Notice how Merkin and Hahn are trying to make trade deadline just as much about Grifol job security

[Lip Man 1]

13 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I was against all of it. But Hahn was a hero on this board and in Chicago. People were ecstatic about the tank job/rebuild. They loved seeing the losses pile up and the roster change. The sentiment was almost like this tank job was the only way to go and the Sox were gonna reap the benefits of the tank, getting better draft choices and those few blockbuster deals: Cease, Eloy superstars. Kopech, Gio and even Lopez lol. Hahn was beloved during the tank job; go back and look at the posts. Fraud.

Again that's not my comment and the second part of it is important too:

No one could have foreseen how those contracts impacted those guys and their effort. But it was clear when Tony LaRussa was hired that Rick really is powerless. I just don’t have a lot of faith that he can get this done. And words matter, when he talked about “Multiple championships” and “Call me after the parade”…if you are going to be arrogant like that you need to deliver and he hasn’t.”

 

[greg775]

Heard on the twitter highlight of the postgame show Ozzie and the other guy talking about no excitement in Sox dugout when Timmy got the run in.

That's it. Final straw. Fire the manager and hire frickin Ozzie or AJP, somebody, anybody to kick some butt in the dugout/locker room. These guys get paid too much $$$, beer costs too much for the loyal fan, for them not to care!!! This is absurd. 

Sox have no will to win at all. Manager's fault. Does he even want to be manager? 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

45 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Heard on the twitter highlight of the postgame show Ozzie and the other guy talking about no excitement in Sox dugout when Timmy got the run in.

That's it. Final straw. Fire the manager and hire frickin Ozzie or AJP, somebody, anybody to kick some butt in the dugout/locker room. These guys get paid too much $$$, beer costs too much for the loyal fan, for them not to care!!! This is absurd. 

Sox have no will to win at all. Manager's fault. Does he even want to be manager? 

I think it's Tim. Look at how the clubhouse reacted to his All-Star game selection compared to other teams. There's an issue there that I'm sure will come to light once he is no longer a Sox.

[shago]

15 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Haven't we seen plenty of baseball lifers struggle at the GM role, and guys who didn't have any experience with playing or scouting baseball have success? Andrew Friedman comes to mind as his wikipedia page suggests that he only played a little baseball in college and then went on to work for BearStearns once he graduated. 

Being able to scout players yourself is only one part of the job. Understanding making deals, understanding how to surround yourself with good people, managing risk, understanding your financial situation, managing outreach and marketing, these are all tasks that don't necessarily require you to be able to personally scout baseball players. Many of these are business tasks and management tasks. 

OK, so Rick Hahn sucks at business tasks, management tasks and scouting. Got it.

[shago]

8 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I've noticed that lately even Merkin is coming to terms with reality and stating in "nice" terms the rebuild is a failure (although he still refuses to blame his friend, Michigan grad, like himself, Hahn)

Merkin is a Sox shill, like all insiders of this organization, ignoring obvious facts and constantly spinning s%*# into shinola. 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, shago said:

OK, so Rick Hahn sucks at business tasks, management tasks and scouting. Got it.

I would agree with this. If there’s one thing we’ve consistently said about this franchise, it is no longer running very well. You have strikes outdoors by the food workers, massive turnover in the ticket sales staff, the marketing staff can’t even figure out that having Clevinger come out to the song “gold digger” is a bad idea, they signed Clevinger with an insufficient background check, they had a completely unnecessary contract fight with their main play by play broadcaster and are set up to run him out of town, they tried to cover up a coach’s DUI, there’s plenty more.

None of these affect the team on the field directly but they have all fed into the dissatisfaction, and anger coming at the franchise.

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I would agree with this. If there’s one thing we’ve consistently said about this franchise, it is no longer running very well. You have strikes outdoors by the food workers, massive turnover in the ticket sales staff, the marketing staff can’t even figure out that having Clevinger come out to the song “gold digger” is a bad idea, they signed Clevinger with an insufficient background check, they had a completely unnecessary contract fight with their main play by play broadcaster and are set up to run him out of town, they tried to cover up a coach’s DUI, there’s plenty more.

None of these affect the team on the field directly but they have all fed into the dissatisfaction, and anger coming at the franchise.

Don’t forget running Giolito out of town for no other reason than being the union rep.

But at least Hahn et al didn’t lose the Brian Ball discrimination case…so yay for that?

Cancelling Sox Fest, raising parking and ticket prices in some areas of the park coming off last year’s extremely disappointing season…getting James Fegan fired because the fanbase has started to completely tune out of anything to do with the team.

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by caulfield12

[SCCWS]

17 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Hahn has always been full of s%*# and obviously a disastrous GM.

When you look back at his credentials, why would we expect him to be good as a GM? Ok after he graduated from Michigan he went to Harvard law school and then got an MBA from Northwestern. Those are fine academic achievements, but they have nothing to do with judging baseball prospects, judging ML pro players, drafting, developing a strong farm system, negotiating solid trades and signing productive free agent, etc. 

His first job after all the college was as an sports agent which has nothing to do with prearing to be a good GM.

Then his second job he somehow lucked into the assistant GM under Kenny.

Here is what we do know:

1. He never played baseball.

2. He never was a baseball scout. 

3. He never learned the various aspects of a successful baseball organization by moving up the ranks and doing different meaningful positions.

4. Then when Hahn did fail miserably as GM, the owner was ignorant, stubborn and ridiculously loyal to a detrimental point, in not firing Hahn. This of course is the basic definition of Insanity.

 

Just my take but Chris Antonetti won GM of the year last year for the Indians. Cleveland had a very good year and Antonetti was rewarded.  But Look back at Antonetti 's career which is very similar to Hahn's  He had the same basic academic career. Neither one was a player. Antonetti worked his way up in the Front Office and was a few years behind Hahn. So it is not the background as much as what the MLB executive accomplished along the way.  From appearances,  the Front Office and Francona and his staff have done a good job running the Indians without breaking the Bank. The Front Office for the White Sox and several managers and staff also have not broken the Bank but they have not accomplished much either. 

[The Kids Can Play]

15 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I agree with this.

I was on a podcast yesterday where I went into a deep dive in a lot of these areas if you are interested:

https://www.southsidesox.com/2023/6/22/23770543/sox-populi-white-sox-podcast-150-no-historical-precedent

Thanks

[South Side Hit Men]

5 hours ago, greg775 said:

I was against all of it. But Hahn was a hero on this board and in Chicago. People were ecstatic about the tank job/rebuild. They loved seeing the losses pile up and the roster change. The sentiment was almost like this tank job was the only way to go and the Sox were gonna reap the benefits of the tank, getting better draft choices and those few blockbuster deals: Cease, Eloy superstars. Kopech, Gio and even Lopez lol. Hahn was beloved during the tank job; go back and look at the posts. Fraud.

I joined here in 2020 (was on WSI back in the day), but there were solid posters here skeptical of the process over the three years including Hahn's roster construction, players drafted, and overpays on players signing their last significant MLB contracts. A few of us took s%*# criticizing the Grandal deal, or laughing at Hahn's GM of the Year award after a bogus season mostly bad moves during the 2019-2020 off-season, including firing Ricky after giving him an extension 60 games earlier, and the holes that were and continue to be issues with the club this entire faux window. La Russa was the final nail in the coffin in terms of expecting anything good to come out of this several year process.

Ultimately this is on Jerry, because he should have started with bringing in someone to build a new front office and organization organization after 2015 or 2016. He only upped payroll and made support staff additions in 2021 and 2022 because he was doing it for Tony.

[Saufley]

10 hours ago, greg775 said:

I was against all of it. But Hahn was a hero on this board and in Chicago. People were ecstatic about the tank job/rebuild. They loved seeing the losses pile up and the roster change. The sentiment was almost like this tank job was the only way to go and the Sox were gonna reap the benefits of the tank, getting better draft choices and those few blockbuster deals: Cease, Eloy superstars. Kopech, Gio and even Lopez lol. Hahn was beloved during the tank job; go back and look at the posts. Fraud.

Tear it down! All of it. All this owner cares about is the profit line.

[The Kids Can Play]

26 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Just my take but Chris Antonetti won GM of the year last year for the Indians. Cleveland had a very good year and Antonetti was rewarded.  But Look back at Antonetti 's career which is very similar to Hahn's  He had the same basic academic career. Neither one was a player. Antonetti worked his way up in the Front Office and was a few years behind Hahn. So it is not the background as much as what the MLB executive accomplished along the way.  From appearances,  the Front Office and Francona and his staff have done a good job running the Indians without breaking the Bank. The Front Office for the White Sox and several managers and staff also have not broken the Bank but they have not accomplished much either. 

I appreciate your take, but comparing Rick Hahn to Chris Antonetti is comparing apples to oranges.

Here are the differences:

Antonetti has been with the Guardians for 24 years in much more successful winning culture and worked in a lot more critical positions than Hahn.

The Cleveland winning tradition and culture is light years ahead of the White Sox especially in terms of building a top ranked farm system on a consistent basis.

Since the Guardians have never been able to spend big free agent dollars being in a small market environment, they needed to concentrate and be great at building a strong farm system. Antonetti has been able to learn those scouting, drafting and developing lessons in a much stronger winning culture than the Sox. Over the years the Guardians have always had one of the top ranked farm systems. Obviously the Sox have not.

Antonetti had the valuable experience working and learning from winners like Mike Chernoff and Mark Shapiro.

Antonetti hired Francona back in 2012 and in that same time, the Sox hired Ventura, Renteria, LaRussa and Grifol.

As you said, the academic background helps, but we can see now, as you clearly pointed out, "it's what you learn and accomplish along the way during your front office experience."

Clearly Hahn hasn't learned very well along the way, but more importantly, Hahn didn't have the winning culture to be exposed around, like you would have in for example in the Guardians, Rays and the Dodgers organizations.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I appreciate your take, but comparing Rick Hahn to Chris Antonetti is comparing apples to oranges.

Here are the differences:

Antonetti has been with the Guardians for 24 years in much more successful winning culture and worked in a lot more critical positions than Hahn.

The Cleveland winning tradition and culture is light years ahead of the White Sox especially in terms of building a top ranked farm system on a consistent basis.

Since the Guardians have never been able to spend big free agent dollars being in a small market environment, they needed to concentrate and be great at building a strong farm system. Antonetti has been able to learn those scouting, drafting and developing lessons in a much stronger winning culture than the Sox. Over the years the Guardians have always had one of the top ranked farm systems. Obviously the Sox have not.

Antonetti had the valuable experience working and learning from winners like Mike Chernoff and Mark Shapiro.

Antonetti hired Francona back in 2012 and in that same time, the Sox hired Ventura, Renteria, LaRussa and Grifol.

As you said, the academic background helps, but we can see now, as you clearly pointed out, "it's what you learn and accomplish along the way during your front office experience."

Clearly Hahn hasn't learned very well along the way, but more importantly, Hahn didn't have the winning culture to be exposed around, like you would have in for example in the Guardians, Rays and the Dodgers organizations.

But this does show you how “he didn’t play baseball and wasn’t a scout” isn’t the biggest problem with Hahn. 

[FloydBannister1983]

17 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2017/11/23/theo-epstein-brookline-field-goal-contests-horror-game-6-boston-sports-memories
 

Looking back on Theo Epstein’s rise as a GM, it’s obvious that he at least had that fundamental understanding of team sports and competition…despite his physical limitations.

It’s where his drive about winning and organizational culture basically came from.

 

And if there’s ONE thing the White Sox have consistently lacked, it’s a unifying set of rules and principles for the entire organization like the Braves, Astros, Rays, Dodgers and Cardinals.

A major reason for this is the Sox major league rosters were always sewn together haphazardly with baling wire from 10-15 different teams…the minor leaguers failed to advance as a wave or unit, year after year building upon previous successes and growing to trust their teammates for 3-5 years together before hitting the big leagues.  They never could rely on teammates and coaches…just themselves.  Hence, all the current trust issues prevalent across the entire organization.

And you would think that after forty flipping years of continuous ownership that the organization would be running like a well oiled machine and there would be a unifying set of principles.

 

Instead they run around like nobody has ever done this before.  You would think the front office had yearly turnover the way it is run.

[The Kids Can Play]

14 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

• While eminently mockable, there is something to a “Cardinal Way” or “Dodgers Way” approach, something the White Sox don’t have, and haven’t for 60 or 70 years

Something we just pointed out earlier in the thread. 

In fact, Sox are going in the opposite direction, cutting affilitates/coaches/staffing and just baseball ops in general. 

They also never came close to ramping up to the 15-25 or 30 staff mark others have dedicated to analytics and modernized approaches to the game. 

Your point on analytics and modern day approaches cannot be emphasized enough. The Sox really are light years behind of number of people hired in the organization dedicated to these metrics and don't even come close to the Dodgers, Cardinals, Rays or Guardians in that area. Hence why the four mentioned clubs, always have highly ranked farm systems that actually contribute to their major league roster. 

[The Kids Can Play]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

But this does show you how “he didn’t play baseball and wasn’t a scout” isn’t the biggest problem with Hahn. 

I didn't say they were the biggest reasons, but they are a part of the reasons.

The fact is, as I've been pointing out in several various posts on the reasons Hahn sucks at his job is the following in addition to no playing or scouting experience:

- He hasn't surrounded himself with people under him that are strong in scouting, drafting advice, coaching and developing prospects in the minors.

- He hasn't hired the right managers and coaches at the ML level to support him.

- He hasn't learned how to be successful at evaluating talent and making good trades

- He hasn't learn how to sign successful FA's. He has been given a very sizeable payroll every year that could have produced a better ML roster.

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by The Kids Can Play

[FloydBannister1983]

9 hours ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

I think it's Tim. Look at how the clubhouse reacted to his All-Star game selection compared to other teams. There's an issue there that I'm sure will come to light once he is no longer a Sox.

This is the 800 pound gorilla in the room.  Nobody likes the guy.  It’s obvious.  Can’t blame the rest of the team.  He a narcissistic a—hole.

I remember when Sammy Sosa left the Cubs stadium early at the end of his last season there.  It was obvious the rest of the team hated him and when he left early Kerry Wood took a bat and smashed that radio that Sosa loved so much.  I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened here.

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I appreciate your take, but comparing Rick Hahn to Chris Antonetti is comparing apples to oranges.

Here are the differences:

Antonetti has been with the Guardians for 24 years in much more successful winning culture and worked in a lot more critical positions than Hahn.

The Cleveland winning tradition and culture is light years ahead of the White Sox especially in terms of building a top ranked farm system on a consistent basis.

Since the Guardians have never been able to spend big free agent dollars being in a small market environment, they needed to concentrate and be great at building a strong farm system. Antonetti has been able to learn those scouting, drafting and developing lessons in a much stronger winning culture than the Sox. Over the years the Guardians have always had one of the top ranked farm systems. Obviously the Sox have not.

Antonetti had the valuable experience working and learning from winners like Mike Chernoff and Mark Shapiro.

Antonetti hired Francona back in 2012 and in that same time, the Sox hired Ventura, Renteria, LaRussa and Grifol.

As you said, the academic background helps, but we can see now, as you clearly pointed out, "it's what you learn and accomplish along the way during your front office experience."

Clearly Hahn hasn't learned very well along the way, but more importantly, Hahn didn't have the winning culture to be exposed around, like you would have in for example in the Guardians, Rays and the Dodgers organizations.

One of the most interesting stats is that Cleveland has never been more than 7 games under .500 going back to the 2016 World Series team... the last year the AL Central was relevant until CLE won something in the post season last year. 

[The Kids Can Play]

7 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

One of the most interesting stats is that Cleveland has never been more than 7 games under .500 going back to the 2016 World Series team... the last year the AL Central was relevant until CLE won something in the post season last year. 

No you're right, the Cleveland organization from top to bottom is just the classic blueprint for how to build and maintain a consistent winning team.

Amazingly they do it every year with a bottom end payroll in a small market.

[greg775]

5 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I joined here in 2020 (was on WSI back in the day), but there were solid posters here skeptical of the process over the three years including Hahn's roster construction, players drafted, and overpays on players signing their last significant MLB contracts. A few of us took s%*# criticizing the Grandal deal, or laughing at Hahn's GM of the Year award after a bogus season mostly bad moves during the 2019-2020 off-season, including firing Ricky after giving him an extension 60 games earlier, and the holes that were and continue to be issues with the club this entire faux window. La Russa was the final nail in the coffin in terms of expecting anything good to come out of this several year process.

Ultimately this is on Jerry, because he should have started with bringing in someone to build a new front office and organization organization after 2015 or 2016. He only upped payroll and made support staff additions in 2021 and 2022 because he was doing it for Tony.

I was despised on the board for arguing against every move during the tank job. I wanted to win every game during the tank years. I wanted to keep Sale and the others. Things have calmed down for me on the board because of Hahn there's not one player I truly care to defend, not one player I totally like, for the first time in my Sox fandom. You can trade any one of these players or get rid of any of the coaches/managers/front office and I won't mind a bit.

[GreenSox]

Most CEOs of, say hospitals, didn’t work as nurses.  Most oil company CEOs didn’t spend time as a roughneck.  Hahn is bad at his job because he is a bad manager.  If he were managing a Starbucks, it would be a disaster.
We all know that Hahn doesn’t know his core business:  he can’t evaluate on-field talent, and he doesn’t know analytics.  That’s not unusual. What’s unusual is that he has refused to hire the best people he can find who do know those things.  Instead, he hires people who, if not his immediate friends, have similar backgrounds.  Look at Haber, his chief assistant:  top schools, sharp dresser and same skillset (or lack thereof).   Where's the analytics department?

Hiring people who won’t show them up is a common trait of bad managers and Hahn scored big in that department. Billy Beane and Andrew Friedman weren’t afraid to hire Farhan Zaidi, e.g. Hahn hires Haber.   Look who Hahn’s hired as field manager (when he’s been allowed to):  not the sharpest knives in the drawer.  
And, of course, he’s an excuse machine, another trait of bad managers.

I could go and on.  He just needs to go.

Edited June 24, 2023 by GreenSox

[SCCWS]

22 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I appreciate your take, but comparing Rick Hahn to Chris Antonetti is comparing apples to oranges.

Here are the differences:

Antonetti has been with the Guardians for 24 years in much more successful winning culture and worked in a lot more critical positions than Hahn.

The Cleveland winning tradition and culture is light years ahead of the White Sox especially in terms of building a top ranked farm system on a consistent basis.

Since the Guardians have never been able to spend big free agent dollars being in a small market environment, they needed to concentrate and be great at building a strong farm system. Antonetti has been able to learn those scouting, drafting and developing lessons in a much stronger winning culture than the Sox. Over the years the Guardians have always had one of the top ranked farm systems. Obviously the Sox have not.

Antonetti had the valuable experience working and learning from winners like Mike Chernoff and Mark Shapiro.

Antonetti hired Francona back in 2012 and in that same time, the Sox hired Ventura, Renteria, LaRussa and Grifol.

As you said, the academic background helps, but we can see now, as you clearly pointed out, "it's what you learn and accomplish along the way during your front office experience."

Clearly Hahn hasn't learned very well along the way, but more importantly, Hahn didn't have the winning culture to be exposed around, like you would have in for example in the Guardians, Rays and the Dodgers organizations.

I would also add that the FO structure has a lot to do with results. Hahn, as GM. may not have the power that Antonetti has. I understand that Francona has been a very good hire in Cleveland and the 4 managers since Ozzie have been "average". 

Bottom line, we don't really know the influence JR and Williams have in running the White Sox. I would think Williams and /or Hahn  should have been let go by now. Since that hasn't happened,  JR may be please with their efforts or just doesn't have a clue what is happening............or both.. 

[The Kids Can Play]

4 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

I would also add that the FO structure has a lot to do with results. Hahn, as GM. may not have the power that Antonetti has. I understand that Francona has been a very good hire in Cleveland and the 4 managers since Ozzie have been "average". 

Bottom line, we don't really know the influence JR and Williams have in running the White Sox. I would think Williams and /or Hahn  should have been let go by now. Since that hasn't happened,  JR may be please with their efforts or just doesn't have a clue what is happening............or both.. 

Hahn has as much authority as Antonetti or others throughout the league. It has always been reported and led to believe, when Hahn was promoted to VP/GM, he was assured by Jerry, he would be in charge without a lot of inference from Kenny or Jerry. Don't kid yourself, other than Jerry forcing LaRussa down his throat, the vast majority of decisions have been on the genius of Hahn himself. Maybe for some huge free agent signing or trade he must confer with Kenny and Jerry, but the final decision is with Hahn.

To be fair though on GM authority, there probably isn't any GM in baseball who doesn't have to go to someone above them for big decisions. For example in the Dodgers organization, the Executive VP & GM is Brandon Gomes. He reports to Andrew Friedman, President of Baseball Operations. I'm sure Gomes has a lot of flexibility and authority on his own, but in any major FA signing or huge trade, I am pretty sure Gomes has to run it across Friedman. I'm sure it's also the same with the Rays, with Peter Bendix SR VP & GM reporting to Erik Neander, Pres of Baseball Operations. My point is, in other successful clubs there is a better collective "Brain Trust" above and below in their front office, than what exist in the White Sox front office. 

As far as Jerry being pleased or not with Hahn, I think he is not pleased. However Jerry's MO has always been loyalty at all cost to to a detriment casualty. Jerry probably knows it's bad, but he is too ignorant and stubborn to do anything about it. As long as you suck up to Jerry, you usually have a long career, even if you are horrible at your job and produce consistent losing results. 

[Tomtom]

I never understood why an organization, who believes it is a World Series contender, would hire a rookie manager with no managerial experience other than being a coach.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, Tomtom said:

I never understood why an organization, who believes it is a World Series contender, would hire a rookie manager with no managerial experience other than being a coach.

Especially when they stated they wanted an experienced manager from a winning organization before hiring Grifol.