  or the year I posted it.

 I think I said something about typical Sox contention window with Covid, Labor problems , injuries etc. Not sure if I mentioned Hahn or JR. I always complain about their methods so it's likely I did. If you think the Lynn trade was bad so be it. Add it to the list of the Sox many many failures but I'll tell you the same thing I told Balta. Tell me the perfect way to consistently stay in contention and throw in a World Series win every 5 years of so and I'll pass it along to the 29 other teams with small and medium and big budgets. Picking out one trade that actually worked seems odd. One minor leaguer who hasn't done much of anything yet for 1 3rd place Cy Young year seems like a decent trade. Resigning him turned out to be the mistake a much bigger mistake.

At least they didnt give up Semien, Bassitt and 2 others for one year of Samardzija. Imagine having Semien, Tatis ( James Shield trade) and Bassitt  for the rebuild years. The failure of the rebuild started with those trades but Sox are gonna Sox in multiple bad ways. Add it to the long list.

[Highland]

11 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Except that the last 7 tr 8 times it happened( bases loaded less than 2 outs I think) the Sox were 7 for 7 with hits and one time with a sac fly. That ended when Vaughn hit into a DP but right before that he had the bases loaded double that cleared the bases in the same game.

True but the simple fact the Sox have passed up many scoring opportunities and it has cost them.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just now, Highland said:

True but the simple fact the Sox have passed up many scoring opportunities and it has cost them.  

Add it to the list of why bad teams are bad . With how their pitching has been what does it get the Sox a couple more wins ?

 

[KipWellsFan]

18 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

Nice job Fat Keuchel of giving your team absolutely no chance to win this game today. 

Can Soxtalk be better than this?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, KipWellsFan said:

Can Soxtalk be better than this?

Welcome to SoxTalk

[South Side Hit Men]

12 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes the regular season means just about nothing which is why I suggested and not for the 1st time, that the baseball season be shortened, mostly for the health of the players but it's never likely to happen.

While the regular season means "just about nothing" in terms of the World Series, I really enjoy following the regular season, and don't really give a rats ass about MLB's playoffs since the last legitimate one held 30 years ago. I follow Spring Training more than Selig/Manfred sham postseasons.

I did follow the White Sox 2005 one intensely, just as I did that season, attending dozens of games and every post season home game. They had a great team and great season. They were worthy of winning a legiitmate championship.

I didn't watch the 2000 or 2008 playoffs, because I spent most of my 20s and 30s away from following the White Sox after Jerry destroyed first Comiskey Park and then MLB itself in 1994 in his quest for max greed and avarice. I did follow 2020 and 2021, the former because that team did well and was enjoyable, the latter because the team did have a solid season. Future playoffs would be dependent on whether the Sox had a legitimate regular season, or slipped in because of the greed driven playoff expansion.

I want the Sox to win 90 + games and win the Division in the regular season each season. I would have far more enjoyed a 92 win season and 2nd place finish in the pre wild card days than a 79 or 83 win division title in 2023, which I believe will be the threshold this year (2nd-5th teams in the AL Central and possibly the NL Centrals will have less than 79 wins).

A 92 win season was very good season, and I would be proud of what the team accomplished. A 79 win season is garbage, a 83 win season is mediocre, even if they are a "wild card" or "division "champion"". Sure. a team's goal should be to reach the playoffs, but the real goal is to have a team accomplish a solid regular season (90 + wins) AND a solid post season.