Blow it the F Up

[T R U]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Honestly, anything is possible with this org, but I do think Jerry is probably losing patience with Hahn.  Supposedly we lost a ton of money last year and that was before the largest attendance drop in baseball.  And if there is one thing Jerry hates it’s losing money.  Beyond that, Hahn is finally running out of scapegoats.  He can’t make his handed picked manager the fall guy for this fiasco of a season.  For the first time in 10 years, I actually think a change at GM is possible.  But to your point, will Jerry do an exhaustive search and hire a top talent from outside the organization or simply just elevate Chris Getz?  Even if with a GM change we may end being in the same basic position.  Just got to hope spending $180M on a 4th place product convinces Jerry the status quo isn’t working and structural changes are needed to fix this organization.

Hey, just because you finished in 4th place doesn't mean you had a bad season.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, T R U said:

Hey, just because you finished in 4th place doesn't mean you had a bad season.

Lol…I know Jerry said this, but hopefully he feels differently as a 87 year old who just spent close to $200M for said 4th place finish.  If not, then only Father Time will fix this franchise.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Honestly, anything is possible with this org, but I do think Jerry is probably losing patience with Hahn.  Supposedly we lost a ton of money last year and that was before the largest attendance drop in baseball.  And if there is one thing Jerry hates it’s losing money.  Beyond that, Hahn is finally running out of scapegoats.  He can’t make his handed picked manager the fall guy for this fiasco of a season.  For the first time in 10 years, I actually think a change at GM is possible.  But to your point, will Jerry do an exhaustive search and hire a top talent from outside the organization or simply just elevate Chris Getz?  Even if with a GM change we may end being in the same basic position.  Just got to hope spending $180M on a 4th place product convinces Jerry the status quo isn’t working and structural changes are needed to fix this organization.

I struggle to believe that Jerry is losing patience with Hahn, I really think there's a cadre of yes-men who keep telling the boss he's doing a great job. 

However, I will continue to note that it is possible to find GMs who do better than this even in the White Sox's organization. Kenny Williams, for example, was better than this. He wasn't the best GM in the world, but he was better than where we are now. Just an improvement could be enough to turn this team from a flop to a team regularly making playoff appearances. It is possible that a move that appears to be lateral or not an improvement on paper will actually be better than this. It cannot hurt to try.

[baseball_gal_aly]

I mostly have the games on for background noise. I've been a diehard since 2000 and I never thought I'd be so apathetic about the Sox and baseball in general. It kinda started for me in 2021 when I realized they weren't good enough to do anything but appear in the playoffs and it's been just downhill from there. I'm losing interest in baseball because of it. I just loved the Sox. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by baseballgalaly

[Kyyle23]

17 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol…I know Jerry said this, but hopefully he feels differently as a 87 year old who just spent close to $200M for said 4th place finish.  If not, then only Father Time will fix this franchise.

At least Illitch died blowing all his money on the Tigers World Series attempts, and not half in half out bullshit.  

[Saufley]

20 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said:

I mostly have the games on for background noise. I've been a diehard since 2000 and I never thought I'd be so apathetic about the Sox and baseball in general. It kinda started for me in 2021 when I realized they weren't good enough to do anything but appear in the playoffs and it's been just downhill from there. I'm losing interest in baseball because of it. I just loved the Sox. 

Just think how you'd feel if you were a fan who watched the Sox in the 1959 World Series!

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

At least Illitch died blowing all his money on the Tigers World Series attempts, and not half in half out bullshit.  

Fully agree.  Pizza Man was a true legend.  I hope one day we experience an owner like that.

[Lip Man 1]

29 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Honestly, anything is possible with this org, but I do think Jerry is probably losing patience with Hahn.  Supposedly we lost a ton of money last year and that was before the largest attendance drop in baseball.  And if there is one thing Jerry hates it’s losing money.  Beyond that, Hahn is finally running out of scapegoats.  He can’t make his handed picked manager the fall guy for this fiasco of a season.  For the first time in 10 years, I actually think a change at GM is possible.  But to your point, will Jerry do an exhaustive search and hire a top talent from outside the organization or simply just elevate Chris Getz?  Even if with a GM change we may end being in the same basic position.  Just got to hope spending $180M on a 4th place product convinces Jerry the status quo isn’t working and structural changes are needed to fix this organization.

I'll believe the White Sox are losing money when they open their books and let them be examined by an accounting specialist. 

MLB is now a 10 billion dollar a year industry, the income being generated by domestic and international sources has never been higher.

That's part of the issue...as long as JR is sound financially regardless of the won/loss record why should he even care anymore...especially at his age.  

[Chicago White Sox]

26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I struggle to believe that Jerry is losing patience with Hahn, I really think there's a cadre of yes-men who keep telling the boss he's doing a great job. 

However, I will continue to note that it is possible to find GMs who do better than this even in the White Sox's organization. Kenny Williams, for example, was better than this. He wasn't the best GM in the world, but he was better than where we are now. Just an improvement could be enough to turn this team from a flop to a team regularly making playoff appearances. It is possible that a move that appears to be lateral or not an improvement on paper will actually be better than this. It cannot hurt to try.

Jerry is a smart guy, just insanely loyal.  At some point, he can’t keep blaming the players and the coaches for our shortfalls.  This was Hahn’s year to prove it was all Tony’s fault and as we are seeing the rot goes much deeper.  Unless the Sox get hot and luck their way into the playoffs, I think Jerry will make a change.  But if he’s unwilling to truly blow things up, it’s more likely Getz gets a chance as GM and is asked to retool on the fly.  That I could see.  I just think there is too much blood in the water amongst the fan base for Rick to get another year.

[The Mighty Mite]

8 minutes ago, Saufley said:

Just think how you'd feel if you were a fan who watched the Sox in the 1959 World Series!

I’m one of those and it’s really tough right now watching this team, you would think that when these guys are at bat they might try something different. I also watch most of the Rays games and the approach while at bat with these two teams is like the difference between night and day. I know they have been working on hitting the ball in the air more but I think there is a lot more wrong  than just that as evidenced by having the lowest OBP in MLB, of course there’s the possibility that our players are just plain lousy and we can’t expect much more than what we are seeing.

Edited June 28, 2023 by The Mighty Mite

[Chicago White Sox]

4 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I'll believe the White Sox are losing money when they open their books and let them be examined by an accounting specialist. 

MLB is now a 10 billion dollar a year industry, the income being generated by domestic and international sources has never been higher.

That's part of the issue...as long as JR is sound financially regardless of the won/loss record why should he even care anymore...especially at his age.  

Jerry wants to win.  I literally despise him as our owner, but I don’t believe he’s ok with 2nd to 4th place finishes year after year.  The problem is he will only attempt to win in his own unique way, which requires being fiscally responsible and risk adverse.  And a complete lack of accountability with his front office has caused our organization to fall behind the times.

KW was actually a pretty good GM prior to the analytics revolution taking ahold of the game because he could scout and was willing to take some risks.  But with analytics and other modern player development / scouting processes in place now, we simply can’t catch-up because our front lacks any real vision and is way too insular.

Regardless, I don’t think Jerry is ok with cashing in checks until he leaves this world.  At his age, the desire to win should be higher than ever, which is evident by top 10 payrolls the past two years.  Unfortunately Rick just spent the funds in a horribly inefficient fashion.

[kitekrazy]

Blow it all up is only an emotional response.

Doing so just means decades of Royals and A's bad.

I have no trust in scouting and developing.

They don't hold any coaching accountable.

Former player syndrome which fans are addicted to doesn't work.

Their managerial hires are like dumpster dives or the guy they always wanted that's well past their prime.

I doubt Grifol was really Hahn's choice. But it is the habit of getting people from habitually losing organizations. I think it was more of a budget choice.

I don't think I can be a fan of this team much longer.  Blow it all up will solve that.

[kitekrazy]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Jerry wants to win.  I literally despise him as our owner, but I don’t believe he’s ok with 2nd to 4th place finishes year after year.  The problem is he will only attempt to win in his own unique way, which requires being fiscally responsible and risk adverse.  And a complete lack of accountability with his front office has caused our organization to fall behind the times.

KW was actually a pretty good GM prior to the analytics revolution taking ahold of the game because he could scout and was willing to take some risks.  But with analytics and other modern player development / scouting processes in place now, we simply can’t catch-up because our front lacks any real vision and is way too insular.

Regardless, I don’t think Jerry is ok with cashing in checks until he leaves this world.  At his age, the desire to win should be higher than ever, which is evident by top 10 payrolls the past two years.  Unfortunately Rick just spent the funds in a horribly inefficient fashion.

Only if you use the Sox yardstick.  Drafting and development was just as bad.

[Lip Man 1]

18 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Jerry wants to win.  I literally despise him as our owner, but I don’t believe he’s ok with 2nd to 4th place finishes year after year.  The problem is he will only attempt to win in his own unique way, which requires being fiscally responsible and risk adverse.  And a complete lack of accountability with his front office has caused our organization to fall behind the times.

KW was actually a pretty good GM prior to the analytics revolution taking ahold of the game because he could scout and was willing to take some risks.  But with analytics and other modern player development / scouting processes in place now, we simply can’t catch-up because our front lacks any real vision and is way too insular.

Regardless, I don’t think Jerry is ok with cashing in checks until he leaves this world.  At his age, the desire to win should be higher than ever, which is evident by top 10 payrolls the past two years.  Unfortunately Rick just spent the funds in a horribly inefficient fashion.

I agree with you that he wants to win his way and have stated that for many years but he just recently said about a month ago that not finishing first doesn't mean you had a bad season:

"Sports is a business of failure but the fact that you finish second or third or fourth it doesn’t mean you had a bad year."- jerry Reinsdorf May 1, 2023. 

 

 

[T R U]

7 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I agree with you that he wants to win his way and have stated that for many years but he just recently said about a month ago that not finishing first doesn't mean you had a bad season:

"Sports is a business of failure but the fact that you finish second or third or fourth it doesn’t mean you had a bad year."- jerry Reinsdorf May 1, 2023. 

 

 

Yep, it is a business. And to be perfectly honest, he's right in that aspect. He owns a business, and if that business makes money then yeah, I guess its not a bad year if you just look at it from a business standpoint.

[SCCWS]

30 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I'll believe the White Sox are losing money when they open their books and let them be examined by an accounting specialist. 

MLB is now a 10 billion dollar a year industry, the income being generated by domestic and international sources has never been higher.

That's part of the issue...as long as JR is sound financially regardless of the won/loss record why should he even care anymore...especially at his age.  

I think that could be the story.  If a team is sound financially, some owners could care less about the record. Not all because some owners want success on the field as way.  But maybe JR is happy to keep getting the checks

[Chicago White Sox]

15 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

Only if you use the Sox yardstick.  Drafting and development was just as bad.

Got to disagree here.  Our draft strategy was very questionable at times (the Broadway / McCulloch picks were terrible) but part of that was the result of Jerry’s refusal to go over slot.  I think our player develop function was probably average or slightly below.  It was simply a different time with much higher bust rates unfortunately. But our strength under KW was pro scouting.  The dude and his staff were able to find diamonds in the rough and he was able to build multiple competitive teams that way.  He wasn’t a great GM by any means, but he was leagues better than Hahn.

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

17 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I agree with you that he wants to win his way and have stated that for many years but he just recently said about a month ago that not finishing first doesn't mean you had a bad season:

"Sports is a business of failure but the fact that you finish second or third or fourth it doesn’t mean you had a bad year."- jerry Reinsdorf May 1, 2023. 

 

 

I think context is needed there.  The Sox had a great season in 2006 and finished second, but unfortunately the pitching staff wore out and the playoff format at the time screwed us over.  Finishing 4th in the worst division in pro sports despite spending $180M is a failure no matter how you slice it, unless…it leads to the firing of Rick Hahn.  Then every single loss was worth it.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

22 hours ago, zisk said:

Fire all bosses and bring in either Dallas Green or Jim Fregosi to help JR pick the next 

Executive VP of baseball operations. :}

From beyond the Grave ?

[pcq]

Yet they still can't seem to shake us.

[soxfaninfl]

Reading most of these responses, I am still struck by the simple question: blow it up to what???? In this system???? The only thing the current Sox system does well is destroy talent… until that changes, there really are no answers.

The real question is why all this talent has regressed. Need to answer that dilemma first.

[baseball_gal_aly]

My problem with the Sox is that their scouting, development and player improvement infrastructure has to be the worst in baseball. 

I can't get over it. Nothing will change until they invest properly in those departments. If they did, Jerry's payroll restrictions wouldn't be a big issue. They'd be able to identify talent that fits within their budget. If the Rays can do it, anyone can. 

 

And oh, they still don't know the value of getting on base from an offensive standpoint. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by baseballgalaly

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

20 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Every year I come here after these projections are released, fans are incensed at how low the team overall and several individuals are ranked, a mix of believing players will reach the highest range of performance and games played projections. Baseball Prospectus sucks, Fangraphs suck, Vegas sucks, etc. No, the White Sox (and many other teams) suck.

Some of these ideas are laughable. Promote Colas? He has a few dozen games in AAA and needs a lot more work there before being completely overwhelmed at the ML level. The problem is these guys (Colas, Sosa, Rodriquez) were clearly rushed to fill the pathetic depth needs. The problem is not they weren't promoted fast enough. Colas played 7 games at the AAA level. And was promoted, and failed miserably. Ditto what they have done with Vaughn, Cease, Kopech.

"Jerry's chickens, have come home to roost."

You leave guys down to get more seasoning and those guys fail often too. Some guys brought up over and over and fail over and over until they actually don't. Everyone is different.  High draft picks fail and low picks succeed . So just as its hard to judge talent that will succeed its hard to know when to bring a guy up. Just because Colas was brought up after tearing up the minors the year before doesn't mean it was wrong just because he failed the 1st time.

These absolutes you think apply dont. How do we know Colas didnt get his head screwed up by the coaches who worked with him over the summer ? What happened to his power in AAA and why did it happen after working with our coaches ?

All these things are mysterious things that professional scouts and talent evaluatorss cant figure out SO what makes you think you have it all figured out ?

Saying a 25 yr old was brought up too early and that's why he failed is a copout. Any reason and multiple reasons could be why he failed. Instant success doesn't happen often in baseball and if it does then you might have a sophomore slump when pitchers adjust.

Baseball's a hard game. It isnt just how big and fast you are and based on pure athletic ability like other sports. Just one little tweak in your swing or stance /mechanics can unleash potential or send u spiraling down. No one can figure out why some very talented guys never make it and why less talented guys do otherwise making the right call on when someone should be brought up and where they fall in the draft would be easy.

[T R U]

23 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said:

My problem with the Sox is that their scouting, development and player improvement infrastructure has to be the worst in baseball. 

I can't get over it. Nothing will change until they invest properly in those departments. If they did, Jerry's payroll restrictions wouldn't be a big issue. They'd be able to identify talent that fits within their budget. If the Rays can do it, anyone can. 

 

And oh, they still don't know the value of getting on base from an offensive standpoint. 

If we had the scouting and development of Tampa Bay with the resources to have a $180 million payroll we would win this division every single year.

[The Kids Can Play]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Jerry is a smart guy, just insanely loyal.  At some point, he can’t keep blaming the players and the coaches for our shortfalls.  This was Hahn’s year to prove it was all Tony’s fault and as we are seeing the rot goes much deeper.  Unless the Sox get hot and luck their way into the playoffs, I think Jerry will make a change.  But if he’s unwilling to truly blow things up, it’s more likely Getz gets a chance as GM and is asked to retool on the fly.  That I could see.  I just think there is too much blood in the water amongst the fan base for Rick to get another year.

Regarding Jerry's loyalty, here are some comments I found from a Jun, 2017 article. More delusional comments from Jerry's perspective versus the actual reality.

https://www.sportsmockery.com/chicago-bulls/jerry-reinsdorf-loyal-bulls-front-office/

Last week, Bulls and White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf made a rare public appearance at the Intersport Brand Engagement Summit in Chicago. He gave a brief interview to Abraham D. Markour of Sports Business Daily and openly discussed his penchant for being loyal to his employees within both organizations.

Here is what Reinsdorf had to say:

“I TRY TO BE LOYAL ONLY TO PEOPLE WHO DESERVE THE LOYALTY. I HOPE I’M NOT LOYAL TO PEOPLE WHO DON’T DESERVE IT. WE TRY TO RUN THIS PLACE LIKE A FAMILY BUSINESS. IN OUR EMPLOYEE MANUAL, PEOPLE ARE DIRECTED TO CALL EVERYBODY BY THEIR FIRST NAMES, NO MR. OR MRS. WE WANT EVERYBODY TO FEEL FREE TO TALK TO EVERYBODY AND GO INTO ANY OFFICE TO TALK, ANY TIME THEY WANT. WHEN YOU DO THAT, YOU GET GOOD PEOPLE, YOU GET PEOPLE WHO LIKE THEIR JOBS. SO THE FACT THAT SOMEBODY MIGHT BE HERE 25 YEARS IS NOT BECAUSE I’M LOYAL, IT’S BECAUSE THAT PERSON IS DOING A GOOD JOB AND ENJOYS THE WORK ENVIRONMENT.” – JERRY REINSDORF