Blow it the F Up

[Rounding_Third]

I pity all the poor bastards with season tickets.  Think of all the beautiful ways to spend that cash.

It'll take at least a decade to rebuild from this colossal pile.  And that clock doesn't even start until every ownership/management office is emptied & scoured with bleach.  Who knows when that'll ever happen.

It'll probably take 5 years just to purge the stink.

[Soxfest]

Team deserves to have empty park rest of season 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Soxfest

[HOFHurt35]

To think Reinsdorf basically threw his own Buddy under the bus and hanging the entire failed 2022 season solely on LaRussa.  Meanwhile allowing the two clowns in charge to stick around.

 

Folks, sadly nothing is gonna change here until Reinsdorf passes.  It's that simple.  

 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, HOFHurt35 said:

To think Reinsdorf basically threw his own Buddy under the bus and hanging the entire failed 2022 season solely on LaRussa.  Meanwhile allowing the two clowns in charge to stick around.

Folks, sadly nothing is gonna change here until Reinsdorf passes.  It's that simple.  

I don't see this as how it went down. Tony clearly needed detox and or other treatments, looked and sounded like an actual functional human being for his long final press conference. Looked barely lucid and couldn't speak even for a minute or two pre/post game while managing.

That said, he and Hahn made terrible moves together beyond the Liam signing. AJ Hinch inherited a 47-114 team from 2019 (after the 2020 fake 60 game owner scam), identified the bad players and malcontents. Into the third season, they already have passed the White Sox at the half way mark, and have a better future roster, despite the fact they have 2/3 of the payroll, with close to half going to Cabrera and Baez ($54M of $122M).

Not saying the Sox would have won the World Series, but I am saying many of the reoccurring issues here would have been corrected or these players would have been traded, and there would have been much better off-seasons the past few years going with Hinch's input over signing guys Tony remembered from 10 years ago. The Sox likely would have had legitimate contention aspirations through this year and beyond with Hinch in charge vs. the Dinosaur and Crony Boy. 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by South Side Hit Men

[DFAthewave69420]

 Jerry Reinsdorf and co. have got to consider euthanizing themselves.  There are plenty of animal hospitals who will stick one down their forearm.

[Tony]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I don't see this as how it went down. Tony clearly needed detox and or other treatments, looked and sounded like an actual functional human being for his long final press conference. Looked barely lucid and couldn't speak even for a minute or two pre/post game while managing.

That said, he and Hahn made terrible moves together beyond the Liam signing. AJ Hinch inherited a 47-114 team from 2019 (after the 2020 fake 60 game owner scam), identified the bad players and malcontents. Into the third season, they already have passed the White Sox at the half way mark, and have a better future roster, despite the fact they have 2/3 of the payroll, with close to half going to Cabrera and Baez ($54M of $122M).

Not saying the Sox would have won the World Series, but I am saying many of the reoccurring issues here would have been corrected or these players would have been traded, and there would have been much better off-seasons the past few years going with Hinch's input over signing guys Tony remembered from 10 years ago. The Sox likely would have had legitimate contention aspirations through this year and beyond with Hinch in charge vs. the Dinosaur and Crony Boy. 

 

I call major bullshit here. There is FAR too long of a track record from Jerry-Kenny-Rick to tell us the same type of moves would have been made with AJ Hinch in the dugout, or Ozzie Guillen, or Tony La Russa for that matter. How much influencer on the roster do you believe Pedro has? The same “core” of Anderson-Moncada-Eloy-Grandal-Robert-Gio-Cease-Lynn-Kopech-Hendricks would all still be here, and unless Hinch convinces Jerry to start signing 300 million dollar players…the results wouldn’t be much difference. 
 

Who is sitting on the bench is far from the biggest problem in this organization. 

[South Side Hit Men]

24 minutes ago, Tony said:

I call major bullshit here. There is FAR too long of a track record from Jerry-Kenny-Rick to tell us the same type of moves would have been made with AJ Hinch in the dugout, or Ozzie Guillen, or Tony La Russa for that matter. How much influencer on the roster do you believe Pedro has? The same “core” of Anderson-Moncada-Eloy-Grandal-Robert-Gio-Cease-Lynn-Kopech-Hendricks would all still be here, and unless Hinch convinces Jerry to start signing 300 million dollar players…the results wouldn’t be much difference. 
 

Who is sitting on the bench is far from the biggest problem in this organization. 

I'm talking about roster / off-season moves. Nobody knows for sure if Tony had lone decision making, but the garbage trades and signings of guys like Steak Dinner from Saint Louis, Jake Lamb from Arizona, Brian Goodwin from Tony's Anaheim days, horseshit "crafty veteran" types like Adam Eaton and playing Leury everyday, likely the guy who pushed his 3 year deal. 

Ricky and Pedro had/have no say. I don't believe a quality candidate like Hinch would have accepted a job here without a major voice in terms of roster decisions.

Also think there would be far better communication between the manager / coaches / players and training staff, far better injury management, no lingering for several days unplayable before being placed on the IL. No cockamamie La Russa mismanagement of the development of both Kopech and Crochet, knowledge of the rule book, not the "old school book".

Tony La Russa was drunk and senile, wanted to be the players grandpa, only held rookies accountable. Pedro is out of his element. Ricky held players accountable, but Hahn treated him as his personal b****, with Hahn's Game 3 Bullpen Game and subsequent s%*# canning him after extending him 60 games prior.

Hinch on In Game Management:

https://eu.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2023/05/08/detroit-tigers-aj-hinch-matchups-winning-ways/70196955007/

[HOFHurt35]

2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I don't see this as how it went down. Tony clearly needed detox and or other treatments, looked and sounded like an actual functional human being for his long final press conference. Looked barely lucid and couldn't speak even for a minute or two pre/post game while managing.

That said, he and Hahn made terrible moves together beyond the Liam signing. AJ Hinch inherited a 47-114 team from 2019 (after the 2020 fake 60 game owner scam), identified the bad players and malcontents. Into the third season, they already have passed the White Sox at the half way mark, and have a better future roster, despite the fact they have 2/3 of the payroll, with close to half going to Cabrera and Baez ($54M of $122M).

Not saying the Sox would have won the World Series, but I am saying many of the reoccurring issues here would have been corrected or these players would have been traded, and there would have been much better off-seasons the past few years going with Hinch's input over signing guys Tony remembered from 10 years ago. The Sox likely would have had legitimate contention aspirations through this year and beyond with Hinch in charge vs. the Dinosaur and Crony Boy. 

 

Lol.  AJ Hinch is a suck ass manager just like all the others if the personnel on the field and in the front office don't pull their weight.

The slap in the face to me as a fan was sending LaRussa home but pretending like Rick Hahn had nothing to do with this disaster.

Both at the very least should have been dumped this past off-season and new faces brought in to re-evalute this situation with brand new ideas with no emotional ties to this roster and farm system.

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Lol.  AJ Hinch is a suck ass manager just like all the others if the personnel on the field and in the front office don't pull their weight.

The slap in the face to me as a fan was sending LaRussa home but pretending like Rick Hahn had nothing to do with this disaster.

Both at the very least should have been dumped this past off-season and new faces brought in to re-evalute this situation with brand new ideas with no emotional ties to this roster and farm system.

I have been for shitcanning Hahn since 2015. Took a lot of s%*# here for being consistent throughout, even after his "executive of the "year"" bullshit. Same with "120 Games a Year Elite" Grandal's pathetic deal.

That said, Hinch is a much better manager than either Tony or Pedro, and 2021 and beyond could have turned out much better with him in place.

Question for you and Tony - I believe we all feel Pedro and Ricky had minimal input in roster construction. What do you feel Tony's role was in terms of acquisitions and trades? I contend a lot. Doesn't absolve Hahn for all the s%*# before and after, but Tony only exacerbated the bad decisions during his 2 years.

Edited July 2, 2023 by South Side Hit Men

[Dick Allen]

I would think at this point the teams main goal is to keep Giolito healthy and effective until they trade him. He’s the one guy that’s going to go that can bring something useful back, unless  Cease and Robert and Kopech are available. They don’t have much that will get you a prospect the Sox wouldn’t have to develop too much to be a major league contributor. Anyone they would have to be significantly developed is a blah acquisition because it rarely happens.

How the f*** is Rick Hahn still an MLB GM?

Edited July 2, 2023 by Dick Allen

[SoxFest23]

Pedro came from a losing organization that was so used to losing games that he is used to it, no big deal. No reaction, no sense of urgency.

 

Very bad hire, the window is closing and we got a guy who is patiently watching it shut. Ozzie is the right guy to either turn this rutterless ship around or make it implode. 

[Balta1701]

5 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I have been for shitcanning Hahn since 2015. Took a lot of s%*# here for being consistent throughout, even after his "executive of the "year"" bullshit. Same with "120 Games a Year Elite" Grandal's pathetic deal.

That said, Hinch is a much better manager than either Tony or Pedro, and 2021 and beyond could have turned out much better with him in place.

Question for you and Tony - I believe we all feel Pedro and Ricky had minimal input in roster construction. What do you feel Tony's role was in terms of acquisitions and trades? I contend a lot. Doesn't absolve Hahn for all the s%*# before and after, but Tony only exacerbated the bad decisions during his 2 years.

I think it’s quite obvious that Tony was key in the signing of Joe Kelly, they literally told us that. I’d try to track down the tweets on that but well, Twitter.

Tony was probably involved heavily in the Leury signing. 

The other big moves that offseason were picking up Kimbrel’s deal and moving him for Pollock, letting Rodon walk, signing Graveman, and the desperation signing of Cueto after Lynn got hurt and they realized they had no backup plans. Graveman - that’s a classic Hahn signing. Kimbrel? That sure seemed like Hahn trying to cover up his mistake.

But, these signings hurt but they didn’t kill. You can’t look at the white Sox and say “this one deal is the biggest problem”, this situation is the result of issues and failures going back to 2017 and even before. 

Bad drafting, failure to use the international market effectively, overspending on bullpens, failure to develop depth, compounded by individual moves that were either awful at the time or that got bad over time. Tony LaRussa didn’t draft Crochet and then bury him in the bullpen so they have no starting depth. Maybe Tony LaRussa put Kopech in the pen so his arm isn’t conditioned, but that sure is consistent with Hahn’s moves. Tony LaRussa didn’t fail to use international money. Tony LaRussa didn’t draft Vaughn and Madrigal, and he didn’t get nothing else out of those drafts.

[Bob Sacamano]

Gotta trade Giolito.

[Dick Allen]

23 minutes ago, SoxFest23 said:

Pedro came from a losing organization that was so used to losing games that he is used to it, no big deal. No reaction, no sense of urgency.

 

Very bad hire, the window is closing and we got a guy who is patiently watching it shut. Ozzie is the right guy to either turn this rutterless ship around or make it implode. 

Pedro interviewed well and told them what they wanted to hear. 1B and DH as RF? That’s great we just need them ready to play. They weren’t going to hire anyone that disagreed with their analysis. They were willing to listen, then dismiss. Larry Himes was hated by JR, he did it a different way. He set the franchise up for sustained success they were unable to sustain before he was fired. When they hired Ozzie, KW and Ozzie will both tell you during his interviews, Ozzie told KW what he was doing wrong. It eventually led to the one year we have all been alive the White Sox ever won a playoff series. 

When things aren’t working you can continue to do exactly the same thing again and again thinking things will eventually change, but you are going to find out the hard way the change won’t be for the better. With this rebuild, the White Sox got to the point where it was over and they went back to operating like they have operated all the years they failed miserably where going for it, and all in couldn’t get you meaningful games in September.

They had 6 starter in the organization, and that was with Kopech not going to be able to go the entire season even if healthy. One of many grounds for termination. And Chris Getz, how come there isn’t anyone in the minor league system that can’t pick up some innings? Since you took the job every quote from you is raving about some player, Someome needs to tell Chris to go coach a travel team or something.

[Lip Man 1]

10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Pedro interviewed well and told them what they wanted to hear. 1B and DH as RF? That’s great we just need them ready to play. They weren’t going to hire anyone that disagreed with their analysis. They were willing to listen, then dismiss. Larry Himes was hated by JR, he did it a different way. He set the franchise up for sustained success they were unable to sustain before he was fired. When they hired Ozzie, KW and Ozzie will both tell you during his interviews, Ozzie told KW what he was doing wrong. It eventually led to the one year we have all been alive the White Sox ever won a playoff series. 

When things aren’t working you can continue to do exactly the same thing again and again thinking things will eventually change, but you are going to find out the hard way the change won’t be for the better. With this rebuild, the White Sox got to the point where it was over and they went back to operating like they have operated all the years they failed miserably where going for it, and all in couldn’t get you meaningful games in September.

They had 6 starter in the organization, and that was with Kopech not going to be able to go the entire season even if healthy. One of many grounds for termination. And Chris Getz, how come there isn’t anyone in the minor league system that can’t pick up some innings? Since you took the job every quote from you is raving about some player, Someome needs to tell Chris to go coach a travel team or something.

Betting money is when KW retires, Hahn kicked upstairs and Getz takes over as G.M. (Assuming JR still owns the team...)

[Chicago White Sox]

Quote

“We will be prepared to control the strike zone on both sides of the ball” - Pedro Grifol at opening press conference

Through July 1st, the Sox rank 29th in BB rate on both sides of the ball

Edited July 2, 2023 by Chicago White Sox

[Snopek]

55 minutes ago, SoxFest23 said:

Pedro came from a losing organization that was so used to losing games that he is used to it, no big deal. No reaction, no sense of urgency.

Don’t get me wrong, Pedro’s been a huge disappointment so far. But to say it’s because he came from the Royals seems a little silly. Are you honestly saying he can’t tell the difference between a clearly rebuilding Royals team and a team that’s (supposedly) in win now mode? He might not be a good manager, but he’s not an idiot.

Maybe that should have gone with Matt Quartraro as manager. He’s done such a great job bringing that winning culture from Tampa Bay over to the Royals.

[SoxFest23]

9 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Don’t get me wrong, Pedro’s been a huge disappointment so far. But to say it’s because he came from the Royals seems a little silly. Are you honestly saying he can’t tell the difference between a clearly rebuilding Royals team and a team that’s (supposedly) in win now mode? He might not be a good manager, but he’s not an idiot.

Maybe that should have gone with Matt Quartraro as manager. He’s done such a great job bringing that winning culture from Tampa Bay over to the Royals.

Royals expected to be worst team in baseball, Sox "expected" to have a parade. No comparison. Pedro just isn't ready to lead a "ready now" team, look at how he handles the TA disaster.

Horrible hire, never said he's an idiot.

The options are to stick with this guy while the window closes or make an immediate move to shake things up. Moving on now would cost the team money and embarrassment, so it won't happen.

 

 

 

 

[TheBooneLoganEra]

What they absolutely should do is trade Giolito then sign him in the off season but that is absolutely what they will not do. 

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

What they absolutely should do is trade Giolito then sign him in the off season but that is absolutely what they will not do. 

While I get the concept…they don’t have the resources to sign a $20 million salary pitcher this offseason. 

They have 2 starters under contract and a team 13 games below .500. Because of salary increases already on the books, they have about $30 to $40 million to spend to get back to this years’ payroll.

If they just wanted to keep this years roster together, they’d have to increase payroll compared to 2023. They just don’t have money for Giolito.

[SoxFest23]

13 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

What they absolutely should do is trade Giolito then sign him in the off season but that is absolutely what they will not do. 

JR sign a FA pitcher to real money, of course not happening. Giolito probably wants to get far away from the BS he's seen over the last 3-4 years. He'll gladly sign elsewhere.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

2 hours ago, SoxFest23 said:

Pedro came from a losing organization that was so used to losing games that he is used to it, no big deal. No reaction, no sense of urgency.

 

Very bad hire, the window is closing and we got a guy who is patiently watching it shut. Ozzie is the right guy to either turn this rutterless ship around or make it implode. 

Ozzie would be a massive dumpster fire.

[The Kids Can Play]

32 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

What they absolutely should do is trade Giolito then sign him in the off season but that is absolutely what they will not do. 

I do like that idea. The Yankees did that to the Cubs when they traded Aroldis Chapman to the Cubs in 2016 for three good prospects. After the season the Yankees resigned Chapman. 

The reason I don't think that will ever happen is, Giolito won't want to come back to the Sox. He is going to want to sign with a team that puts up plenty of runs, plays great defense and most importantly, is a winning team that often makes the playoffs.

[soxfaninfl]

51 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Pedro interviewed well and told them what they wanted to hear. 1B and DH as RF? That’s great we just need them ready to play. They weren’t going to hire anyone that disagreed with their analysis. They were willing to listen, then dismiss. Larry Himes was hated by JR, he did it a different way. He set the franchise up for sustained success they were unable to sustain before he was fired. When they hired Ozzie, KW and Ozzie will both tell you during his interviews, Ozzie told KW what he was doing wrong. It eventually led to the one year we have all been alive the White Sox ever won a playoff series. 

When things aren’t working you can continue to do exactly the same thing again and again thinking things will eventually change, but you are going to find out the hard way the change won’t be for the better. With this rebuild, the White Sox got to the point where it was over and they went back to operating like they have operated all the years they failed miserably where going for it, and all in couldn’t get you meaningful games in September.

They had 6 starter in the organization, and that was with Kopech not going to be able to go the entire season even if healthy. One of many grounds for termination. And Chris Getz, how come there isn’t anyone in the minor league system that can’t pick up some innings? Since you took the job every quote from you is raving about some player, Someome needs to tell Chris to go coach a travel team or something.

Great post. I think it's fair to say the Pedro hire is endemic for an organization devoid of any real plan to achieve success on any level. The hire really slides in nicely with the many decisions made over the past three seasons to supposedly improve this team. The Sox employ hope and best guesses over any devised plan and, well, 2023 is what you get when that hope or guesses are wrong.

The question is, of course, where does one go from here? The Sox have always valued hitters, specifically power hitting DH types, over actual players. It is how we have Vaughn, Burger, Eloy, and Sheets all on the same team (I would actually include Yaz too). Maybe it has to do something about an exploding scoreboard.  This needs to change and again (as you allude) a change they tried during the 2004 offseason but regressed the following offseason and continuing, for the most part, to today. It's funny and tragic - the one year the Sox won a WS in my lifetime, the team really did NOT have a prototypical DH. Let that sink in.

However, such adjustments take time, especially in light of the team's current situation. It's hard to assess where this team is. There is talent but it has all regressed with the noted exception of Luis. You can't fire the team, especially with the Sox farm condition, but there is a reason the manager is always the first to go. It is, of course, not the only change needed but you have to give this team an opportunity to win. Currently, a losing, scapegoating mentality is infecting this team and this goes no where if that doesn't change now. A change in managers is a quick way to change the tone of a team and, yes, normally, it is a short-term effect but at least the Sox can start to change the tide of past poor decisions and relying on hope. Have to start somewhere... and the sooner, the better.

 

[SoxFest23]

23 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Ozzie would be a massive dumpster fire.

More than likely yes, but that's sometimes better than something just slowly decaying in the dumpster. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by SoxFest23