Blow it the F Up

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

The reason would be he's been very disappointing as a 3rd overall pick and three weeks in the minors would get a year of control back.  But the Sox are never doing it.  

Genuinely uncertain about this - would trying to do this get the White Sox into "grievance and arbitration/court case" territory? 

[Saufley]

13 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Right now on pace for 69-93.

Heads SHOULD roll! But they won't.

[chitownsportsfan]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Genuinely uncertain about this - would trying to do this get the White Sox into "grievance and arbitration/court case" territory? 

Doubt it, but it would be pointless, Vaughn has to develop against MLB level pitching. AAA will do nothing for him.

[The Mighty Mite]

1 minute ago, Saufley said:

Heads SHOULD roll! But they won't.

New ownership is desperately needed, only way heads will roll.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Genuinely uncertain about this - would trying to do this get the White Sox into "grievance and arbitration/court case" territory? 

Probably not.  These grievances aren't nearly as common as they're brought up.  If Jordan Walker getting demoted didn't lead to a grievance, not sure how AV would.  When's the last time one of these was even filed?  Kris Bryant? 

The reality of the situation is AV is a career -0.6 fWAR player, has 250 minor league PA to his name, has regressed slightly offensively since an underwhelming 2022, and is a terrible fielder anywhere you put him.  I believed in AV - and still do believe in the bat to some degree - but a short term demotion isn't even close to grievance level, IMO. 

That said, Sox won't do it.  

[The Kids Can Play]

1 hour ago, Bob Sacamano said:

What's the league average slashline for 1B?

I don't have the league average for the slash line numbers for all first basemen, but I can show you where Vaughn ranks in each slash line number relative to all other first basemen in MLB:

BA

1.Freddie Freeman LAD     .317
2. Yandy Diaz TB                  .316
3. Josh Naylor CLV               .291
4. Paul Goldschmidt STL    .286
5. Vlad Guerrero Jr. TOR     .284
6. LaMonte Wade Jr. SF       .283
7. Spencer Steer CIN            .282
8. Christian Walker ARI        .282
9. Nathaniel Lowe TEX         .276
10. Ty France SEA                 .274
11. Anthony Rizzo NYY         .270
12. Alec Bohm PHI                .267
13. Dominic Smith WSH       .259
14.Vinnie Pasquantino KC   .247
15. Andrew Vaughn CWS   .240

OBP

1. LaMonte Wade Jr. SF     .416
2. Yandy Diaz TB                 .404
3. Freddie Freeman LAD    .397
4. Ryan Noda OAK               .387
5. Paul Goldschmidt STL     .376
6. Spencer Steer CIN           .368
7. Nathaniel Lowe TEX        .368
8. Vlad Guerrero Jr. TOR     .354
9. Anthony Rizzo NYY          .353
10. Matt Olson ATL              .348
11. Christian Walker ARI     .346
12. Ty France SEA                 .343
13. Josh Naylor CLE              .332
14. Dominic Smith WSH      .331
15. Triston Casas BOS         .328
16. Vin Pasquantino KC    .  324
17. Andrew Vaughn CHW .323 

SLG

1 Freddie Freeman LAD      .549
2  Matt Olson ATL                 .537
3  Pete Alonso NY                 .529
4  Christian Walker ARI        .521
5  Yandy Diaz TB                   .518
6  Spencer Steer CIN            .493
7  Paul Goldschmidt STL      .486
8  Josh Naylor CLE                 .469
9  LaMonte Wade Jr. SF        .465
10 Vlad Guerrero Jr. TOR     .453
11 Andrew Vaughn CHW   .439

OPS

1   Freddie Freeman LAD    .946
2   Yandy Diaz TB                  .922
3   Matt Olson ATL                .885
4   LaMonte Wade Jr. SF       .880
5   Christian Walker ARI       .867
6   Paul Goldschmidt STL     .862
7   Spencer Steer CIN            .861
8   Pete Alonso NYM             .843
9   Vlad Guerrero Jr. TOR      .807
10 Ryan Noda OAK                .804
11 Josh Naylor CLE                 .801
12 Nathaniel Lowe TEX         .798
13 Anthony Rizzo NYY           .786
14 Andrew Vaughn CHW    .762

 

Extremely disappointing numbers for the former 2019 # 3 overall draft pick.

[Tnetennba]

2 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

They're not going to be fired and replaced in the next month.

Which is why this org is completely fucked.  

[chitownsportsfan]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Probably not.  These grievances aren't nearly as common as they're brought up.  If Jordan Walker getting demoted didn't lead to a grievance, not sure how AV would.  When's the last time one of these was even filed?  Kris Bryant? 

The reality of the situation is AV is a career -0.6 fWAR player, has 250 minor league PA to his name, has regressed slightly offensively since an underwhelming 2022, and is a terrible fielder anywhere you put him.  I believed in AV - and still do believe in the bat to some degree - but a short term demotion isn't even close to grievance level, IMO. 

That said, Sox won't do it.  

If he has a grievance it's that the Sox wasted a year having him take reps in the outfield instead of focusing 100% on 1B and hitting. While ultimately it's on Vaughn to develop his skills it could not have helped his development focusing on learning the OF at the MLB level as a rookie.

[The Mighty Mite]

3 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I don't have the league average for the slash line numbers for all first basemen, but I can show you where Vaughn ranks in each slash line number relative to all other first basemen in MLB:

BA

1.Freddie Freeman LAD     .317
2. Yandy Diaz TB                  .316
3. Josh Naylor CLV               .291
4. Paul Goldschmidt STL    .286
5. Vlad Guerrero Jr. TOR     .284
6. LaMonte Wade Jr. SF       .283
7. Spencer Steer CIN            .282
8. Christian Walker ARI        .282
9. Nathaniel Lowe TEX         .276
10. Ty France SEA                 .274
11. Anthony Rizzo NYY         .270
12. Alec Bohm PHI                .267
13. Dominic Smith WSH       .259
14.Vinnie Pasquantino KC   .247
15. Andrew Vaughn CWS   .240

OBP

1. LaMonte Wade Jr. SF     .416
2. Yandy Diaz TB                 .404
3. Freddie Freeman LAD    .397
4. Ryan Noda OAK               .387
5. Paul Goldschmidt STL     .376
6. Spencer Steer CIN           .368
7. Nathaniel Lowe TEX        .368
8. Vlad Guerrero Jr. TOR     .354
9. Anthony Rizzo NYY          .353
10. Matt Olson ATL              .348
11. Christian Walker ARI     .346
12. Ty France SEA                 .343
13. Josh Naylor CLE              .332
14. Dominic Smith WSH      .331
15. Triston Casas BOS         .328
16. Vin Pasquantino KC    .  324
17. Andrew Vaughn CHW .323 

SLG

1 Freddie Freeman LAD      .549
2  Matt Olson ATL                 .537
3  Pete Alonso NY                 .529
4  Christian Walker ARI        .521
5  Yandy Diaz TB                   .518
6  Spencer Steer CIN            .493
7  Paul Goldschmidt STL      .486
8  Josh Naylor CLE                 .469
9  LaMonte Wade Jr. SF        .465
10 Vlad Guerrero Jr. TOR     .453
11 Andrew Vaughn CHW   .439

OPS

1   Freddie Freeman LAD    .946
2   Yandy Diaz TB                  .922
3   Matt Olson ATL                .885
4   LaMonte Wade Jr. SF       .880
5   Christian Walker ARI       .867
6   Paul Goldschmidt STL     .862
7   Spencer Steer CIN            .861
8   Pete Alonso NYM             .843
9   Vlad Guerrero Jr. TOR      .807
10 Ryan Noda OAK                .804
11 Josh Naylor CLE                 .801
12 Nathaniel Lowe TEX         .798
13 Anthony Rizzo NYY           .786
14 Andrew Vaughn CHW    .762

 

Extremely disappointing numbers for the former 2019 # 3 overall draft pick.

I had no idea he was this bad.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Probably not.  These grievances aren't nearly as common as they're brought up.  If Jordan Walker getting demoted didn't lead to a grievance, not sure how AV would.  When's the last time one of these was even filed?  Kris Bryant? 

The reality of the situation is AV is a career -0.6 fWAR player, has 250 minor league PA to his name, has regressed slightly offensively since an underwhelming 2022, and is a terrible fielder anywhere you put him.  I believed in AV - and still do believe in the bat to some degree - but a short term demotion isn't even close to grievance level, IMO. 

That said, Sox won't do it.  

Probably unlikely, but to me it’s a no-brainer.  Right now, we have three years left of control with Vaughn after this season.  With how he’s hitting right now, he’s basically a one win 1B.  Personally, I think a month in AAA might allow him to work on some adjustments without pressure to actually produce.  And adding a 4th season of control buys us another season of development and greatly increases his chances of providing value to us in some way shape or form.

[Tnetennba]

Fire Rick Hahn today, let KW make the fire sale trades, then get to work putting feelers out for replacements with actual baseball acumen.  This season is lost, as are likely the next few.  There is no simple quick fix, and any attempt is merely delaying the inevitable. 

[chitownsportsfan]

No offense to anybody posting it but it's sorta amazing that in 2023 you're still not aware of the defensive spectrum and how it affects value. I mean, maybe it's 'cause the team you follow doesn't seem to realize it either, to be fair.

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I don't have the league average for the slash line numbers for all first basemen,

.255/.332/.433/.765 is the average for all 1b this year so far. This is the highest offensive output of any position.

[Chicago White Sox]

10 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I don't have the league average for the slash line numbers for all first basemen, but I can show you where Vaughn ranks in each slash line number relative to all other first basemen in MLB:

BA

1.Freddie Freeman LAD     .317
2. Yandy Diaz TB                  .316
3. Josh Naylor CLV               .291
4. Paul Goldschmidt STL    .286
5. Vlad Guerrero Jr. TOR     .284
6. LaMonte Wade Jr. SF       .283
7. Spencer Steer CIN            .282
8. Christian Walker ARI        .282
9. Nathaniel Lowe TEX         .276
10. Ty France SEA                 .274
11. Anthony Rizzo NYY         .270
12. Alec Bohm PHI                .267
13. Dominic Smith WSH       .259
14.Vinnie Pasquantino KC   .247
15. Andrew Vaughn CWS   .240

OBP

1. LaMonte Wade Jr. SF     .416
2. Yandy Diaz TB                 .404
3. Freddie Freeman LAD    .397
4. Ryan Noda OAK               .387
5. Paul Goldschmidt STL     .376
6. Spencer Steer CIN           .368
7. Nathaniel Lowe TEX        .368
8. Vlad Guerrero Jr. TOR     .354
9. Anthony Rizzo NYY          .353
10. Matt Olson ATL              .348
11. Christian Walker ARI     .346
12. Ty France SEA                 .343
13. Josh Naylor CLE              .332
14. Dominic Smith WSH      .331
15. Triston Casas BOS         .328
16. Vin Pasquantino KC    .  324
17. Andrew Vaughn CHW .323 

SLG

1 Freddie Freeman LAD      .549
2  Matt Olson ATL                 .537
3  Pete Alonso NY                 .529
4  Christian Walker ARI        .521
5  Yandy Diaz TB                   .518
6  Spencer Steer CIN            .493
7  Paul Goldschmidt STL      .486
8  Josh Naylor CLE                 .469
9  LaMonte Wade Jr. SF        .465
10 Vlad Guerrero Jr. TOR     .453
11 Andrew Vaughn CHW   .439

OPS

1   Freddie Freeman LAD    .946
2   Yandy Diaz TB                  .922
3   Matt Olson ATL                .885
4   LaMonte Wade Jr. SF       .880
5   Christian Walker ARI       .867
6   Paul Goldschmidt STL     .862
7   Spencer Steer CIN            .861
8   Pete Alonso NYM             .843
9   Vlad Guerrero Jr. TOR      .807
10 Ryan Noda OAK                .804
11 Josh Naylor CLE                 .801
12 Nathaniel Lowe TEX         .798
13 Anthony Rizzo NYY           .786
14 Andrew Vaughn CHW    .762

 

Extremely disappointing numbers for the former 2019 # 3 overall draft pick.

Is this based on qualified 1B?  Adjust the PA requirement down and he quickly falls down these lists.  And even further when adjusting for ballpark factor.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Chicago White Sox

[Tnetennba]

31 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

To build off this, does anyone see a path to competing in 2024?  How do you put together a competent pitching staff, add a starting catcher, and fix the general shittiness of the offense in one offseason?  Even with a new GM, that’s too tall of a task to address.  IMO, this is the last season of the competitive window and that’s using the term very loosely.

No.  There is no easy fix.  This is worst case scenario territory.  I hope we enjoyed that ALC title from a few years ago, because that was the peak for this bunch. 

[The Kids Can Play]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

Is this based on qualified 1B?  Adjust the PA requirement down and he quickly falls down these lists.  And even when adjusting for ballpark factor.

This was simply based on qualified PA numbers. However it really only matters comparing Andrew to regular everyday starters at first base. I don't care much about the backup first basemen. We need to know how he compares to the premium top end first baseman. 

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, Tnetennba said:

No.  There is no easy fix.  This is worst case scenario territory.  I hope we enjoyed that ALC title from a few years ago, because that was the peak for this bunch. 

And look at the minor league reinforcements?  It’s slim pickings at the top of the system.  I don’t see any reasonable path of competing before 2026 and a ton needs to go right for that to happen.  And every day that we pretend we are somehow a contender is another day competing is further delayed.

[flavum]

If they blow it up, would Heston Kjerstad be a realistic/good target from Baltimore? He’s had some health problems, but hopefully he’s over it and will be 25 next year. 

[chitownsportsfan]

1 minute ago, flavum said:

If they blow it up, would Heston Kjerstad be a realistic/good target from Baltimore? He’s had some health problems, but hopefully he’s over it and will be 25 next year. 

Well if there's one org that can help him stay healthy, it's this one...

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, The Kids Can Play said:

This was simply based on qualified PA numbers. However it really only matters comparing Andrew to regular everyday starters at first base. I don't care much about the backup first basemen. We need to know how he compares to the premium top end first baseman. 

My point is 1B is an easy position to platoon, so restricting your comparison to everyday guys ignores some left-handed 1B who get the bulk of the at-bats and provide more value in tandem than Andrew does alone.

[chitownsportsfan]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

My point is 1B is an easy position to platoon, so restricting your comparison to everyday guys ignores some left-handed 1B who get the bulk of the at-bats and provide more value in tandem than Andrew does alone.

Another problem with the overall construction of the White Sox is that they have failed for years to find left handed mashers that are DH/1B types. They found...Sheets. Who hits like a 2B and fields like a DH.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, flavum said:

If they blow it up, would Heston Kjerstad be a realistic/good target from Baltimore? He’s had some health problems, but hopefully he’s over it and will be 25 next year. 

What are the White Sox giving up that Baltimore needs? A quick look suggests he's likely quite a bit more valuable than what you could return for a guy with 1 year of control like Giolito or one of the relievers. 

If the White Sox were to move Cease or (eek) Robert, he could be a part of a package for either of them. 

[Tnetennba]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And look at the minor league reinforcements?  It’s slim pickings at the top of the system.  I don’t see any reasonable path of competing before 2026 and a ton needs to go right for that to happen.  And every day that we pretend we are somehow a contender is another day competing is further delayed.

The upper minors are barren and devoid of talent.  It’s worse than the big club.  They still can’t scout, draft, or develop, and unless you want to trade Cease and Robert, you have nothing to jumpstart the next rebuild.  TA, Gio, Lynn, Moncada, Kelly, or Liam aren’t bringing back impact talent either. 

This org is completely fucked, and look no further than the dopes in charge.  We won’t see competitive baseball on the Southside for at least 5 years.  It’s that dire. 

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

The upper minors are barren and devoid of talent.  It’s worse than the big club.  They still can’t scout, draft, or develop, and unless you want to trade Cease and Robert, you have nothing to jumpstart the next rebuild.  TA, Gio, Lynn, Moncada, Kelly, or Liam aren’t bringing back impact talent either. 

This org is completely fucked, and look no further than the dopes in charge.  We won’t see competitive baseball on the Southside for at least 5 years.  It’s that dire. 

TBH, I think we have to trade Cease in the off-season and potentially Robert as well.  Otherwise, I think we’re going to see a lot 3rd place AL Central finishes for the foreseeable future, which is both super embarrassing and fulfilling to me at all.  Scorched-earth rebuild is likely needed and Cease / Robert are the only two who can really move the needle.  It sucks obviously, but so does being mired in mediocrity while in the worst division in professional sports.

[The Kids Can Play]

25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

.255/.332/.433/.765 is the average for all 1b this year so far. This is the highest offensive output of any position.

As it usually is most years. 

 

15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

My point is 1B is an easy position to platoon, so restricting your comparison to everyday guys ignores some left-handed 1B who get the bulk of the at-bats and provide more value in tandem than Andrew does alone.

That is not true. You are assuming all left handed 1B get platooned. The fact is the top LH 1B do not get platooned.

LH 1B

                                 GM    AB
Matt Olson              78   300
Freddie Freeman    77   305
Nathaniel Lowe       77   304
Anthony Rizzo          72   270
LaMonte Wade Jr.    70   226
Josh Naylor               69   254
Vin Pasquantino       61   231

versus
Andrew Vaughn        78   287