Blow it the F Up

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

TBH, I think we have to trade Cease in the off-season and potentially Robert as well.  Otherwise, I think we’re going to see a lot 3rd place AL Central finishes for the foreseeable future, which is both super embarrassing and fulfilling to me at all.  Scorched-earth rebuild is likely needed and Cease / Robert are the only two who can really move the needle.  It sucks obviously, but so does being mired in mediocrity while in the worst division in professional sports.

I don't know what the next month will look like for Cease, but I will definitely listen on him if I were to get an offer with a strong return. The potential of having a guy for 3 postseason runs instead of 2 should make him far more valuable, and in the offseason teams needing pitching will be more likely to just splurge on a free agent like Giolito rather than make a big trade. 

Robert is more challenging. He is about to make his first all start team, and he is under control for 4.5 years! A team trading for him right now would be acquiring the guy for up to 5 postseason runs. The value of this player is so high that it's hard to fathom anyone actually putting the price on the table he would require. The Juan Soto trade, for example, was for a guy who would be under Padres control for 1.5 years, only 2 postseason runs, and he returned several top 100 prospects along with guys who were recent dropouts/graduates from the top 100 and a recent draftee.

Robert isn't on Soto's level, but he's cheaper and under control for so ungodly long. Could anyone imagine what "twice Juan Soto's cost to the Padres" would look like on paper? We're talking about what, 4 top 100 prospects and more beyond that? 

The cost for Robert is so high based on the years of control that it is difficult to see anyone meeting it. Most teams simply can't. The handful who have that amount of talent probably wouldn't do so.

[SoCalChiSox]

45 minutes ago, Saufley said:

Heads SHOULD roll! But they won't.

Nightengale has sort of suggested that FO and managers heads will roll, but ofcourse that doesn't do much to solve the biggest issue which is JR. 

[pcq]

2 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

What's the league average slashline for 1B?

AV might be a slightly above par 1B overall but it sounds debatable. He might be pressing at the plate a bit.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

As it usually is most years. 

 

That is not true. You are assuming all left handed 1B get platooned. The fact is the top LH 1B do not get platooned.

LH 1B

                                 GM    AB
Matt Olson              78   300
Freddie Freeman    77   305
Nathaniel Lowe       77   304
Anthony Rizzo          72   270
LaMonte Wade Jr.    70   226
Josh Naylor               69   254
Vin Pasquantino       61   231

versus
Andrew Vaughn        78   287

 

I literally used the word “some”…?‍♂️

[The Kids Can Play]

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

TBH, I think we have to trade Cease in the off-season and potentially Robert as well.  Otherwise, I think we’re going to see a lot 3rd place AL Central finishes for the foreseeable future, which is both super embarrassing and fulfilling to me at all.  Scorched-earth rebuild is likely needed and Cease / Robert are the only two who can really move the needle.  It sucks obviously, but so does being mired in mediocrity while in the worst division in professional sports.

I personally would not trade Cease, but if the right trade could be so impossible to pass up, then yes it should be considered. I agree you would get a decent haul for him. However once you get rid of him, you have to find another Cease. If Cease goes to a team with a good pitching coach and a team that can produce runs like the top four teams in the Rangers, Rays, Braves and Dodgers...Cease will be a dominant pitcher. 

An absolute hard NO on Robert. He is a generational talent. You are not going to find another Robert who is a true 5-Tool player that has his power, speed, and unmatched CF defensive ability. It's great to blow up the team, but you have to keep some top players to build around. Remember he is only 25 years old. I've said this before in here, if you ever surround Robert with guys who get on base in front of him and have dangerous hitters behind him....you are looking at a perennial MVP player, provided he stays healthy. The Roberts of the world don't come around that easily, even in the great organizations who scout, draft and develop well. 

[baseball_gal_aly]

You kinda have to trade Cease now. 

I think you wait on Robert and Kopech to repeat success. I think other teams might be wary of a 2019 Moncada esque mirage from Robert and I'd want to see him do it again before giving up a Juan Soto package for him if I were another team. You start talking about Robert and Kopech at the 2024 TDL and you start talking about Cease now. 

All 3 should be traded. 

[T R U]

3 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I personally would not trade Cease, but if the right trade could be so impossible to pass up, then yes it should be considered. I agree you would get a decent haul for him. However once you get rid of him, you have to find another Cease. If Cease goes to a team with a good pitching coach and a team that can produce runs like the top four teams in the Rangers, Rays, Braves and Dodgers...Cease will be a dominant pitcher. 

An absolute hard NO on Robert. He is a generational talent. You are not going to find another Robert who is a true 5-Tool player that has his power, speed, and unmatched CF defensive ability. It's great to blow up the team, but you have to keep some top players to build around. Remember he is only 25 years old. I've said this before in here, if you ever surround Robert with guys who get on base in front of him and have dangerous hitters behind him....you are looking at a perennial MVP player, provided he stays healthy. The Roberts of the world don't come around that easily, even in the great organizations who scout, draft and develop well. 

If you go full tear it down rebuild then you have to trade Cease and Robert.

What good does Luis Robert do the White Sox if he is a star player on a rebuilding team for the next 3-4 years? He is more valuable to us on someone else's team in this scenario.

[baseball_gal_aly]

I think a legit question is if you pick up Anderson's option for next year or not. This is 2 years in a row of a major power outage for him. 

[Tony]

Could you even imagine that happening here? 

[ChiSox59]

14 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said:

You kinda have to trade Cease now. 

I think you wait on Robert and Kopech to repeat success. I think other teams might be wary of a 2019 Moncada esque mirage from Robert and I'd want to see him do it again before giving up a Juan Soto package for him if I were another team. You start talking about Robert and Kopech at the 2024 TDL and you start talking about Cease now. 

All 3 should be traded. 

2023 mirage?  Robert is a career 128 wRC+ hitter that plays GG caliber CF.  There is no mirage - Robert was even better offensively in 2021.  He's just quite simply one of the very best players in the game, that just so happens to be extremely streaky (and has had his injury issues). s%*# even this season with a 143 wRC+, he's had multiple stints of 10+ games looking completely helpless at the plate.  He's that good. 

If the Sox made Robert available (they won't), every team in baseball would be interested.  

[Chicago White Sox]

19 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I personally would not trade Cease, but if the right trade could be so impossible to pass up, then yes it should be considered. I agree you would get a decent haul for him. However once you get rid of him, you have to find another Cease. If Cease goes to a team with a good pitching coach and a team that can produce runs like the top four teams in the Rangers, Rays, Braves and Dodgers...Cease will be a dominant pitcher. 

An absolute hard NO on Robert. He is a generational talent. You are not going to find another Robert who is a true 5-Tool player that has his power, speed, and unmatched CF defensive ability. It's great to blow up the team, but you have to keep some top players to build around. Remember he is only 25 years old. I've said this before in here, if you ever surround Robert with guys who get on base in front of him and have dangerous hitters behind him....you are looking at a perennial MVP player, provided he stays healthy. The Roberts of the world don't come around that easily, even in the great organizations who scout, draft and develop well. 

I don’t think we have a choice on Cease because we‘re going to lose him before we can put a competitive roster again.  I don’t disagree with your general view on Robert, but at a bare minimum we got to explore what someone would be willing to give up for him.  Perhaps it won’t be enough to Balta’s point, but with his years of control he might be able to land a transformational package.  If not, he’s a hold for now, but I truly believe 2024 & 2025 are going to be super ugly given the the complete lack of pitching in the upper levels.

[ChiSox59]

15 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said:

I think a legit question is if you pick up Anderson's option for next year or not. This is 2 years in a row of a major power outage for him. 

Its not really a legit question though.  Look at what SS's signed for last season, and then look at the 2024 FA SS market.  Even if TA continues his woeful season, the option is still an easy call to pick up. 

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Its not really a legit question though.  Look at what SS's signed for last season, and then look at the 2024 FA SS market.  Even if TA continues his woeful season, the option is still an easy call to pick up. 

Yeah, I'd easily pick it up and listen to offers on him. If you don't like any offers, maybe you get a TA that is highly motivated for his next pay day.

[zisk]

Fire all bosses and bring in either Dallas Green or Jim Fregosi to help JR pick the next 

Executive VP of baseball operations. :}

[The Kids Can Play]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I don’t think we have a choice on Cease because we‘re going to lose him before we can put a competitive roster again.  I don’t disagree with your general view on Robert, but at a bare minimum we got to explore what someone would be willing to give up for him.  Perhaps it won’t be enough to Balta’s point, but with his years of control he might be able to land a transformational package.  If not, he’s a hold for now, but I truly believe 2024 & 2025 are going to be super ugly given the the complete lack of pitching in the upper levels.

There is no doubt Cease and Robert will bring a huge haul. The problem is, it can't be Hahn or even Kenny making those trades. I don't believe they would get back the max best haul.

I still think it would be a grave mistake getting rid of Robert. No matter how big the haul, there is no guarantee it will pan out. The Roberts of the world just don't come around that often. I truly believe he is just scratching the surface of how great he will eventually become.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Its not really a legit question though.  Look at what SS's signed for last season, and then look at the 2024 FA SS market.  Even if TA continues his woeful season, the option is still an easy call to pick up. 

If there is a significant payroll cut coming next year again, then although not picking up the option seems unwise, moving him at the deadline this year just to get the money off of the 2024 payroll and get something in return would be part of my plan if I wrote one.

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If there is a significant payroll cut coming next year again, then although not picking up the option seems unwise, moving him at the deadline this year just to get the money off of the 2024 payroll and get something in return would be part of my plan if I wrote one.

If JR is worried about 2024 payroll, trade Graveman and Kelly to the highest bidder the next month.  Trade Liam if he comes back healthy, or buy him out if injury is longer term and he's due $1.5M over 10 years instead of $15 in 2024.  You can save ~$35M just on just those three.  

Not picking up TA's option to save $14M would be insane, even if he continues to suck.   As noted earlier, me thinks 2024 is going to bring a very determined TA, whether that is here or elsewhere.  Trading him now would be super silly unless someone is willing to pay up.  TA is also very obviously hurt.  Hanser totally fucked his knee - he changed his batting stance and is just totally screwed up right now.  Would imagine that stuff could get cleaned up over the winter. 

[Lip Man 1]

While I get the (deserved) reservations regarding this front office making deals and being in charge of another rebuild (although you can bet money the Sox won't call it that) you simply have to do it.

This current group for whatever reason or reasons simply hasn't gotten it done.

Trying to run it back with the same bunch is insane...there is enough of a track record now to say that the odds of something dramatically changing are pretty small.  

[baseball_gal_aly]

8 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

If JR is worried about 2024 payroll, trade Graveman and Kelly to the highest bidder the next month.  Trade Liam if he comes back healthy, or buy him out if injury is longer term and he's due $1.5M over 10 years instead of $15 in 2024.  You can save ~$35M just on just those three.  

Not picking up TA's option to save $14M would be insane, even if he continues to suck.   As noted earlier, me thinks 2024 is going to bring a very determined TA, whether that is here or elsewhere.  Trading him now would be super silly unless someone is willing to pay up.  TA is also very obviously hurt.  Hanser totally fucked his knee - he changed his batting stance and is just totally screwed up right now.  Would imagine that stuff could get cleaned up over the winter. 

Anderson is so bad right now though. He's Alcides Escobar. 

I guess you could pick it up and hope for a better season but idk.

I might be being a Negative Nancy but I think Anderson might be done being a productive player. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by baseballgalaly

[Chicago White Sox]

15 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

There is no doubt Cease and Robert will bring a huge haul. The problem is, it can't be Hahn or even Kenny making those trades. I don't believe they would get back the max best haul.

I still think it would be a grave mistake getting rid of Robert. No matter how big the haul, there is no guarantee it will pan out. The Roberts of the world just don't come around that often. I truly believe he is just scratching the surface of how great he will eventually become.

100% agree that Rick or KW can’t be afforded to make those trades.  And I fully agree that trading Robert would both suck and be a huge risk, but the question will be whether you can win with him in the near-term and if a godfather package can be attained.

[baseball_gal_aly]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

100% agree that Rick or KW can’t be afforded to make those trades.  And I fully agree that trading Robert would both suck and be a huge risk, but the question will be whether you can win with him in the near-term and if a godfather package can be attained.

I don't see any path to contention between the MLB roster and the minors before Robert's contract with the Sox is up. 

 

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said:

Anderson is so bad right now though. He's Alcides Escobar. 

I guess you could pick it up and hope for a better season but idk.

If TA were a FA, he would 100% beat 1/$14M.  That is all that matters.  

He's also hurt.  And has always been much better than this.  Don't get me wrong, TA has been dreadful.  I would just IL him for a couple weeks myself and see if he comes back refreshed.  But picking up that option really isn't even a decision. 

[Southwest Sider]

We are in the worst case scenario.

-Our previous leader Abreu couldn't wait to leave, 3 years after saying hed sign pretty much any contract to stay.

-Our GM who has said would quit if he thought he wasnt the guy for the job, clearly still thinks hes the guy for the job. Ownership too loyal to cut the cord. KW likely has checked out and is picking up free paychecks for his title, reaping rewards of overly loyal ownership.

- Managerial changes too often. I honestly can't get mad at Grifol. He may stink, but the problems go far deeper than him.

-Rotten clubhouse that does not win and lose together or seemingly take ownership of the fate of this franchise. Is this TAs fault? It does not seem that he is a natural born leader and couple that with the TLR years, our clubhouse is just toxic to winning at this point. Someone tried to have some fun though and made that cool HR costume. 

-Our best contract ever given is to basically another Adam Eaton. Lose out or dont even try for the actual top talent.

- Publicly telling one of your best pitchers you are not going to keep him or even try. Yes he may have left anyway but imagine the message it sends to the rest of the league. Why play for us? Especially if you are a union rep... look at how miserable AJ Pollack was here. 

- During all of the bad years, save for the LaRoche drama, I could usually say that I really like the players and know they try hard. I cannot say the same for this group. They look miserable and unfun.

- We are stuck with terrible, antiquated ownership that has allowed this toxic situation to happen. Theres literally nothing we can do except wait it out, whatever it is, and I hope it ends with someone not named Reinsdorf running the show. 

Until then frankly enjoy a team that gives a s%*#. The Ray's are a nice neutral team to us with no hatred or rivalry but a great organization who can bring actual enjoyable baseball to people. Or be like me and partake in other hobbies or sources of entertainment. 

I hate this franchise. Why am I still here?

 

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, South Sider said:

 

- Publicly telling one of your best pitchers you are not going to keep him or even try. Yes he may have left anyway but imagine the message it sends to the rest of the league. Why play for us? Especially if you are a union rep... look at how miserable AJ Pollack was here. 

 

 

Just out of curiosity, when the did the Sox release a memo stating they had no interest in retaining Giolito?  I must have missed it because I keep seeing people say this.

FWIW, I don't think there is any chance to Sox resign Lucas - and frankly, not really sure they should, but they've never publicly stated anything about his FA pursuits to my knowledge. 

The Sox need to trade Lucas.  They can probably get some desperate team to give up a close to the majors back-end top 100 SP prospect.  That is exactly what they need with just Cease and Kopech currently penciled into 2024 rotation. 

[oldsox]

I smell a QO for Gio.