Blow it the F Up

[Chicago White Sox]

23 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

Vaughn has been disappointing but he’s still been our 2nd or 3rd best hitter. Don’t see how it could be justified to send him down in favor of Sheets

Might not look great optically, but the thought process is Vaughn needs to work on stuff in the minors without added pressure whereas Sheets gets one final shot in majors to show what he’s got (including his ability to play 1B) before we have harder conversations about his place on the roster.

[sin city sox fan]

This season has been disappointing....no doubt about it.  However, I still believe in the talent.  I think the coaching is the problem.  Blow up the staff and bring in a new manager, hitting coach, and pitching coach.  Bad leadership is a recipe for disaster no matter how good the team is and we have a clown show leading our team.

[Bob Sacamano]

27 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

League average slashline is at .245/.316/.406

Vaughn is .240/.329/.439

He’s a major leaguer at this point, he’s got to work it out in the majors. Nothing he can do at AAA he can’t do here, and since the Sox aren’t competitive there is no reason not to let him do it

 

What's the league average slashline for 1B?

[4uckOffCommieScum]

4 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

What's the league average slashline for 1B?

You tell me

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, SoxAce said:

I don't want Hahn or even some of these scouts making the decisions on prospects though. 

Do you want Hahn trying to retool a 4th place roster in the offseason with limited resources to spend? As much grief as he has gotten for the last couple years, nothing he has done has been as damaging as his retooling attempts.

[SoxAce]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Do you want Hahn trying to retool a 4th place roster in the offseason with limited resources to spend? As much grief as he has gotten for the last couple years, nothing he has done has been as damaging as his retooling attempts.

No. I'm implying I want him fired.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

No. I'm implying I want him fired.

Your three choices are:

1. Rick Hahn leads a rebuild.
2. Rick Han leads a retooling.
3. You find another team/another sport to cheer for.

These are the orders of leader Reindsorf. No other options are acceptable. 

[caulfield12]

31 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

You tell me

He's 25th out of 39 in fWAR...and we know his defense doesn't grade out very well, so he's basically slightly above the average offensively and below average defensively. 

[Balta1701]

50 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

The strike out rate of the staff papers over the shitass defense.  Is the pitching sustainable, probably.  Based on K rate of the staff, the stuff is there to support the BABIP number as the ball in play rate is low and should hold true for the season.

The fact the White Sox are employing players who cannot give professional at bats or play MLB level defense namely Anderson, Eloy. Sheets, Burger and both catchers is the problem.   

Every team has issues/holes it's just that the White Sox have massive one's....like continually worst in baseball production one's.. 

Here is a plot this year of K/9 on the X axis and BABIP on the Y-Axis. If your statement was true, then there should be a negative correlation here. There is not, these two properties are effectively uncorrelated (R2 = 0.0085 for a linear fit).

However, the White Sox's .263 BABIP for the last 2 months - that would very much stand out as it is lower than any other value on that plot. 

The story is very much clear, the White Sox's pitching struggled for the first month, because they had generally bad luck. They have been above average for the following 2 months, because they were particularly lucky. It has balanced out them being a somewhat below average staff overall with average luck, because they are a somewhat below average staff overall. 

[South Side Hit Men]

Perhaps this is the parade Rick is talking about.

 

[bmags]

1 hour ago, SoxAce said:

I don't want Hahn or even some of these scouts making the decisions on prospects though. 

I agree. I'd rather the do that 2015 thing where they have a nice second half of july and make hahn think they are good and don't do anything at deadline and he just washes away eventually.

[Rowand44]

Ya, I think unfortunately we just need to bleed this season out and hope somehow/someway we finally get a front office change in the offseason.  There's just no good answers here until Rick is gone I'm afraid.

[SoxAce]

14 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Your three choices are:

1. Rick Hahn leads a rebuild.
2. Rick Han leads a retooling.
3. You find another team/another sport to cheer for.

These are the orders of leader Reindsorf. No other options are acceptable. 

We thought the same thing with La Russa.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

We thought the same thing with La Russa.

I 100% believe that if Tony LaRussa was medically capable of managing the White Sox he would be managing the White Sox right now, and I also believe they'd be a couple games worse than they are right now because his choices go beyond baffling to the point of "doing stupid things because I have to prove I'm smarter than everyone else". 

What exactly knocked him out last year, something internal or a continued problem with substances, I don't know, but he'd be here right now if it wasn't for that.

[chitownsportsfan]

1 hour ago, sin city sox fan said:

This season has been disappointing....no doubt about it.  However, I still believe in the talent.  I think the coaching is the problem.  Blow up the staff and bring in a new manager, hitting coach, and pitching coach.  Bad leadership is a recipe for disaster no matter how good the team is and we have a clown show leading our team.

Coaching is a problem, but you can't make chicken salad out of chicken s%*#. A few of us noted that preseason, this team was projected by most systems for around 78-82 wins. Players that were supposed to push the Sox towards 90, including Tim Anderson, Eloy, Moncada, Vaughn, Lynn and a few others are simply no longer stars, or even average regulars. Anderson himself is the difference between 85 wins and 80 given he's gone from a reliable 3-4 WAR player to negative.

Hahn has done a horrible job of recognizing and responding to true talent dropoffs and has made short sided trades (Lynn for Dunning, the whole Madrigal process) that have gutted what should have been new talent coming into their prime as others declined. He further failed in FA to even paper over 2nd base, and it's hard to give him much credit for giving Benintendi a poison pill type contract just to find an average regular in LF.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

• I definitely am fully on board to trade Giolito, Kelly, Lopez, Middleton and Graveman.  Not sure you could get anything for Lynn, Clevinger and Grandal, but I'd certainly be fine moving them too.  I've been a big Yaz supporter (and I know you have too, CWS), and he was a great signing at the time, but man its painful to watch him catch.  Sox absolutely need to acquire someone who can play catcher that isn't named Seby Zavala.   
• I just don't see the point in trading TA right now.  You're talking nickel on the dollar right now.  I said it about Giolito when many were down on him, but walk season improvements are a real thing.  TA isn't Giolito level focused, but that man cares deeply about his next payday.  If he keeps playing like he is, his next payday is going to be quite paltry.  TA is going to improve, but 2023 may very well be a lost season. Bring him back in 24, watch the bounceback, and then move him next summer if the Sox suck again, and start the Colson era. Edit: I just came back to say fu*k you, Hanser. 
• Ehh, I like Elvis.  Dude isn't very good anymore and shouldn't be playing everyday and I am all for giving those reps to Sosa, Romy, Remillard, JRod, Ramos,  etc., but assuming you cannot get a live arm pensman to give a trial to for the next few months for him, I'd keep Elvis around.
• Moncada is already IL'd, and likely will be for some time.  So that one is done.
• AV isn't getting demoted, but man, he's been mostly brutal.  Even just 3 weeks in the minors gets us a year of control back, so I am all for it, but 0% chance the Sox actually do that.
• Colas should be here anyday, I would imagine.  Gregor mentioned it last night too, and I would guess that he wasn't just spitballing.  Oscar has (finally) started to heat up a bit in AAA, and boy am I sick of watching the Gavin Sheets/Clint Frazier platoon.  Send Frazier to the moon, please. Never seen a guy have more consistently decent at bats that end in absolutely nothing, especially when he's had the platoon advantage the majority of the time (referring to Frazier here).  He's honestly hit the ball hard like 5x the whole season.  Where is that power?  
• I'd actually look to trade Santos.  Dude is filthy, but always sell high on relievers.  Dudes arm could fall off, or his control could go at any moment.  I'd be shocked if he turns into a legit back of the pen guy for the next half decade.  If you can get a legit SP prospect for him from a cheap team desperate for pen help, I'd trade him all day. 

I wouldn’t just move Tim to move him, which probably makes the whole concept unlikely but I’d at least explore his value this deadline.

Regarding Elvis, I just don’t see a reason to keep him.  Give Sosa & Romy all that playing time and see what you have.  Andrus has been terrible offensively as many of us were expecting.

As for Santos, I 100% agree on selling high on relievers, but I also don’t think you trade a young controllable reliever like him at the deadline (don’t think you’ll recoup full value).  If he can be the closer over the second, he could be a piece we’re able to sell for something very useful and hopefully it’s a new GM making that deal.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Coaching is a problem, but you can't make chicken salad out of chicken s%*#. A few of us noted that preseason, this team was projected by most systems for around 78-82 wins. Players that were supposed to push the Sox towards 90, including Tim Anderson, Eloy, Moncada, Vaughn, Lynn and a few others are simply no longer stars, or even average regulars. Anderson himself is the difference between 85 wins and 80 given he's gone from a reliable 3-4 WAR player to negative.

Hahn has done a horrible job of recognizing and responding to true talent dropoffs and has made short sided trades (Lynn for Dunning, the whole Madrigal process) that have gutted what should have been new talent coming into their prime as others declined. He further failed in FA to even paper over 2nd base, and it's hard to give him much credit for giving Benintendi a poison pill type contract just to find an average regular in LF.

Worth noting that ZiPS had the White Sox at 74-88, 14 games under .500, and they're right on track for that kind of a finish?

PECOTA had them at 77.7 wins. 

[Snopek]

1 hour ago, sin city sox fan said:

This season has been disappointing....no doubt about it.  However, I still believe in the talent.  I think the coaching is the problem.  Blow up the staff and bring in a new manager, hitting coach, and pitching coach.  Bad leadership is a recipe for disaster no matter how good the team is and we have a clown show leading our team.

How many different coaching staffs do these players have to fail with before they get some of the blame?

[elrockinMT]

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

In terms of actions, here’s what I’d like to see happen immediately:

• Trade all rental-ish type players: Gioltio, Lynn, Clevinger, Graveman, Kelly, Lopez, Middleton, & Grandal
• Seriously explore a Tim Anderson trade and see if you can get 75% on the dollar (probably unlikely, but worth looking into)
• Release Andrus and give Sosa or Romy the 2B job the rest of the way
• DL Moncada for an extended period of time and let Burger handle 3B
• Demote Vaughn to Charlotte temporarily (have him focus on elevating the ball while clawing back a year of control) and let Eloy / Sheets cover 1B/DH
• Call up Colas and let him play RF the rest of the way even if he struggles
• Make Santos the closer and see if we can turn into a valuable asset
• Call up any arms with a pulse and be prepared for routine blowouts

After the trade deadline, fire Rick Hahn (I’d do now if possible) and make KW interim GM for a couple of months.  Pursue a GM from a quality organization in the off-season and offer him a President of Baseball Ops title.  Mike Chernoff would be my top target.  Once a replacement is had, force KW to resign and then clean fucking house.  Getz, Haber, KW Jr. etc should all go (Paddy can stay for now).  Grifol and his entire coaching staff should also go.  Start afresh with a new GM and manager selected by the new front office.  Immediately start modernizing the scouting, player development, and conditioning functions.  Don’t rush things by drafting high floor college players.  Let this thing bottom out and hope you can string together several drafts of high ceiling talent.  Build this organization the right way from the bottom up and hope the end product is a team can regularly dominate the worst division in major sports.  This is really not that hard if we are willing to go external and do things the right way.

If you do these things you suggest how do we expect any improvement in our standing and team performance? We have good players they just need to perform better. I think that’s possible 

[Chicago White Sox]

To build off this, does anyone see a path to competing in 2024?  How do you put together a competent pitching staff, add a starting catcher, and fix the general shittiness of the offense in one offseason?  Even with a new GM, that’s too tall of a task to address.  IMO, this is the last season of the competitive window and that’s using the term very loosely.

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, elrockinMT said:

If you do these things you suggest how do we expect any improvement in our standing and team performance? We have good players they just need to perform better. I think that’s possible 

I think we need to rebuild.  The offense has proven it is incredibly flawed and I don’t see enough improvement being possible to change our outlook.

[The Mighty Mite]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Worth noting that ZiPS had the White Sox at 74-88, 14 games under .500, and they're right on track for that kind of a finish?

PECOTA had them at 77.7 wins. 

Right now on pace for 69-93.

[Balta1701]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

To build off this, does anyone see a path to competing in 2024?  How do you put together a competent pitching staff, add a starting catcher, and fix the general shittiness of the offense in one offseason?  Even with a new GM, that’s too tall of a task to address.  IMO, this is the last season of the competitive window and that’s using the term very loosely.

The only path to competing requires the White Sox to sign multiple pitchers to Clevinger and Cueto like deals, at least 3 to 4 of them, and have them all work out at least as well as Cueto did. That could just get them to tread water, 10 games below .500 again. They would then need an improved performance from the offense and defense "Somehow", because a team at the bottom of the league in those categories is going to stay at the bottom of the league. Finally, they would need no team to run away with the AL Central or wild card, as even by luck it is tough to see them getting to 90 wins.

They have to do all of this while spending something like $40 million or less, assuming they can get to this years' payroll again. If they have to do a payroll cut (and they have a drop of more than 4000 tickets sold per game compared to 2022 so far this year), they will have less to spend than that. 

[chitownsportsfan]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Worth noting that ZiPS had the White Sox at 74-88, 14 games under .500, and they're right on track for that kind of a finish?

PECOTA had them at 77.7 wins. 

Right, I think I undersold it a bit. Maybe the most optimistic projections had the Sox at 80 if you fudged some games played projections.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

League average slashline is at .245/.316/.406

Vaughn is .240/.329/.439

He’s a major leaguer at this point, he’s got to work it out in the majors. Nothing he can do at AAA he can’t do here, and since the Sox aren’t competitive there is no reason not to let him do it

 

The reason would be he's been very disappointing as a 3rd overall pick and three weeks in the minors would get a year of control back.  But the Sox are never doing it.