Lip Man 1 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Dropped on You Tube. Highly recommend it. They take Sox fan questions and the answers are brutally honest from him and McGuffy. Among the "highlights": *Grandal is the worst free agent signing in Sox history (Even worse than Dunn) *Moncada is the biggest bust in Sox history *When the trades are made in a few weeks Garfein wants accountability from the front office *Grifol hasn't delivered what he said he was going to bring to this team *Anderson should not be batting first or second and that falls on Grifol *Colas should not have been "given" the right field job. Sox should have signed someone. *Rebuild has failed in part because Hahn wasn't allowed to finish the job (i.e. signing Harper) *White Sox have zero leadership and there are issues in the clubhouse among the regular players. No team chemistry Part II with more fan questions (Garfein said he got 2,000 responses) drops Thursday 2 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Counterpoints: Adam Dunn was paid $50 million and p it up precisely 0 fWAR over 4 seasons. Grandal has put up 5 fWAR over 3 seasons for about $60 million. Grandal has been far better. Neither of these match the $13 million we paid for -1.2 fWAR from LaRoche. This is recency bias. Stop saying accountability and say the failure need fired. Colas shouldn’t have even given the job nor Sosa, but that was literally the only way they could keep up the illusion of a full lineup. They couldn’t compete for good FAs at positions they needed and even had to backload the deals for Benintendi and Clevinger just to get them signed, the only other option was to admit how bad the situation was after they held all their pieces at the deadline last year. Bringing these guys up still allowed Hahns apologists to fantasize that the White Sox weren’t destined to flop. While rushing these guys is a problem, it is a minor one and a symptom of the much deeper rot. Signing Harper would Have helped and been a big factor in 2021 and 2022. But it would not have solved the much bigger problems with development and scouting. Not sure I care about the Grifol stuff. This was a clearly bad team coming into the year. The best coach in baseball history would still have a bad team with poor chemistry. Moncada did produce some. In fact he has quite a bit more production than Beckham, or the top pitchers from that 2000 system in Wells and Rauch. There’s also some recency bias here, although I’m ok with an argument since Moncada was a number 1 overall prospect. 4 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 12, 2023 Author Share Posted July 12, 2023 The comment about leadership dovetails exactly with what I was told by sources this past winter: “The problem with this team is there was no real leadership, nobody to hold guys accountable. No red-asses like the Sox had in the past… Carlton Fisk, Jack McDowell, A.J. Pierzynski. Paul Konerko was a quiet guy but when we weren’t doing well he’d get really pissed. Elvis Andrus tried to supply some leadership when he came and Lucas Giolito tried.” “I’d come into the locker room after a game and you couldn’t tell if they won or lost, just nothing.” “You’d go in the locker room and all the Latino guys would be in one place, the whites in another and the African-Americans someplace else.” “I had heard that groups were apart and not close but part of that could be human nature, language divisions for example. I know the Latin guys were always around Jose’s locker, Moncada was always there. The Sox locker room is a big square so guys aren’t close to start with, the Cubs locker room is circular. I don’t know if that was by design or what but that lends itself to guys getting together.” “The problem is some of these guys just don’t care, they want to win sure but they already have gotten their money with these contracts before they proved anything. Moncada would strike out and just walk back to the dugout like no big deal, he fouls a ball off and now he can’t play for three days? His contract makes him untradable but he needs to go.” “There was a lack of urgency the entire season. People would say the right things but they never translated.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Counterpoints: Adam Dunn was paid $50 million and p it up precisely 0 fWAR over 4 seasons. Grandal has put up 5 fWAR over 3 seasons for about $60 million. Grandal has been far better. Neither of these match the $13 million we paid for -1.2 fWAR from LaRoche. This is recency bias. Stop saying accountability and say the failure need fired. Colas shouldn’t have even given the job nor Sosa, but that was literally the only way they could keep up the illusion of a full lineup. They couldn’t compete for good FAs at positions they needed and even had to backload the deals for Benintendi and Clevinger just to get them signed, the only other option was to admit how bad the situation was after they held all their pieces at the deadline last year. Bringing these guys up still allowed Hahns apologists to fantasize that the White Sox weren’t destined to flop. While rushing these guys is a problem, it is a minor one and a symptom of the much deeper rot. Signing Harper would Have helped and been a big factor in 2021 and 2022. But it would not have solved the much bigger problems with development and scouting. Not sure I care about the Grifol stuff. This was a clearly bad team coming into the year. The best coach in baseball history would still have a bad team with poor chemistry. Moncada did produce some. In fact he has quite a bit more production than Beckham, or the top pitchers from that 2000 system in Wells and Rauch. There’s also some recency bias here, although I’m ok with an argument since Moncada was a number 1 overall prospect. Harper's presence with his elbow injury wouldn't have solved the RF issue for 2023. Whether they could have made it to the playoffs in 2022 with Harper is another question altogether. We'll never know the impact he could have had on that clubhouse in turning things around. There would at least be a puncher's chance, even in 2023. Arguably would have been worth 100-150k in season attendance alone. Edited July 12, 2023 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 12, 2023 Author Share Posted July 12, 2023 To provide some context: They felt Grandal was the worst signing ever because he was a catcher a very important position as the "leader" of the pitching staff. Dunn was just a DH. They said Grandal was signed because he was a great framer, they said that isn't the case. His defense has badly slipped. Regarding Harper they said his signing would have changed the perception of the franchise both nationally and locally and they said his signing would have had an impact on other free agents wanting to join him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 sounds like the ramblings of a drunk moron. you can get that for free from me. none of his points have much basis in reality. 4 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Chuck tries to take the negative wheel and drives right off a cliff lol. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 6 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said: sounds like the ramblings of a drunk moron. you can get that for free from me. none of his points have much basis in reality. Chuck needs to go as well. Ditto camera facing person on their television broadcasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmy U Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Isn’t Keppinger the worst FA signing in Sox history? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Grandal isn't even close to the worst FA in Sox history. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Timmy U said: Isn’t Keppinger the worst FA signing in Sox history? Probably. Kelvin Herrera was also a really bad signing with very questionable logic from the get go. Jaime Navarro was a pretty big bust, especially when they considered going after Clemens that off-season. LaRoche should be in the discussion for how he both sucked as a player and single-handily destroyed the clubhouse in 2016. The Grandal statement is pretty ridiculous. The blocking has been bad but he has been a good framer and he actually hit well his first two years. Hell, hit bat carried us in the 2H of 2021 (his wRC+ was nearly double of James McCann that year). Yes, he has been bad in 2022 & 2023 and I’m more than open to call him a disappointment. But without question, Dallas Keuchel was a much worse free agent signing. Literally got 2.2 wins from him for $47M and he couldn’t last the duration of a three year contract. Plus he sounds like another douche in the clubhouse who blamed everyone but himself for his s%*# pitching outside of 2020. Edited July 12, 2023 by Chicago White Sox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 I find the stuff about Moncada and Anderson just strange. Moncada gets hurt, the team states that it is relatively minor, and he will miss a couple days. Then he disappears for about a month. A team doesn't have to tell fans everything about injuries, but the things surrounding Moncada don't add up. What has happened to Anderson? Has he lost his skills? Is he playing hurt? No HRs at the ASB? Average in the low .200s? Whatever has happened to him, he doesn't belong at the top of the order. There are plenty of things wrong with the White Sox, and I bet we fans don't know the half of it. 2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Are you all seriously arguing over the level of bad of Grandal and, also, who gets to claim knowing it more? Soxtalk gotta Soxtalk, I guess. ? 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Was listening to Ozzie on the score… While I’ve always found it laughable bringing him back because Ozzie’s latter years were rough… Its not lost on me that he may be the only person with ties to the org that actually holds them to high standards. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Highland said: I find the stuff about Moncada and Anderson just strange. Moncada gets hurt, the team states that it is relatively minor, and he will miss a couple days. Then he disappears for about a month. A team doesn't have to tell fans everything about injuries, but the things surrounding Moncada don't add up. What has happened to Anderson? Has he lost his skills? Is he playing hurt? No HRs at the ASB? Average in the low .200s? Whatever has happened to him, he doesn't belong at the top of the order. There are plenty of things wrong with the White Sox, and I bet we fans don't know the half of it. I don't really think its that weird. Moncada has a bad back. Its bothered him all season. If you've ever dealt with any kind of back injury, you know it can be debilitating. You can be feeling better for a week, and then one weird movement and you're back to square 1. Its a brutal turn of events for the Sox and for Yoan, but back injuries can be brutal. TA is hurt. Hanser fucked his knee. He changed his batting mechanics and was hardly using his legs for awhile. He completely lost his swing, and now he's mentally fuc*ed. I do honestly think 2023 is a lost season for Tim at this point, but I also believe he will come back in 2024 looking more like the TA we all know. Whether or not that will be with the Sox remains to be seen, but I see no good reason to trade him. The FA SS market is putrid and headlined by Ahmed Rosario, Brandon Crawford, Enrique Hernandez, Isiah Kiner-Falefa and Elvis Andrus. That alone should give TA at 1/$14M a lot more value than once might think before they look into the larger picture. Edited July 12, 2023 by ChiSox59 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFAthewave69420 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Remember AJ Pollock declining his option and taking less money? He must have hated being a Sox and many in that locker room probably wish they had an escape too. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, DFAthewave69420 said: Remember AJ Pollock declining his option and taking less money? He must have hated being a Sox and many in that locker room probably wish they had an escape too. Pollock took $1M less guaranteed $, but gave himself the ability to earn that $1M back plus another $2M in incentives. So there's a bit more to the story. $5M buyout + $7M guaranteed with an additional $3M in incentives versus $13M player option. Not saying all is rosey in the Sox clubhouse, but AJ Pollock didn't exactly seem like a guy that was super fun to be around. Frankly, he did the Sox a favor by saving them $7M on a poor defensive weak side platoon OF, though honestly, I'd probably have rather give him those RF at bats against LHP than Clint Frazier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 AJ Pollock has a 48 wRC+, it was one of the most fortunate things to happen to the sox in my lifetime. But a continued trend of Hahn buying players just as they are about to implode and end their career. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 48 minutes ago, bmags said: Was listening to Ozzie on the score… While I’ve always found it laughable bringing him back because Ozzie’s latter years were rough… Its not lost on me that he may be the only person with ties to the org that actually holds them to high standards. He’d be a complete disaster though if brought back. I love Ozzie, but his ignorance towards saber metrics would leave him at a massive disadvantage. We all saw how overmatched TLR was and Ozzie would be no different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said: He’d be a complete disaster though if brought back. I love Ozzie, but his ignorance towards saber metrics would leave him at a massive disadvantage. We all saw how overmatched TLR was and Ozzie would be no different. In a perfect world, yes. In the world the White Sox live in, I would welcome Ozzie back with open arms since I know they aren't going to be going after up and comers or forward thinking guys anyways. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 47 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: I don't really think its that weird. Moncada has a bad back. Its bothered him all season. If you've ever dealt with any kind of back injury, you know it can be debilitating. You can be feeling better for a week, and then one weird movement and you're back to square 1. Its a brutal turn of events for the Sox and for Yoan, but back injuries can be brutal. TA is hurt. Hanser fucked his knee. He changed his batting mechanics and was hardly using his legs for awhile. He completely lost his swing, and now he's mentally fuc*ed. I do honestly think 2023 is a lost season for Tim at this point, but I also believe he will come back in 2024 looking more like the TA we all know. Whether or not that will be with the Sox remains to be seen, but I see no good reason to trade him. The FA SS market is putrid and headlined by Ahmed Rosario, Brandon Crawford, Enrique Hernandez, Isiah Kiner-Falefa and Elvis Andrus. That alone should give TA at 1/$14M a lot more value than once might think before they look into the larger picture. How many teams are actually going to be looking for SS or middle infield help? The Giants, since Crawford is on the list. Boston needs help, but they do get Story back and no one knows what they’re doing anyway. The Dodgers could use some depth but also expect Lux back. Teams that are set or who have already spent at that position: NYY, TBR, Bal, Tor, Min, Det, Tex, Hou, Sea, SDP, Ari, CHC, STL, MIL, Cin, Atl, NYM, Phi. Not even sure where a $10 million offer would come from for most of those guys. Maybe some teams would want depth or would shuffle guys around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 8 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said: He’d be a complete disaster though if brought back. I love Ozzie, but his ignorance towards saber metrics would leave him at a massive disadvantage. We all saw how overmatched TLR was and Ozzie would be no different. I'm not advising he be brought back, I'm just saying of the entire white sox ecosystem it's pretty much only Ozzie who thinks the white sox should hold themselves to the standards of being world series champions and not "just doin their best gaharsh!" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn12 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Yeah....I REALLY dislike Yasmani Grandal and that signing, but.....not even close to the worst signing in Sox history. Recency bias, for sure. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmmmbeeer Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 10 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Harper's presence with his elbow injury wouldn't have solved the RF issue for 2023. Whether they could have made it to the playoffs in 2022 with Harper is another question altogether. We'll never know the impact he could have had on that clubhouse in turning things around. There would at least be a puncher's chance, even in 2023. Arguably would have been worth 100-150k in season attendance alone. Their point, and one I agree with, wasn't just what Harper's numbers would bring to the team. They believe that he's precisely the kind of player who could have come in and held every teammate accountable....ride them, hard. They also intimated, as with other deals, that Hahn is trying to GM with one hand tied behind his back. Everything they've heard points to him being essentially neutered as a GM. We saw this in FULL public view when TLR was hired. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmmmbeeer Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 2 hours ago, Highland said: I find the stuff about Moncada and Anderson just strange. Moncada gets hurt, the team states that it is relatively minor, and he will miss a couple days. Then he disappears for about a month. A team doesn't have to tell fans everything about injuries, but the things surrounding Moncada don't add up. What has happened to Anderson? Has he lost his skills? Is he playing hurt? No HRs at the ASB? Average in the low .200s? Whatever has happened to him, he doesn't belong at the top of the order. There are plenty of things wrong with the White Sox, and I bet we fans don't know the half of it. To use Chuck's phrasing, the Sox "have lost Moncada". In context, I took it to mean he wants nothing to do with the team, doesn't try in the least, and seemed to be hinting at him being a clubhouse cancer. They had similar comments regarding Eloy. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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