Blow it the F Up

[GreatScott82]

Blowing it up will just confirm that Hahn’s rebuild was a complete failure. Firing Pedro Grifol will also confirm that Hahn’s hire was a complete failure. We all know Rick and Kenny care more about “proving fans wrong” than actually doing the most logical and decent thing. Because of this, they prolong misery and consequently let players of value actually lose value in the process. Outside of firing Rick Hahn, which should have already happened, (but we all know it won’t ever happen while Jerry is alive), I’m pretty sure we can all expect a half ass “retool” 

I fully expect no more than the rentals to be traded: Giolito, Grandal, Lynn, Gravemen and Kelly, 

I don’t think Hahn should be allowed to consider trading guys like Vaughn, Cease, Robert or Kopech. And I’m not even sure what kind of value TA has at this point. It’s safe to say that he’s not the SS of the future and that he doesn’t want to be here anymore. I would love for them to get some sort of value back, but TA has been absolute trash this season. But even if his value was good, Hahn isn’t creative enough to get a quality prospect back for him. 

My hope is Hahn gets fired before the deadline. Hell, giving KW another crack at it or giving the GM role to Getz might actually captivate my interest for the time being. But letting Hahn engineer any more roster destruction and construction just seems borderline insane at this point. 
It would be nice if JR woke up from his nap and finally pulled the trigger on a GM switch prior to the trade deadline. 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by GreatScott82

[Harold's Leg Lift]

58 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said:

My problem with the Sox is that their scouting, development and player improvement infrastructure has to be the worst in baseball. 

I can't get over it. Nothing will change until they invest properly in those departments. If they did, Jerry's payroll restrictions wouldn't be a big issue. They'd be able to identify talent that fits within their budget. If the Rays can do it, anyone can. 

 

And oh, they still don't know the value of getting on base from an offensive standpoint. 

What about the analytics dept?  The amateur scouting dept is excellent they just get screwed over because of the poor player development dept and continual FO interference.  The pro scouting dept is pretty much nonexistent because Hahn had most of them "retired" (not that he ever listened to them in the first place) so he could increase his analytics dept.  How has that department been doing?  Good?  

[Lip Man 1]

30 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Regarding Jerry's loyalty, here are some comments I found from a Jun, 2017 article. More delusional comments from Jerry's perspective versus the actual reality.

https://www.sportsmockery.com/chicago-bulls/jerry-reinsdorf-loyal-bulls-front-office/

Last week, Bulls and White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf made a rare public appearance at the Intersport Brand Engagement Summit in Chicago. He gave a brief interview to Abraham D. Markour of Sports Business Daily and openly discussed his penchant for being loyal to his employees within both organizations.

Here is what Reinsdorf had to say:

“I TRY TO BE LOYAL ONLY TO PEOPLE WHO DESERVE THE LOYALTY. I HOPE I’M NOT LOYAL TO PEOPLE WHO DON’T DESERVE IT. WE TRY TO RUN THIS PLACE LIKE A FAMILY BUSINESS. IN OUR EMPLOYEE MANUAL, PEOPLE ARE DIRECTED TO CALL EVERYBODY BY THEIR FIRST NAMES, NO MR. OR MRS. WE WANT EVERYBODY TO FEEL FREE TO TALK TO EVERYBODY AND GO INTO ANY OFFICE TO TALK, ANY TIME THEY WANT. WHEN YOU DO THAT, YOU GET GOOD PEOPLE, YOU GET PEOPLE WHO LIKE THEIR JOBS. SO THE FACT THAT SOMEBODY MIGHT BE HERE 25 YEARS IS NOT BECAUSE I’M LOYAL, IT’S BECAUSE THAT PERSON IS DOING A GOOD JOB AND ENJOYS THE WORK ENVIRONMENT.” – JERRY REINSDORF

Here's another quote that makes you do a double take:

“Eddie and I never discussed how to talk to reporters. We’ve just been ourselves. I always though Jack Kennedy was the kind of person I looked up to in that regard. He always gave the media a fair shake and understood you guys have a job to do. Without responsible people willing to divulge some accurate information, it’s hard to do it right. It was a much better approach then Nixon, who figured the media, was his enemy. Doing it Kennedy’s way just makes a lot more sense to me. After all, nobody can buy the kind of advertising Chicago teams get. What other line of work finds newspapers assigning people to follow you around and write about how the business is doing every day? At Balcor, we have to hire a public relations firm to get our names in the paper. When baseball teams get that for free, it makes sense to cooperate.” – Jerry Reinsdorf to Bob Logan. From the book ‘Miracle On 35^th Street.’ Pg. 154. Published 1983.

[Chicago White Sox]

15 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

What about the analytics dept?  The amateur scouting dept is excellent they just get screwed over because of the poor player development dept and continual FO interference.  The pro scouting dept is pretty much nonexistent because Hahn had most of them "retired" (not that he ever listened to them in the first place) so he could increase his analytics dept.  How has that department been doing?  Good?  

Harold - Is it fair to say we had a high-end pro scouting department under KW?  I feel like the results speak for themselves during his tenure, but I recall there were some really well regarded scouts who seemed to have “retired” sometime after Hahn took over.  Dave Yoakum is the only name I can recall at this time.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

Dave Yoakum was a fantastic scout who was "retired" and unfortunately recently passed away.  Doug Laumann and Richard Dotson were a couple more excellent longtime scouts who were "retired" so Hahn could increase his analytics dept.  The organization is in such an unbelievable mess it's almost hard to believe they let it get so bad.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Jerry wants to win.  I literally despise him as our owner, but I don’t believe he’s ok with 2nd to 4th place finishes year after year.  The problem is he will only attempt to win in his own unique way, which requires being fiscally responsible and risk adverse.  And a complete lack of accountability with his front office has caused our organization to fall behind the times.

KW was actually a pretty good GM prior to the analytics revolution taking ahold of the game because he could scout and was willing to take some risks.  But with analytics and other modern player development / scouting processes in place now, we simply can’t catch-up because our front lacks any real vision and is way too insular.

Regardless, I don’t think Jerry is ok with cashing in checks until he leaves this world.  At his age, the desire to win should be higher than ever, which is evident by top 10 payrolls the past two years.  Unfortunately Rick just spent the funds in a horribly inefficient fashion.

Some other big differences.

1) Lost niche of staying healthy when Herm Schneider departed.

2) Cuban Connection almost completely dried up

3) DR and Venezuela and Asia/Pacific Rim dry markets for the Sox going on two decades now…you can sustain yourself as a small market team like the Guardians, Rays, Pirates and Reds unearthing superstars there

 

[caulfield12]

Hahn said they won’t go all in for the postseason if there’s no realistic path forward to win.

Does Atlanta now being 16-2 versus the AL and NL Central provide a better example of the Herculean task ahead?

Let’s keep in mind they’re trailing three teams here…not just one or even two.

[The Mighty Mite]

1 hour ago, GreatScott82 said:

Blowing it up will just confirm that Hahn’s rebuild was a complete failure. Firing Pedro Grifol will also confirm that Hahn’s hire was a complete failure. We all know Rick and Kenny care more about “proving fans wrong” than actually doing the most logical and decent thing. Because of this, they prolong misery and consequently let players of value actually lose value in the process. Outside of firing Rick Hahn, which should have already happened, (but we all know it won’t ever happen while Jerry is alive), I’m pretty sure we can all expect a half ass “retool” 

I fully expect no more than the rentals to be traded: Giolito, Grandal, Lynn, Gravemen and Kelly, 

I don’t think Hahn should be allowed to consider trading guys like Vaughn, Cease, Robert or Kopech. And I’m not even sure what kind of value TA has at this point. It’s safe to say that he’s not the SS of the future and that he doesn’t want to be here anymore. I would love for them to get some sort of value back, but TA has been absolute trash this season. But even if his value was good, Hahn isn’t creative enough to get a quality prospect back for him. 

My hope is Hahn gets fired before the deadline. Hell, giving KW another crack at it or giving the GM role to Getz might actually captivate my interest for the time being. But letting Hahn engineer any more roster destruction and construction just seems borderline insane at this point. 
It would be nice if JR woke up from his nap and finally pulled the trigger on a GM switch prior to the trade deadline. 

 

Pretty good except giving the GM job to Getz, I still haven’t figured out why he’s the Minor League director, what were his qualifications, oh yeah, he played for the Sox.

[Lip Man 1]

24 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Pretty good except giving the GM job to Getz, I still haven’t figured out why he’s the Minor League director, what were his qualifications, oh yeah, he played for the Sox.

He went to Michigan just like Hahn.

[South Side Hit Men]

4 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I agree with you that he wants to win his way and have stated that for many years but he just recently said about a month ago that not finishing first doesn't mean you had a bad season:

"Sports is a business of failure but the fact that you finish second or third or fourth it doesn’t mean you had a bad year."- jerry Reinsdorf May 1, 2023. 

He's been saying for decades to people in the industry that it's best to target finishing in 2nd place and dangle carrots in front of (gullible) fans.

 

He has been operating that way for 42 years and counting. 2005 was the lone year the White Sox advanced in the playoffs, and it took several unexpected career years for it to happen.

[reiks12]

19 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

He's been saying for decades to people in the industry that it's best to target finishing in 2nd place and dangle carrots in front of (gullible) fans.

 

He has been operating that way for 42 years and counting. 2005 was the lone year the White Sox advanced in the playoffs, and it took several unexpected career years for it to happen.

Had he just ran the team correctly and gone for first place all these years he would have made way more money? I don't understand the logic. 

[FloydBannister1983]

3 hours ago, GreatScott82 said:

Blowing it up will just confirm that Hahn’s rebuild was a complete failure. Firing Pedro Grifol will also confirm that Hahn’s hire was a complete failure. We all know Rick and Kenny care more about “proving fans wrong” than actually doing the most logical and decent thing. Because of this, they prolong misery and consequently let players of value actually lose value in the process. Outside of firing Rick Hahn, which should have already happened, (but we all know it won’t ever happen while Jerry is alive), I’m pretty sure we can all expect a half ass “retool” 

I fully expect no more than the rentals to be traded: Giolito, Grandal, Lynn, Gravemen and Kelly, 

I don’t think Hahn should be allowed to consider trading guys like Vaughn, Cease, Robert or Kopech. And I’m not even sure what kind of value TA has at this point. It’s safe to say that he’s not the SS of the future and that he doesn’t want to be here anymore. I would love for them to get some sort of value back, but TA has been absolute trash this season. But even if his value was good, Hahn isn’t creative enough to get a quality prospect back for him. 

My hope is Hahn gets fired before the deadline. Hell, giving KW another crack at it or giving the GM role to Getz might actually captivate my interest for the time being. But letting Hahn engineer any more roster destruction and construction just seems borderline insane at this point. 
It would be nice if JR woke up from his nap and finally pulled the trigger on a GM switch prior to the trade deadline. 

 

If they give the job to Getz you might as well get ready for more of the same.  He was supposed to revamp the minor leagues based on his one year in KC when they won while he was getting coffee for the higher ups. His minor leagues stink.  He’s completely unqualified based on his resume.  I suppose he’s a lock to be Hahn’s replacement.

[South Side Hit Men]

22 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

Had he just ran the team correctly and gone for first place all these years he would have made way more money? I don't understand the logic. 

My read is to consistently have your team in an actual "multi-championship competitive window", you need to make significant investments in your front office, scouting, player development, analytics and managerial / coaching staff. You also need to fully fund your international slot money, have a 40 man roster of quality players who can cover normal year to year injuries every team faces.

Jerry has never been interested in any of it. He hires the cheapest inexperienced person, spends the least on all of the front office aspects noted above, and their primary successes in the free agent market have come from bargain deals like McCann, Dye, Cueto and others, and he prefers just about any solid plus player walk once they reach FA, with a few exceptions like Konerko who gave Jerry his ball.

[Balta1701]

19 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

Had he just ran the team correctly and gone for first place all these years he would have made way more money? I don't understand the logic. 

Yes I would say there is a very good chance this is correct. Look at the ticket sales and interest that this organization got after 2005 - they averaged 36,511 a game! That's almost twice what they're averaging now! Imagine the TV dollars that had to come with that, with people actually tuning in. And since the Reinsdorfs own a lot of the parking area, that's pure profit for them, rather than the half empty lots you find today. 

He might not keep up those same numbers, and eventually they'd have to rebuild, but you can regularly see other franchises like this who are very successful. The Phillies are my favorite example - won the 2008 World Series, attendance spike up to 44,000 a game. Had to rebuild, by 2017 were down to a very WhiteSox like 24000 a game. Signed Harper, big attendance spike. Went to the World Series last year, back up to 39,000 a game. This is normal for franchises that are regularly competitive, they are super profitable because they pack their park, they get eyes tuning in, they sell big endorsement and ad deals, etc. Aside from the Mets and maybe the Padres, teams like this are raking in money, and they're getting huge spikes in their franchise value on top of it.

Jerry Reinsdorf is literally watching his franchise wither away in front of him. Excluding COVID weirdness, he's going to go a decade at or near the bottom 1/3 of the league in attendance. People aren't interested in his franchise, they're finding other things of interest because the White Sox are regularly so bad. The franchise value is hurt, the revenue state is poor, all because of the decisions him and his top staff are making. When it really hits the fan is going to be 2029/2030 when their sweetheart deal for the stadium expires, and you wind up with the White Sox wanting a new stadium and them being laughed out of Springfield by the state legislature. 

[NCsoxfan]

I’m great to blow it up. Just can’t trust Hahn to oversee such an endeavor 

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, NCsoxfan said:

I’m great to blow it up. Just can’t trust Hahn to oversee such an endeavor 

Are you willing to trust Rick Hahn trying again to turn a 4th place team into a contender on the fly, by trading away minor leaguers and making dumpster diving signings of veterans? 

[baseball_gal_aly]

5 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

What about the analytics dept?  The amateur scouting dept is excellent they just get screwed over because of the poor player development dept and continual FO interference.  The pro scouting dept is pretty much nonexistent because Hahn had most of them "retired" (not that he ever listened to them in the first place) so he could increase his analytics dept.  How has that department been doing?  Good?  

That's an issue as well, was an oversight on my part. 

[Bob Sacamano]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Are you willing to trust Rick Hahn trying again to turn a 4th place team into a contender on the fly, by trading away minor leaguers and making dumpster diving signings of veterans? 

That is the more likely route. Trade off the rentals, trade off any dead money, and then sign stop gaps for next year. Basically what they would do if they blow it up and tease everyone anyway since they need some MLB filler. Hopefully, you’d have a couple more guys to deal next deadline.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Bob Sacamano

[Balta1701]

11 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

That is the more likely route. Trade off the rentals, trade off any dead money, and then sign stop gaps for next year. Basically what they would do if they blow it up and tease everyone anyway since they need some MLB filler. Hopefully, you’d have a couple more guys to deal next deadline.

I know it’s the more likely route. It’s also the route Rick Hahn has been the absolute worst at. That’s how we got 2015 and 2016, traded away 2 MVP candidates, gave contracts to guys like Austin Jackson and Melky Cabrera, drafted relievers with our first round picks. 

Every year the White Sox tried to do that set them back 2 years. The idea of Hahn doing this again should be nightmare fuel.

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I know it’s the more likely route. It’s also the route Rick Hahn has been the absolute worst at. That’s how we got 2015 and 2016, traded away 2 MVP candidates, gave contracts to guys like Austin Jackson and Melky Cabrera, drafted relievers with our first round picks. 

Every year the White Sox tried to do that set them back 2 years. The idea of Hahn doing this again should be nightmare fuel.

He’s not going to be fired. Any way the organization goes is nightmare fuel.

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I know it’s the more likely route. It’s also the route Rick Hahn has been the absolute worst at. That’s how we got 2015 and 2016, traded away 2 MVP candidates, gave contracts to guys like Austin Jackson and Melky Cabrera, drafted relievers with our first round picks. 

Every year the White Sox tried to do that set them back 2 years. The idea of Hahn doing this again should be nightmare fuel.

Melky Cabrera was simply Benintendi a decade earlier. 

The difference is he kept the deal limited to three years. 

Going too long with Lynn (extension) Keuchel Grandal and now Benintendi has been the death of Hahn. Obviously, the health of Hendriks, too. 

Always go one year too short rather than one year too long. 

 

Hahn did get lucky in one aspect...AJ Pollock and Jose Abreu have been among the worst players in baseball this year. 

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes I would say there is a very good chance this is correct. Look at the ticket sales and interest that this organization got after 2005 - they averaged 36,511 a game! That's almost twice what they're averaging now! Imagine the TV dollars that had to come with that, with people actually tuning in. And since the Reinsdorfs own a lot of the parking area, that's pure profit for them, rather than the half empty lots you find today. 

He might not keep up those same numbers, and eventually they'd have to rebuild, but you can regularly see other franchises like this who are very successful. The Phillies are my favorite example - won the 2008 World Series, attendance spike up to 44,000 a game. Had to rebuild, by 2017 were down to a very WhiteSox like 24000 a game. Signed Harper, big attendance spike. Went to the World Series last year, back up to 39,000 a game. This is normal for franchises that are regularly competitive, they are super profitable because they pack their park, they get eyes tuning in, they sell big endorsement and ad deals, etc. Aside from the Mets and maybe the Padres, teams like this are raking in money, and they're getting huge spikes in their franchise value on top of it.

Jerry Reinsdorf is literally watching his franchise wither away in front of him. Excluding COVID weirdness, he's going to go a decade at or near the bottom 1/3 of the league in attendance. People aren't interested in his franchise, they're finding other things of interest because the White Sox are regularly so bad. The franchise value is hurt, the revenue state is poor, all because of the decisions him and his top staff are making. When it really hits the fan is going to be 2029/2030 when their sweetheart deal for the stadium expires, and you wind up with the White Sox wanting a new stadium and them being laughed out of Springfield by the state legislature. 

I'm guessing JR will no longer be running the team by then. 

[GreatScott82]

7 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Pretty good except giving the GM job to Getz, I still haven’t figured out why he’s the Minor League director, what were his qualifications, oh yeah, he played for the Sox.

Getz will likely suck too. But at this point of the teams current misery, anything is better than Rick Hahn. 

[Bob Sacamano]

Might as well call up Colas to work on what he needs to at the MLB level. Already got the extra year of control.

[ChiSox59]

23 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Might as well call up Colas to work on what he needs to at the MLB level. Already got the extra year of control.

Yeah...I have to imagine that is imminent.  Everyone has seen enough of the Sheets/Frazier platoon.