Blow it the F Up

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Trading the real Burger for a complete nothing Burger is par for the course.

Semien and Narvaez both made huge leaps defensively away from the Sox.

He’s one of the VERY few players the fans actually seem to enjoy cheering for in a current cold streak.

 

The only way you trade Burger is you’re sure about Montgomery or Ramos at third…and/or SS.  And there’s absolutely no way the Sox can feel that way at this point.

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/white-sox-outfielder-luis-robert-jr-compared-to-mike-trout

Merkin is only three years late bringing this puff piece back to the forefront again.

 

You and I have talked about this before. Burger is 27, he’s not young; he’s in his prime years. He’s inexperienced so he has room to get better, but it isn’t long before he’s actually old. He has two severe injuries on his record. Finally, he’s a big body who already doesn’t move well, and those guys have a history of not aging well.

If the White Sox aren’t competitive the next 2 years, are we confident he’s going to still be useful when he’s 30? Maybe, but the two years he gives to us could definitely be more useful for someone who needs a DH right now. And if he does have more injury problems, at least we cashed him in for something that could be useful in a couple years. Furthermore, Moncada is basically untradeable with that contract, so if he can walk next April he’s going to start at 3b to see if he can build any value. Burger is a guy whose profile says he cannot help the White Sox right now, that means if you can get anything for him you must do so.

[Eminor3rd]

11 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

As the title suggests, it’s officially time to blow this team the f*** up.  This group of players is an absolute joke and even if we somehow lucked our way into the playoffs (which won’t happen) this team would be as dangerous as a butter knife come October.

In terms of production, our positional group is 28th in fWAR sitting at a cool 3.3.  If you take out our superstar CF (3.3), our slap happy LF (0.8), and a 27 year old rookie DH (0.8),  we’d have -1.6 fWAR.  That’s fucking incredible.  Tim Anderson has gone from being a legit superstar SS to one of the worst regulars in baseball.  Dude is now 30 and 1 1/2 years from free agency with what appears to be serious personal issues to boot.  Beyond that, the roster is filled with DHs who have stagnated or regressed offensively.  Eloy has gone from a 144 wRC+ in 2022 to a 99 in 2023.  The coaching staff can’t seem to figure how to get Vaughn above a 110ish level wRC+ despite him having the talent for more.  Sheets has gotten 184 PAs and is putting up a 94 wRC+ while continuing to factor into the RF mix.  After that you simply have a group old (Grandal), bad (Zavala), old/bad (Andrus), or chronically injured players (Moncada).  2B & RF continue to problem areas for us and this off-season we will enter no viable catching options.  To say things are bleak is a massive fucking understatement.

The pitching staff has been better, but is still below average (22nd in fWAR at 5.8) and is filled with veterans with minimal control.  Giolito (1.7) & Clevinger (0.7) are both free agents after the year and Lynn (0.8) only has a $19M team option remaining.  What is even more problematic though is that Cease & Kopech are only controllable through 2025.  The former is now represented by Boras, which means he is as good as gone the day he hits free agency.  The ladder has been a massive disappointment and not even worthy of a potential extension at this point.  Behind them we have absolutely nothing at AAA because Hahn has done such a bang up job creating a pipeline of talent.  As for the bullpen, it’s pretty much Santos and a bunch of aging veterans.  As should be painfully obvious to all of us, this pitching staff is going to be a disaster as soon as next year whether we sell at the deadline or not.

Unfortunately, the reality is we’re going to need to rebuild and it’s going to be a long one given how bad Rick has done at building a minor league system.  Again, it’s time to blow this team the f*** up and start from scratch.  Specific actions I’d like to see taken will be in a follow-up post.

I'm sorry, I know it seems melodramatic, but I sincerely hope they trade no one, honestly not even expiring contracts.

I really think the only chance in hell there's ever a wholesale change in leadership is if the franchise totally craters. At this point, I'm willing to sign up for it, no matter how long it takes and no matter how deep the hole -- because the alternative is an eternity of knowing damn well the team isn't good enough and will only ever win again if every hand turns up aces like in 2005. 

And I'm being honest here, not vindictive or edgy: I've lost interest in this team. I'm not even watching the games anymore. It isn't to "penalize" the team or "send a message," it's just purely from totally losing hope and interest, and preferring to do other things. I click on SoxTalk almost every day, by rote, out of habit, and 90% of the time I bounce without viewing a single thread. Like I almost can't believe it as I type it, but I'm not sure I would even give a s%*# if they ripped off a 20-game winstreak and suddenly looked like a lock for the playoffs. Maybe I'm wrong, but right now I just can't imagine it. It's like my subconscious has moved on. I'm just done with them. For literally the first time I can remember, the White Sox have ceased to be a part of my summer.

I'm now wondering if it's possible that this fucking clownshow of an organization has somehow snuffed out this candle for me. And if so, what an achievement that would be -- I've been a fanatic most of my life, and I understand the swells and troughs of a competitive window. I'm patient and entertained by the process itself. It's just -- after this many consecutive years of being, overwhelmingly, a source of frustration for me, my brain feels like it's finally becoming trained to search elsewhere for meaning. This is truly EXCEPTIONAL incompetence, well beyond what can be expected even through luck.

For a long time, we could root for signs that they were going to learn, change. adapt, improve, etc. We know now, after seeing them finally get the chance to do it totally right, with all the time and support they need, that, beyond the shadow of the doubt, they cannot. This is who they are. This is what they think works.

They gotta go. Doesn't matter what it takes.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Eminor3rd

[chitownsportsfan]

52 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

 

They gotta go. Doesn't matter what it takes.

Spoiler

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by chitownsportsfan

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

I'm sorry, I know it seems melodramatic, but I sincerely hope they trade no one, honestly not even expiring contracts.

I really think the only chance in hell there's ever a wholesale change in leadership is if the franchise totally craters. At this point, I'm willing to sign up for it, no matter how long it takes and no matter how deep the hole -- because the alternative is an eternity of knowing damn well the team isn't good enough and will only ever win again if every hand turns up aces like in 2005. 

And I'm being honest here, not vindictive or edgy: I've lost interest in this team. I'm not even watching the games anymore. It isn't to "penalize" the team or "send a message," it's just purely from totally losing hope and interest, and preferring to do other things. I click on SoxTalk almost every day, by rote, out of habit, and 90% of the time I bounce without viewing a single thread. Like I almost can't believe it as I type it, but I'm not sure I would even give a s%*# if they ripped off a 20-game winstreak and suddenly looked like a lock for the playoffs. Maybe I'm wrong, but right now I just can't imagine it. It's like my subconscious has moved on. I'm just done with them. For literally the first time I can remember, the White Sox have ceased to be a part of my summer.

I'm now wondering if it's possible that this fucking clownshow of an organization has somehow snuffed out this candle for me. And if so, what an achievement that would be -- I've been a fanatic most of my life, and I understand the swells and troughs of a competitive window. I'm patient and entertained by the process itself. It's just -- after this many consecutive years of being, overwhelmingly, a source of frustration for me, my brain feels like it's finally becoming trained to search elsewhere for meaning. This is truly EXCEPTIONAL incompetence, well beyond what can be expected even through luck.

For a long time, we could root for signs that they were going to learn, change. adapt, improve, etc. We know now, after seeing them finally get the chance to do it totally right, with all the time and support they need, that, beyond the shadow of the doubt, they cannot. This is who they are. This is what they think works.

They gotta go. Doesn't matter what it takes.

A lot of fans are feeling the exact same way, I'm basically just watching occasionally and checking box scores. I've been a die-hard fan for 63 seasons now and i never thought I'd get apathetic about the franchise but that is now coming to pass.

White Sox fans are now in hell because of Jerry Reinsdorf. 

 

[South Side Hit Men]

5 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

A lot of fans are feeling the exact same way, I'm basically just watching occasionally and checking box scores. I've been a die-hard fan for 63 seasons now and i never thought I'd get apathetic about the franchise but that is now coming to pass.

White Sox fans are now in hell because of Jerry Reinsdorf. 

They are in a worse spot headed into the next four years than they were in 2016. Hahn signed Eaton, so gets credit for that, but also flipped anything of value inherited by Kenny.

He has Robert as the only blue chip in 2023. The long term future is as bad as it has been than it has been since the depression / Charles Comiskey Death / Bridgeport post segregation panic generation of Sox fandom (1930-1950).

If Hahn continues into the 2030s, the current generation will experience an even worse stretch and may ultimately force a move from Chicago post half century of Jerry Reinsdorf.

[Highland]

3 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

A lot of fans are feeling the exact same way, I'm basically just watching occasionally and checking box scores. I've been a die-hard fan for 63 seasons now and i never thought I'd get apathetic about the franchise but that is now coming to pass.

White Sox fans are now in hell because of Jerry Reinsdorf. 

 

This is what JR and the rest of the Sox doesn't understand. Many loyal and long-time fans are tuning out because this FO has no clue.

There are many suggestions on this thread to improve this club. But just who is going make any changes to turn this club around? First dramatic changes need to be made in the FO and that just isn't happening. Instead, everyone is sitting on their hands doing nothing or lashing out at fans.

There are so many things wrong with this roster. Even if some action is finally taken, it will take time to rebuild this club. We have to expect more losing. 2025 is just around the corner and we will have experienced 20 years without another World Series. Maybe even 20 more years after that.

 

 

[Chimpton]

4 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

A lot of fans are feeling the exact same way, I'm basically just watching occasionally and checking box scores. I've been a die-hard fan for 63 seasons now and i never thought I'd get apathetic about the franchise but that is now coming to pass.

White Sox fans are now in hell because of Jerry Reinsdorf. 

 

Its almost as if he is trying to p*ss off the fans so that he then has an excuse to move the franchise due to lack of attendance.

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

Its almost as if he is trying to p*ss off the fans so that he then has an excuse to move the franchise due to lack of attendance.

See Oakland A's and Cincy owners... although that kind of reverse backfired on the Reds' ownership as they suddenly have one of the most entertaining teams in the sport. 

Marlins and Rays still undecided... 

[caulfield12]

10 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

You and I have talked about this before. Burger is 27, he’s not young; he’s in his prime years. He’s inexperienced so he has room to get better, but it isn’t long before he’s actually old. He has two severe injuries on his record. Finally, he’s a big body who already doesn’t move well, and those guys have a history of not aging well.

If the White Sox aren’t competitive the next 2 years, are we confident he’s going to still be useful when he’s 30? Maybe, but the two years he gives to us could definitely be more useful for someone who needs a DH right now. And if he does have more injury problems, at least we cashed him in for something that could be useful in a couple years. Furthermore, Moncada is basically untradeable with that contract, so if he can walk next April he’s going to start at 3b to see if he can build any value. Burger is a guy whose profile says he cannot help the White Sox right now, that means if you can get anything for him you must do so.

I just believe strictly from a marketing standpoint Burger's story has more value to the White Sox and their fans if they're legitimately going to tear this down. 

He might end up more Matt Davidson or Conor Gillaspie or Chris Snopek.  Started a thread a month ago and it's still not clear what position player a typical fan would even want to watch hit after Robert. 

Maybe they do end up holding Anderson, Jimenez and Moncada into next season...and not quite sure "Anderson's lame duck rodeo" works if he doesn't show much improvement through the end of this season. 

Without any prospects to market like they had from 2018-20...especially on the pitching side, not sure how they can survive another rebuild with almost nobody to look forward to the next couple of seasons on pitching side. 

Drafting more "immediate impact" NCAA players (Vaughn Collins Madrigal Burger Burdi) likewise seems to be the path of typical Sox rebuilds...but look how well that worked out. 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

I just believe strictly from a marketing standpoint Burger's story has more value to the White Sox and their fans if they're legitimately going to tear this down. 

He might end up more Matt Davidson or Conor Gillaspie or Chris Snopek.  Started a thread a month ago and it's still not clear what position player a typical fan would even want to watch hit after Robert. 

Maybe they do end up holding Anderson, Jimenez and Moncada into next season...and not quite sure "Anderson's lame duck rodeo" works if he doesn't show much improvement through the end of this season. 

Without any prospects to market like they had from 2018-20...especially on the pitching side, not sure how they can survive another rebuild with almost nobody to look forward to the next couple of seasons on pitching side. 

Drafting more "immediate impact" NCAA players (Vaughn Collins Madrigal Burger Burdi) likewise seems to be the path of typical Sox rebuilds...but look how well that worked out. 

I believe White Sox fans have long been the sort who don’t care for stuff like That unless there is a winning team on the field. They have several feel good stories this year and a dramatic attendance drop. Hahnball just doesn’t sell tickets, you actually have to have a competitive team.

[FloydBannister1983]

5 hours ago, Highland said:

This is what JR and the rest of the Sox doesn't understand. Many loyal and long-time fans are tuning out because this FO has no clue.

There are many suggestions on this thread to improve this club. But just who is going make any changes to turn this club around? First dramatic changes need to be made in the FO and that just isn't happening. Instead, everyone is sitting on their hands doing nothing or lashing out at fans.

There are so many things wrong with this roster. Even if some action is finally taken, it will take time to rebuild this club. We have to expect more losing. 2025 is just around the corner and we will have experienced 20 years without another World Series. Maybe even 20 more years after that.

 

 

Many long time fans and a generation of kids for whom the White Sox are not even on their radar screen.

[Capn12]

Pretty sure it is about time for the Clint Frazier experiment to end. It went about like it has went for Frazier at every stop: not productively.

If the team is going to suck, and clearly, they are, then just let Colas play RF and run it. Let the 'Ls' mount!

[DFAthewave69420]

Seby Zavala swings a sword

 

https://twitter.com/chelidog/status/1673943257615593472?s=46

[hogan873]

Players I've seen enough of:

- Tim Anderson
- Elvis Andrus
- Seby Zavala
- Clint Frazier
- Gavin Sheets (over used, not necessarily his fault)

Just bring up Colas and let him play RF.  Give Remillard every chance at 2B.  I heard Carlos Perez was up with the team; let him take Zavala's role.  I think we're stuck with either TA or Andrus at SS, unfortunately.

Edited June 28, 2023 by hogan873

[Capn12]

8-16-1 in series this year, with another L or at best, Tie, half way on the books.

"Contention Window"

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, Capn12 said:

8-16-1 in series this year, with another L or at best, Tie, half way on the books.

"Contention Window"

And somehow only six games out.  The 5th place team in the AL East would be the top team in the AL Central.  Rick Hahn literally is up against the poorest and most incompetent organizations and can’t build a division winner.  Imagine having $180M to spend and only being able to finish 4th in this s%*#-show.  I’m praying that this level of embarrassment will finally result in the end of Rick’s reign of terror.

[zisk]

We're bad. We'll get worse next year. The only thing holding us together is starting pitching.

Gio and Lynn are gone in less than 3 weeks. 100 losses are more likely than not. 100 losses

next year is a real possibility. To brighten the mood, all future posts from Zisk will be humor

based. Talking about reality kinda blows.

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Without any prospects to market like they had from 2018-20...especially on the pitching side, not sure how they can survive another rebuild with almost nobody to look forward to the next couple of seasons on pitching side. 

Drafting more "immediate impact" NCAA players (Vaughn Collins Madrigal Burger Burdi) likewise seems to be the path of typical Sox rebuilds...but look how well that worked out. 

The one reason it makes sense for the White Sox to draft college players is the fact that they are not good developing players, using the NCAA to do their work instead of improving their internal player development.

The problem has been they have focused on relievers and 1B/DHs, the lowest hanging fruit in terms of acquiring depth, when they should have focused on players who are solid all around players, especially up the middle defensively, unless they were a potential MVP talent like Abreu.
 

Hahn Era Rookie of the Year Winners:

Hitters

• High School (5): W. Myers; C. Correa; C. Seager; C. Bellinger; M. Harris II
• International (6): J. Abreu; R. Acuna Jr.; S. Ohtani*; Y. Alvarez; R. Arozarena; J. Rodriguez
• College (5): K. Bryant; A. Judge; P. Alonso; K. Lewis; J. India

Pitchers

• High School (3): J. Fernandez; M. Fulmer; D. Williams
• International (1): S. Ohtani*
• College (1): J. deGrom

[reiks12]

13 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

I'm sorry, I know it seems melodramatic, but I sincerely hope they trade no one, honestly not even expiring contracts.

I really think the only chance in hell there's ever a wholesale change in leadership is if the franchise totally craters. At this point, I'm willing to sign up for it, no matter how long it takes and no matter how deep the hole -- because the alternative is an eternity of knowing damn well the team isn't good enough and will only ever win again if every hand turns up aces like in 2005. 

And I'm being honest here, not vindictive or edgy: I've lost interest in this team. I'm not even watching the games anymore. It isn't to "penalize" the team or "send a message," it's just purely from totally losing hope and interest, and preferring to do other things. I click on SoxTalk almost every day, by rote, out of habit, and 90% of the time I bounce without viewing a single thread. Like I almost can't believe it as I type it, but I'm not sure I would even give a s%*# if they ripped off a 20-game winstreak and suddenly looked like a lock for the playoffs. Maybe I'm wrong, but right now I just can't imagine it. It's like my subconscious has moved on. I'm just done with them. For literally the first time I can remember, the White Sox have ceased to be a part of my summer.

I'm now wondering if it's possible that this fucking clownshow of an organization has somehow snuffed out this candle for me. And if so, what an achievement that would be -- I've been a fanatic most of my life, and I understand the swells and troughs of a competitive window. I'm patient and entertained by the process itself. It's just -- after this many consecutive years of being, overwhelmingly, a source of frustration for me, my brain feels like it's finally becoming trained to search elsewhere for meaning. This is truly EXCEPTIONAL incompetence, well beyond what can be expected even through luck.

For a long time, we could root for signs that they were going to learn, change. adapt, improve, etc. We know now, after seeing them finally get the chance to do it totally right, with all the time and support they need, that, beyond the shadow of the doubt, they cannot. This is who they are. This is what they think works.

They gotta go. Doesn't matter what it takes.

This should be pinned

[T R U]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And somehow only six games out.  The 5th place team in the AL East would be the top team in the AL Central.  Rick Hahn literally is up against the poorest and most incompetent organizations and can’t build a division winner.  Imagine having $180M to spend and only being able to finish 4th in this s%*#-show.  I’m praying that this level of embarrassment will finally result in the end of Rick’s reign of terror.

Im really concerned that nothing is going to change. Whats more likely, these same guys get to keep their jobs and they give it another try with a group that is largely still in tact next season... OR... JR cleans house, has to pay all the people that have been fired while performing an exhausting search to hire all these new front office and management people as well as possibly an entire coaching staff.

My guess is, this team hangs around 5-7 games back for the remainder of the year. The Sox lose Grandal, Giolito, Lopez, Middleton, and Andrus after this season. Maybe Clevinger. Everything else they have the option to retain or are under contract. I think they could definitely talk themselves into going at it again.

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

This should be pinned

Goes with the Berto radio rant...just a bit more melancholic lol. 

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, T R U said:

Im really concerned that nothing is going to change. Whats more likely, these same guys get to keep their jobs and they give it another try with a group that is largely still in tact next season... OR... JR cleans house, has to pay all the people that have been fired while performing an exhausting search to hire all these new front office and management people as well as possibly an entire coaching staff.

My guess is, this team hangs around 5-7 games back for the remainder of the year. The Sox lose Grandal, Giolito, Lopez, Middleton, and Andrus after this season. Maybe Clevinger. Everything else they have the option to retain or are under contract. I think they could definitely talk themselves into going at it again.

With what pitching staff? 

You're overlooking how likely it is that Lynn and Clevinger will also be out the door with Lucas. 

[Chicago White Sox]

Thinking about this a bit further, this is the lineup I’d like to see next year if we go full rebuild and trade both Robert & Tim:

• 1B: Vaughn
• 2B: Moncada
• SS: Sosa
• 3B: Burger
• LF: Benintendi
• CF: FA / trade
• RF: Colas
• DH: Jimenez
• CA: FA / trade

Yes, I realize a few guys are playing out of position to some extent (which most people will hate), but in a lost season let’s see what guys are capable of.  My thinking is Moncada is more tradable if he can show some versatility and I see no reason he can’t handle 2B.  We may as well give Burger a shot at 3B if wins don’t matter as even being passable there greatly improves his value.  And that leaves Sosa at SS, which is not his ideal position, but playing there could help him if he ultimately ends up being a UT guy.

I don’t see obvious options for C or CF, so either you get someone via trade (in one our sell-off deals) or sign some reclamation projects.  Zero reason to spend big on free agents this upcoming off-season.  Also, I’d commit to Eloy as a full-time DH and wouldn’t consider him in the field under any circumstance.  We need to get him back to a 140 wRC+ hitter in hopes of eventually cashing him for something that better fits our timeline.  I’d love to move Benintendi but I think he’s untradeable unless you eat the last year or two of his deal.

I won’t even speculate on what our pitching staff might look like because it will likely be a complete s%*#-show no matter what we do.

[T R U]

15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

With what pitching staff? 

You're overlooking how likely it is that Lynn and Clevinger will also be out the door with Lucas. 

 Lynn's optioned would be picked up. I also said possibly Clevinger. I was also just saying if they wanted to try and go at it again most of the roster is still in tact outside of the handful of names I mentioned.

[Chicago White Sox]

15 minutes ago, T R U said:

Im really concerned that nothing is going to change. Whats more likely, these same guys get to keep their jobs and they give it another try with a group that is largely still in tact next season... OR... JR cleans house, has to pay all the people that have been fired while performing an exhausting search to hire all these new front office and management people as well as possibly an entire coaching staff.

My guess is, this team hangs around 5-7 games back for the remainder of the year. The Sox lose Grandal, Giolito, Lopez, Middleton, and Andrus after this season. Maybe Clevinger. Everything else they have the option to retain or are under contract. I think they could definitely talk themselves into going at it again.

Honestly, anything is possible with this org, but I do think Jerry is probably losing patience with Hahn.  Supposedly we lost a ton of money last year and that was before the largest attendance drop in baseball.  And if there is one thing Jerry hates it’s losing money.  Beyond that, Hahn is finally running out of scapegoats.  He can’t make his handed picked manager the fall guy for this fiasco of a season.  For the first time in 10 years, I actually think a change at GM is possible.  But to your point, will Jerry do an exhaustive search and hire a top talent from outside the organization or simply just elevate Chris Getz?  Even if with a GM change we may end being in the same basic position.  Just got to hope spending $180M on a 4th place product convinces Jerry the status quo isn’t working and structural changes are needed to fix this organization.