Sox Draft 2023

[The Kids Can Play]

14 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Yeah, but IMO none of those guys are hall of famers if they never took steroids anyway. Palmeiro’s about the worst of those, you need his steroid inflated numbers but for him to never be caught.

Of course we will never know and it's all speculation, but I disagree with you and feel ARod, Bonds and Clemens you didn't mention, would all be in the HOF if they didn't use steroids.

If you recall early in ARod's career before steroids, when he was thinner, he was putting up big numbers as a SS in Seattle. ARod admitted he didn't start using steroids until the Yankees. Likewise Bonds won two MVP's before steroids when he was much thinner and a quicker player. Clemens as well had amazing numbers prior to doing steroids.

I do agree with you that Palmeiro and Sosa would not have been that good without steroids.

[bmags]

one clip I desperately wish was on youtube is the end of the game when the sox were vs. giants and up 1-0. Bartolo Colon had pitched an unbelievable game which included 3 ks of Barry Bonds where he climbed the ladder on him and got him to swing high and inside.

There was a man on base, and bartolo was pitching in the 9th vs Bonds. He was going to the well again. He had him at 2 strikes, and then threw him that high and inside pitch...and Bonds got around on it and smacked a 2 run home run.

It was insane. It was sort of like if we faced ohtani and instead of giving up a home run every at bat to show how great he is, we actually challenged the hell otu of him only to see he couldn't be stopped.

[Balta1701]

42 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Of course we will never know and it's all speculation, but I disagree with you and feel ARod, Bonds and Clemens you didn't mention, would all be in the HOF if they didn't use steroids.

If you recall early in ARod's career before steroids, when he was thinner, he was putting up big numbers as a SS in Seattle. ARod admitted he didn't start using steroids until the Yankees. Likewise Bonds won two MVP's before steroids when he was much thinner and a quicker player. Clemens as well had amazing numbers prior to doing steroids.

I do agree with you that Palmeiro and Sosa would not have been that good without steroids.

ARod said that he didn't start using steroids until he was with the Yankees and he tested positive in the 2003 trial test wave also. Sigh. He did this for years, and as soon as he had any struggles with the Yankees - oops time for a new supplier. My opinion of ARod - give me any reason to think that he didn't use steroids in high school, before he was a #1 pick? 

Bonds - the 1980s were a complete Wild West. Why on Earth should I assume that he was clean then? His purported "I'm going to go on the hard stuff" remark is totally consistent with the idea that he spent years doing softer stuff. 

[The Kids Can Play]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

ARod said that he didn't start using steroids until he was with the Yankees and he tested positive in the 2003 trial test wave also. Sigh. He did this for years, and as soon as he had any struggles with the Yankees - oops time for a new supplier. My opinion of ARod - give me any reason to think that he didn't use steroids in high school, before he was a #1 pick? 

Bonds - the 1980s were a complete Wild West. Why on Earth should I assume that he was clean then? His purported "I'm going to go on the hard stuff" remark is totally consistent with the idea that he spent years doing softer stuff. 

Btw, I was talking about the numbers for ARod during the Seattle days which was from 1004-2000. He was with Texas in 2003. Yes I stand corrected and made a mistake and he did start using then in 2001-2003, I looked it up and I found where he stated he started them in Texas and not NY.  He said the pressure of being able to live up to the largest sports contract ever signed, was the pressure and motivation to start using them. However ARod's first 7 years in Seattle were huge HOF numbers minus the steroids. Again go check the video on his size change.

Back in your wild west days, all you have to do is go watch You Tube videos of Bonds and compare it to the days when he played for the Giants. I'm sorry, but it's a fact you can't say that lean and lacking mass, if you are doing heavy steroids, Just compare their sizes. ARod and Bonds were so much significantly thinner and still put up MVP numbers. Don't forget Barry Bonds was a super thin player back in his Pirate days and stealing 50-60 bases a season besides wining two MVP's 

 

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Btw, I was talking about the numbers for ARod during the Seattle days which was from 1004-2000. He was with Texas in 2003. Yes I stand corrected and made a mistake and he did start using then in 2001-2003, I looked it up and I found where he stated he started them in Texas and not NY.  He said the pressure of being able to live up to the largest sports contract ever signed, was the pressure and motivation to start using them. However ARod's first 7 years in Seattle were huge HOF numbers minus the steroids. Again go check the video on his size change.

Back in your wild west days, all you have to do is go watch You Tube videos of Bonds and compare it to the days when he played for the Giants. I'm sorry, but it's a fact you can't say that lean and lacking mass, if you are doing heavy steroids, Just compare their sizes. ARod and Bonds were so much significantly thinner and still put up MVP numbers. Don't forget Barry Bonds was a super thin player back in his Pirate days and stealing 50-60 bases a season besides wining two MVP's 

 

Yes. Bonds could easily have been on things to help recover from stealing 40 bases a year back in the 1980s without having it cause his body explode, and then his body exploded in 1998-1999 when he switched steroids from the things he had been using to Tetrahydrogestrinone. 

[T R U]

Man, the Rangers were pretty much a 90 loss team all three years ARod was there and he was putting up stupid numbers. Crazy.

[The Kids Can Play]

42 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes. Bonds could easily have been on things to help recover from stealing 40 bases a year back in the 1980s without having it cause his body explode, and then his body exploded in 1998-1999 when he switched steroids from the things he had been using to Tetrahydrogestrinone. 

Well until you give me some documented facts and proof, you are speculating and I'm not buying your novice theories on whether Bonds was using early in his career, when clearly his frame size, mass and leanness do not warrant your wild west theories. Find me the documented evidence. 

As I stated previously neither one of us has proof or knowledge and all we're both doing is just speculating. Hence we will agree to disagree because in a million back and forth debates with you, I will not change my mind.

[The Kids Can Play]

23 hours ago, JTB said:

I know Calvin’s dad pretty well. It will be fun rooting for him.  I did text his dad to say it will be fun to watch his progression but I don’t trust the Sox to develop anyone!  Still, good for Calvin.  Good family.

Well hopefully Rick Hahn will be gone after this season and maybe the Sox can clean up some of garbage player development coaches in the minors so the kid can make it to the majors.

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Well until you give me some documented facts and proof, you are speculating and I'm not buying your novice theories on whether Bonds was using early in his career, when clearly his frame size, mass and leanness do not warrant your wild west theories. Find me the documented evidence. 

As I stated previously neither one of us has proof or knowledge and all we're both doing is just speculating. Hence we will agree to disagree because in a million back and forth debates with you, I will not change my mind.

You're speculating on frame size, mass, and leanness! Come on. Here's a card of the first guy in MLB who was suspended for steroids once the public suspensions started:

Here's a white sox player who was using:

The idea that only big guys were on steroids and you can judge this by your eyes has long been known to be laughable.

[The Kids Can Play]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

You're speculating on frame size, mass, and leanness! Come on. Here's a card of the first guy in MLB who was suspended for steroids once the public suspensions started:

Here's a white sox player who was using:

The idea that only big guys were on steroids and you can judge this by your eyes has long been known to be laughable.

Once again you did not follow my points accurately. I never said only big guys use steroids. What I said is, when you are initially thin and smaller in mass like ARod, Sosa and Bonds were once....and then all of a sudden they get thicker, stronger and not as lean anymore...that is the visual proof.

Keep in mind even though we know Bonds used steroids, he was never officially caught with any positive results. 

BTW, since you want to play the photo game let's compare these photos:

Barry probably before using: 

Barry after using:

 

So you still want to tell me Bonds was suing in the Pirate days. LMAO!

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Once again you did not follow my points accurately. I never said only big guys use steroids. What I said is, when you are initially thin and smaller in mass like ARod, Sosa and Bonds were once....and then all of a sudden they get thicker, stronger and not as lean anymore...that is the visual proof.

Keep in mind even though we know Bonds used steroids, he was never officially caught with any positive results. 

BTW, since you want to play the photo game let's compare these photos:

Barry probably before using: 

Barry after using:

 

So you still want to tell me Bonds was suing in the Pirate days. LMAO!

You literally just said Barry Bonds can't possibly have been using in the 1980s because he was skinny! That's not evidence in the least. All you've proven to me is that THG is an incredibly effective steroid!

Let's try this:

Pablo Ozuna on steroids:

Barry Bonds, just as skinny.

 

[The Kids Can Play]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

You literally just said Barry Bonds can't possibly have been using in the 1980s because he was skinny! That's not evidence in the least. All you've proven to me is that THG is an incredibly effective steroid!

Let's try this:

Pablo Ozuna on steroids:

Barry Bonds, just as skinny.

 

I guess you need better glasses because the two photos of Bonds from the Pirates to the Giants is a night and day difference.

I love how you always love being the contrarian in these battles with everyone in SoxTalk.

 

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I guess you need better glasses because the two photos of Bonds from the Pirates to the Giants is a night and day difference.

I love how you always love being the contrarian in these battles with everyone in SoxTalk.

 

Barry Bonds on the same steroid as Pablo Ozuna:

Barry Bonds once he started the Cream and the Clear, BALCO's infamous steroids containing Tetrahydrogestrinone:

All your assertions that he was skinny are telling me is that he switched steroids to something more potent. This is what happened when he switched from soft-core stuff to ""some hard-core stuff", exactly as he phrased it.

[The Kids Can Play]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

Barry Bonds on the same steroid as Pablo Ozuna:

Barry Bonds once he started the Cream and the Clear, BALCO's infamous steroids containing Tetrahydrogestrinone:

All your assertions that he was skinny are telling me is that he switched steroids to something more potent. This is what happened when he switched from soft-core stuff to ""some hard-core stuff", exactly as he phrased it.

Btw, do you have these positive test results and documentation to prove your wild assertions that Bonds was on steroids during the Pittsburgh days? No need to reply, as it was a rhetorical question and I know the answer. 

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Btw, do you have these positive test results and documentation to prove your wild assertions that Bonds was on steroids during the Pittsburgh days? No need to reply, as it was a rhetorical question and I know the answer. 

How do you prove he was clean? No need to reply, as it was a rhetorical question and although you insist he was clean, you also have the same amount of proof as I do.

What I do have - a long documented history that he cheated for the full second half of his career. Why I should grant this player the benefit of the doubt like you do, I have no idea.

[The Kids Can Play]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

How do you prove he was clean? No need to reply, as it was a rhetorical question and although you insist he was clean, you also have the same amount of proof as I do.

What I do have - a long documented history that he cheated for the full second half of his career. Why I should grant this player the benefit of the doubt like you do, I have no idea.

As I said in my first response to you...neither one of us has proof and were both guessing.

What someone did in the second half of their career does not constitute they did that in their first half. That is you once again speculating, which is exactly what I'm doing as well. However when you have cases where you see guys get much larger just like Bonds, Sosa and ARod did, I'm not buying your theory. 

Again we can agree to disagree but if you you are still going trying to get a "Win" here on your argument and prove you won the debate....that will be a freezing day in hell before I agree you are right. 

[Quin]

Did the Sox draft a steroid user...?

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Quin said:

Did the Sox draft a steroid user...?

As pleasant and exciting as this White Sox season has been, I figure we're allowed the occasional thread hijacking. 

[Harry Chappas]

6 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Interesting stat, but I never said the SEC had the most HOF players or only one in. My point, which is still a fact today as of 2023, the SEC has the most active players in major league baseball.

Although with the heavy amount of players the SEC sends to majors yearly continues for many years to come, logically and mathematically speaking, the SEC should start getting some players in the HOF.

I think as recently as 10 years ago college baseball wasn't nearly as good as is it is now.  I am sure NIL deals are impacting it greatly but very guys used to get full scholarship money and many had to pay to play at Power 5 conferences.  I am sure they funding to some degree from schools but not like football or basketball. 

[SoxAce]

Balta comparing the advancements of steroids from the 80s to the 00s is hilarious. 

[chitownsportsfan]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

As pleasant and exciting as this White Sox season has been, I figure we're allowed the occasional thread hijacking. 

Spoiler

 

[Kyyle23]

17 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

How do you prove he was clean? No need to reply, as it was a rhetorical question and although you insist he was clean, you also have the same amount of proof as I do.

What I do have - a long documented history that he cheated for the full second half of his career. Why I should grant this player the benefit of the doubt like you do, I have no idea.

Is this long documented history present for Palmeiro as well?  Or is it just because he had a up and down first couple years as a cub and joined Texas so in your mind he is 100 percent guilty because he was on the same team as Juan Gone the entire time?

 

[Balta1701]

40 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Is this long documented history present for Palmeiro as well?  Or is it just because he had a up and down first couple years as a cub and joined Texas so in your mind he is 100 percent guilty because he was on the same team as Juan Gone the entire time?

 

You can decide whether you believe Palmeiro or Canseco, but Canseco's book in 05 named Palmeiro as a guy that Canseco introduced to the stuff when he got to the Rangers. Palmeiro claims this is untrue, as he did before Congress in 2005 while famously pointing his finger at them, but then he tested positive for the exact same steroid that Canseco says he gave him, Winstrol - which Jose wrote that he recommended because you could take it without your body exploding in size and causing suspicion. And that sure sounds like Palmeiro's career arc to me.

I'm not compelled to use the same standard of proof as a court of law to believe someone was a cheater. Given that reality, pretty well defined case to me of a guy who had been using his entire career, expected to get away with it until he retired, and turned defensive when the details came out.

[Kyyle23]

Famous honest man, Jose Canseco.  

you can use whatever standard of proof you want.  Just disappointed you throw things around as fact like this when it’s just Jose’s book.   

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Famous honest man, Jose Canseco.  

you can use whatever standard of proof you want.  Just disappointed you throw things around as fact like this when it’s just Jose’s book.   

People throw around emphatic statements about people being clean early in their careers when they could have used the stuff and gotten away with it consequence-free, when we have plenty of reason to suspect that those same people would have been willing to bend the rules because we know they kept using later in their careers when the league started collecting evidence and the risk of getting caught went up. 

Why is it not equally disappointing when people assert they are totally certain that a player like Bonds was clean early in their career?