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[baseball_gal_aly]

I know a lot of fans don't want to hear this, but I don't really blame Moncada that much for his failure. In 2018-19 the ball exploded off of his bat and he had elite EV metrics. Then he got covid and wasn't the same guy. It's just s%*# luck tbh, he got sick and injured and it altered his talent level. It sucks but that's the way the cookie crumbles. 

I don't have a problem with him being called a bust, because it’s objectively true, but it's more bust-injuries than bust-lazy. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by baseballgalaly

[The Kids Can Play]

11 minutes ago, Stinky Stanky said:

Smart as you can get, good. Baseball genius, good.  No nonsense guy, good.  Never could relate to younger players, not good.

He was a player then. Now he would be a manager. He doesn't need to relate to the players and be their buddy. He simply needs instill a positive culture where they play hard and respect him. This is something Grifol promised in his press conference when hired, which he clearly has proven he had no clue how to create in the clubhouse, dugout and especially on the field. 

If it's not AJ then fine, but the next Sox manager needs to have some toughness and fire and a resume of success to create the right winning culture and respect. 

[The Kids Can Play]

5 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

Wasn’t Torborg a catcher too?

Yes he was. I forgot him.

[FloydBannister1983]

Just now, The Kids Can Play said:

Yes he was. I forgot him.

Still think he is their best manager since LaRussa I.

[The Kids Can Play]

10 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

Still think he is their best manager since LaRussa I.

He was very good. Hindsight being 20-20, he obviously left the Sox too soon. He only stayed three seasons with the Sox and won the AL Manager of the Year in 1990 wining 94 games and improving from the previous year from 69 wins when he first took over the team. 

Sadly because Jerry was a cheap owner, he was only making 250,000 a year and the NY Mets offered Torborg a 1.7 million contract over 4 years which was pretty close to doubling his Sox salary. Unfortunately for Torborg, the Mets gig didn't go well and early into his 3rd season (1993) he was fired, while his former Sox team finished 94-68 that year.

Can you imagine the conversation when Torborg told Jerry he was leaving for the Mets. Jerry probably replied, "You have gone 181-143 over the last two years for us and you expect me to give you a raise close to $425,000 a year?" "Nah, that's too steep for me." 

I do love going down memory lane and reminding myself what a dumbsh*t Jerry has always been. Our genius owner who thinks he is so much smarter than the other owners. 

[T R U]

46 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said:

I know a lot of fans don't want to hear this, but I don't really blame Moncada that much for his failure. In 2018-19 the ball exploded off of his bat and he had elite EV metrics. Then he got covid and wasn't the same guy. It's just s%*# luck tbh, he got sick and injured and it altered his talent level. It sucks but that's the way the cookie crumbles. 

I don't have a problem with him being called a bust, because it’s objectively true, but it's more bust-injuries than bust-lazy. 

I mean he did have a 4 WAR season in 2021 so its not like the monstars came and sucked up all his talent prior to that

[chitownsportsfan]

47 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said:

I know a lot of fans don't want to hear this, but I don't really blame Moncada that much for his failure. In 2018-19 the ball exploded off of his bat and he had elite EV metrics. Then he got covid and wasn't the same guy. It's just s%*# luck tbh, he got sick and injured and it altered his talent level. It sucks but that's the way the cookie crumbles. 

I don't have a problem with him being called a bust, because it’s objectively true, but it's more bust-injuries than bust-lazy. 

I was a big Moncada fan for various reasons, including because for a minute he was an absolutely elite defensive 3B, Crede like vacuum, but that guy is gone. I think he's just got a bum back. He can't generate the power he did a few years ago, he can't move and run like he did, a bad core will ruin any athlete quick.

At this point he should probably just sit out the rest of the year and if that doesn't clear up the issues when he tries to play next year he should try surgery, exploratory or otherwise.

[Milkman delivers]

1 hour ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

It is funny how far we’ve come from people assuring me credible managers like Girardi (before he became a disaster) would want to manage the Sox?  Now it’s universally accepted and we’re like “Ozzie is the only one besides Grifol who would take the job.”

Yes, that is the most painful thing about the Sox in recent memory. They went from the most desirable position to poison. They could’ve had their choice of any available manager. They chose La Russa, and everything changed in short order.

[Lip Man 1]

27 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I was a big Moncada fan for various reasons, including because for a minute he was an absolutely elite defensive 3B, Crede like vacuum, but that guy is gone. I think he's just got a bum back. He can't generate the power he did a few years ago, he can't move and run like he did, a bad core will ruin any athlete quick.

At this point he should probably just sit out the rest of the year and if that doesn't clear up the issues when he tries to play next year he should try surgery, exploratory or otherwise.

I think his issues go beyond just having a "bad back" in my opinion. 

[Lip Man 1]

35 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

He was very good. Hindsight being 20-20, he obviously left the Sox too soon. He only stayed three seasons with the Sox and won the AL Manager of the Year in 1990 wining 94 games and improving from the previous year from 69 wins when he first took over the team. 

Sadly because Jerry was a cheap owner, he was only making 250,000 a year and the NY Mets offered Torborg a 1.7 million contract over 4 years which was pretty close to doubling his Sox salary. Unfortunately for Torborg, the Mets gig didn't go well and early into his 3rd season (1993) he was fired, while his former Sox team finished 94-68 that year.

Can you imagine the conversation when Torborg told Jerry he was leaving for the Mets. Jerry probably replied, "You have gone 181-143 over the last two years for us and you expect me to give you a raise close to $425,000 a year?" "Nah, that's too steep for me." 

I do love going down memory lane and reminding myself what a dumbsh*t Jerry has always been. Our genius owner who thinks he is so much smarter than the other owners. 

With respect the Torborg situation wasn't what you described. This is from my extensive interview with him in 2010 and we still stay in touch talking every few months about the state of White Sox baseball:

ML: The Sox still won 87 games and looked ready to take the next step when word came that you resigned to take the Mets job. I remember reading that you wanted to be closer to your family in New Jersey, Jeff…but I’ve also heard rumors through the years that some in the front office didn’t care for the way you handled pitchers, specifically Bobby Thigpen who went downhill after 1991. When I’ve asked the guys you managed about that, like Donn Pall, he strongly defended the way you used the bullpen. Can you clear this up for me, why did you leave the White Sox? And were you forced out?

JT: “My mother was in her 80’s at the time but the reason that I left to be closer to my family was just for public relations, we didn’t want to hurt any feelings. I didn’t want to leave the White Sox. I had no desire to leave…why would I? This was a good young team ready to win; my wife and I loved Chicago and our son Dale was just starting out at Northwestern. (Author’s Note: Dale Torborg now works for the White Sox after a career in professional wrestling as a strength coach)

ML: Then obviously by your answer there’s more to the story than was told to fans at the time. What else was going on?

JT: “Later in the season we were in Minnesota for a two game series, it was a must win series for us because we were running out of time and I heard Peter Gammons report on ESPN that my job was in jeopardy. I was thinking, ‘where is this coming from?’ Then the last home stand of the year when we played the Twins again, Ron Schueler came into my office before it started and he closed the door. I was wondering what was going on. Ron said to me, “The Mets called me today and they want to talk with you about the managing job.” I told him, “Ron, I appreciate it but I have no interest.” Ron said, “well think about it and I’ll come back in a few days. We’ll talk again.” I’m sitting there wondering what is going on, because I said I had no interest.”

“So right before the last games, we had a makeup double header; Ron comes back and asks if I thought about the Mets offer. I told him again that I had no interest but then I said “Ron, I’ve got to ask you because this has come up, where I fit in with you and the organization?” He looked at me and said, “I think both of us would feel bad if you turned it down and then something happened.” 

“When he said that I had to think twice about what was happening. Ron and I never had a cross word between us that season but he wanted to hire his own guy, so when the Mets called I took the offer. It was the best thing for me financially but it was the worst move professionally I could have made. Ironically about a half hour after I verbally told the Mets I’d take the job the Yankees called and said they were firing “Stump” Merrill and offered me the position. I told them I had already given my word to the Mets and couldn’t go back on it but I didn’t want to leave the Sox in the first place.” (Author’s Note: Schueler and the organization first contacted former Sox coach Jimmy Leyland, then the manager of the Pirates about the position, but he turned them down instead suggesting his longtime base coach Gene Lamont, who got the job.)

ML: Was there any truth to the rumor that part of the reason the organization was upset with you was because of the way you handled your bullpen and how Bobby Thigpen just fell apart.

JT: “I had heard that I was being criticized by some of the guys upstairs on that. I mean Larry Monroe (Author’s Note: Advisor to the Baseball Department and former Sox pitcher), Ed Farmer, and Ron (Schueler.) They all wanted Scott Radinsky to be the closer. Now Scott was a good pitcher and he could be a closer but at that time he wasn’t ready.  The criticism was laughable; remember this was the bullpen that was the best in baseball in 1990.” (Author’s Note: The Sox won the Rolaids Relief Team Bullpen of the Year Award based on their record of 29-21 with 68 saves and an ERA of 3.16. The bullpen was primarily made up of right handers Bobby Thigpen, Barry Jones and Donn Pall and left handers Scott Radinsky, Kenny Patterson and Wayne Edwards.)

“As far as Bobby was concerned we played a game against the A’s in 1991. We had a lead and Bobby came in to pitch the 8^th inning for Alex Fernandez and a pitch got away from him and hit Terry Steinbach in the head. Tony (LaRussa) went crazy, I still remember him throwing a bat and my first thought was ‘what if that hit a fan? What kind of a lawsuit would he be looking at?’

“Anyway it was an ugly, ugly game, we lost the lead, wound up losing the game but there was a big fight after Steinbach got hit. Bobby was down on the bottom of the pile and he hurt his back. I think that’s why he lost his effectiveness not because of anything that I or the coaching staff did.” (Author’s Note: The game was played on June 1, 1991. The A’s came from behind to win 7-4.)

[FloydBannister1983]

17 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

With respect the Torborg situation wasn't what you described. This is from my extensive interview with him in 2010 and we still stay in touch talking every few months about the state of White Sox baseball:

ML: The Sox still won 87 games and looked ready to take the next step when word came that you resigned to take the Mets job. I remember reading that you wanted to be closer to your family in New Jersey, Jeff…but I’ve also heard rumors through the years that some in the front office didn’t care for the way you handled pitchers, specifically Bobby Thigpen who went downhill after 1991. When I’ve asked the guys you managed about that, like Donn Pall, he strongly defended the way you used the bullpen. Can you clear this up for me, why did you leave the White Sox? And were you forced out?

JT: “My mother was in her 80’s at the time but the reason that I left to be closer to my family was just for public relations, we didn’t want to hurt any feelings. I didn’t want to leave the White Sox. I had no desire to leave…why would I? This was a good young team ready to win; my wife and I loved Chicago and our son Dale was just starting out at Northwestern. (Author’s Note: Dale Torborg now works for the White Sox after a career in professional wrestling as a strength coach)

ML: Then obviously by your answer there’s more to the story than was told to fans at the time. What else was going on?

JT: “Later in the season we were in Minnesota for a two game series, it was a must win series for us because we were running out of time and I heard Peter Gammons report on ESPN that my job was in jeopardy. I was thinking, ‘where is this coming from?’ Then the last home stand of the year when we played the Twins again, Ron Schueler came into my office before it started and he closed the door. I was wondering what was going on. Ron said to me, “The Mets called me today and they want to talk with you about the managing job.” I told him, “Ron, I appreciate it but I have no interest.” Ron said, “well think about it and I’ll come back in a few days. We’ll talk again.” I’m sitting there wondering what is going on, because I said I had no interest.”

“So right before the last games, we had a makeup double header; Ron comes back and asks if I thought about the Mets offer. I told him again that I had no interest but then I said “Ron, I’ve got to ask you because this has come up, where I fit in with you and the organization?” He looked at me and said, “I think both of us would feel bad if you turned it down and then something happened.” 

“When he said that I had to think twice about what was happening. Ron and I never had a cross word between us that season but he wanted to hire his own guy, so when the Mets called I took the offer. It was the best thing for me financially but it was the worst move professionally I could have made. Ironically about a half hour after I verbally told the Mets I’d take the job the Yankees called and said they were firing “Stump” Merrill and offered me the position. I told them I had already given my word to the Mets and couldn’t go back on it but I didn’t want to leave the Sox in the first place.” (Author’s Note: Schueler and the organization first contacted former Sox coach Jimmy Leyland, then the manager of the Pirates about the position, but he turned them down instead suggesting his longtime base coach Gene Lamont, who got the job.)

ML: Was there any truth to the rumor that part of the reason the organization was upset with you was because of the way you handled your bullpen and how Bobby Thigpen just fell apart.

JT: “I had heard that I was being criticized by some of the guys upstairs on that. I mean Larry Monroe (Author’s Note: Advisor to the Baseball Department and former Sox pitcher), Ed Farmer, and Ron (Schueler.) They all wanted Scott Radinsky to be the closer. Now Scott was a good pitcher and he could be a closer but at that time he wasn’t ready.  The criticism was laughable; remember this was the bullpen that was the best in baseball in 1990.” (Author’s Note: The Sox won the Rolaids Relief Team Bullpen of the Year Award based on their record of 29-21 with 68 saves and an ERA of 3.16. The bullpen was primarily made up of right handers Bobby Thigpen, Barry Jones and Donn Pall and left handers Scott Radinsky, Kenny Patterson and Wayne Edwards.)

“As far as Bobby was concerned we played a game against the A’s in 1991. We had a lead and Bobby came in to pitch the 8^th inning for Alex Fernandez and a pitch got away from him and hit Terry Steinbach in the head. Tony (LaRussa) went crazy, I still remember him throwing a bat and my first thought was ‘what if that hit a fan? What kind of a lawsuit would he be looking at?’

“Anyway it was an ugly, ugly game, we lost the lead, wound up losing the game but there was a big fight after Steinbach got hit. Bobby was down on the bottom of the pile and he hurt his back. I think that’s why he lost his effectiveness not because of anything that I or the coaching staff did.” (Author’s Note: The game was played on June 1, 1991. The A’s came from behind to win 7-4.)

It’s laughable that they thought Radinsky could be a closer.  Good setup man for about two seasons but he was also pretty wild.

[SCCWS]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

That and he was a catcher, IMHO former catchers make the best managers.

Like Grifol?  He was an All America Catcher. 

[The Mighty Mite]

1 hour ago, SCCWS said:

Like Grifol?  He was an All America Catcher. 

Has to be an exception, that and he never played ML Baseball.

[South Side Hit Men]

8 hours ago, Milkman delivers said:

I was very loud about my desire to get rid of Ozzie years ago, but his opinion on some dead commie doesn’t matter to me. Everyone has stupid opinions.

There are obviously better options out there (though if they’d want the job is a whole other story), but Ozzie for the remainder of the season wouldn’t hurt. See what you got. Shake things up.

Shake things up to do what? Win 69 games instead of 65. Ozzie is going backwards in time.

They are not losing because of Pedro. They are losing because Hahn has no RF or 2B for yet another season. They only has 3 active starters including Lynn. They have no closer, no bench, no minor league depth, no more money, and Hahn has no clue as to how to fix the gigantic hole he dug since he was hired.

This team is a losing team since June 2021, and a losing team 2013-2019. It had 3 1/2 good months total  (late July through late September 2020 and April through the May 2021 Yermin incident) during Hahn's entire tenure.

Edited July 13, 2023 by South Side Hit Men

[Milkman delivers]

38 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Shake things up to do what? Win 69 games instead of 65. Ozzie is going backwards in time.

They are not losing because of Pedro. They are losing because Hahn has no RF or 2B for yet another season. They only has 3 active starters including Lynn. They have no closer, no bench, no minor league depth, no more money, and Hahn has no clue as to how to fix the gigantic hole he dug since he was hired.

This team is a losing team since June 2021, and a losing team 2013-2019. It had 3 1/2 good months total  (late July through late September 2020 and April through the May 2021 Yermin incident) during Hahn's entire tenure.

Make it interesting for fans? I don’t know. Clearly nobody cares about this team judging by attendance, lack of activity on this board, and the general malaise you pick up whenever the Sox are mentioned. Everyone knows they’re really bad and it’s not going to change for several years.

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, Milkman delivers said:

Make it interesting for fans? I don’t know. Clearly nobody cares about this team judging by attendance, lack of activity on this board, and the general malaise you pick up whenever the Sox are mentioned. Everyone knows they’re really bad and it’s not going to change for several years.

Tabloid drama doesn’t sell tickets in Chicago, we know that. People show up for winning baseball teams.

[South Side Hit Men]

3 minutes ago, Milkman delivers said:

Make it interesting for fans? I don’t know. Clearly nobody cares about this team judging by attendance, lack of activity on this board, and the general malaise you pick up whenever the Sox are mentioned. Everyone knows they’re really bad and it’s not going to change for several years.

I agree, but hearing Ozzie going off got really old back in the day. Allowing Hahn to make his  fifth/sixth managerial decision (1. Extension offer rejected by Ventura, 2. Ricky Hire, 3. Ricky pre 2020 Extension, 3 1/2. Fired Ricky for Jerry's Tony, 4 1/2. Hired Grifol, 5 1/2. Fire Grifol for Ozzie or XXXX) once again whitewashes his primary role in the failure.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I agree, but hearing Ozzie going off got really old back in the day. Allowing Hahn to make his  fifth/sixth managerial decision (1. Extension offer rejected by Ventura, 2. Ricky Hire, 3. Ricky pre 2020 Extension, 3 1/2. Fired Ricky for Jerry's Tony, 4 1/2. Hired Grifol, 5 1/2. Fire Grifol for Ozzie or XXXX) once again whitewashes his primary role in the failure.

Ooh oh don’t forget Robin Ventura’s contract extension after the super successful 2013 63 win season. That’s the sort of performance Rick wanted to define his time in the job.

[South Side Hit Men]

25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Ooh oh don’t forget Robin Ventura’s contract extension after the super successful 2013 63 win season. That’s the sort of performance Rick wanted to define his time in the job.

I wasn't following the team closely during Ventura's managerial seasons, and did not know that. Thanks, is par for the course.

I believe the three amigos (JR, KW and RH) had similar roles / decisions for all of these managerial hires beyond Tony.

Hahn played the primary role on most player trades / acquisitions / drafts, and for that reason, I've been out since 2015 (including his inability to handle the La Roche incident, having to go to Kenny to take care of the situation). Definitely wanted a baseball person to conduct the rebuild and "championship window phase", turned out somehow even worse than expected.

Edited July 14, 2023 by South Side Hit Men

[Milkman delivers]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Tabloid drama doesn’t sell tickets in Chicago, we know that. People show up for winning baseball teams.

We ain’t getting that either, my friend.

[Milkman delivers]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I agree, but hearing Ozzie going off got really old back in the day. Allowing Hahn to make his  fifth/sixth managerial decision (1. Extension offer rejected by Ventura, 2. Ricky Hire, 3. Ricky pre 2020 Extension, 3 1/2. Fired Ricky for Jerry's Tony, 4 1/2. Hired Grifol, 5 1/2. Fire Grifol for Ozzie or XXXX) once again whitewashes his primary role in the failure.

Fire Hahn, too. There’s blame to go around.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Milkman delivers said:

We ain’t getting that either, my friend.

TBH, I think we have our share of tabloid drama.

[tray]

Frequent posters should realize that after a while, those who read this forum kinda of get an idea what their opinions are.

[Bob Sacamano]

Old friend Ryan Tepera opted out of his minor league deal with the Rangers, where it looks like he threw well after being released by the Angels. Might as well bring him in for when we trade pen piece...or two...or three.

[The Kids Can Play]

On 7/13/2023 at 1:05 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

With respect the Torborg situation wasn't what you described. This is from my extensive interview with him in 2010 and we still stay in touch talking every few months about the state of White Sox baseball:

ML: The Sox still won 87 games and looked ready to take the next step when word came that you resigned to take the Mets job. I remember reading that you wanted to be closer to your family in New Jersey, Jeff…but I’ve also heard rumors through the years that some in the front office didn’t care for the way you handled pitchers, specifically Bobby Thigpen who went downhill after 1991. When I’ve asked the guys you managed about that, like Donn Pall, he strongly defended the way you used the bullpen. Can you clear this up for me, why did you leave the White Sox? And were you forced out?

JT: “My mother was in her 80’s at the time but the reason that I left to be closer to my family was just for public relations, we didn’t want to hurt any feelings. I didn’t want to leave the White Sox. I had no desire to leave…why would I? This was a good young team ready to win; my wife and I loved Chicago and our son Dale was just starting out at Northwestern. (Author’s Note: Dale Torborg now works for the White Sox after a career in professional wrestling as a strength coach)

ML: Then obviously by your answer there’s more to the story than was told to fans at the time. What else was going on?

JT: “Later in the season we were in Minnesota for a two game series, it was a must win series for us because we were running out of time and I heard Peter Gammons report on ESPN that my job was in jeopardy. I was thinking, ‘where is this coming from?’ Then the last home stand of the year when we played the Twins again, Ron Schueler came into my office before it started and he closed the door. I was wondering what was going on. Ron said to me, “The Mets called me today and they want to talk with you about the managing job.” I told him, “Ron, I appreciate it but I have no interest.” Ron said, “well think about it and I’ll come back in a few days. We’ll talk again.” I’m sitting there wondering what is going on, because I said I had no interest.”

“So right before the last games, we had a makeup double header; Ron comes back and asks if I thought about the Mets offer. I told him again that I had no interest but then I said “Ron, I’ve got to ask you because this has come up, where I fit in with you and the organization?” He looked at me and said, “I think both of us would feel bad if you turned it down and then something happened.” 

“When he said that I had to think twice about what was happening. Ron and I never had a cross word between us that season but he wanted to hire his own guy, so when the Mets called I took the offer. It was the best thing for me financially but it was the worst move professionally I could have made. Ironically about a half hour after I verbally told the Mets I’d take the job the Yankees called and said they were firing “Stump” Merrill and offered me the position. I told them I had already given my word to the Mets and couldn’t go back on it but I didn’t want to leave the Sox in the first place.” (Author’s Note: Schueler and the organization first contacted former Sox coach Jimmy Leyland, then the manager of the Pirates about the position, but he turned them down instead suggesting his longtime base coach Gene Lamont, who got the job.)

ML: Was there any truth to the rumor that part of the reason the organization was upset with you was because of the way you handled your bullpen and how Bobby Thigpen just fell apart.

JT: “I had heard that I was being criticized by some of the guys upstairs on that. I mean Larry Monroe (Author’s Note: Advisor to the Baseball Department and former Sox pitcher), Ed Farmer, and Ron (Schueler.) They all wanted Scott Radinsky to be the closer. Now Scott was a good pitcher and he could be a closer but at that time he wasn’t ready.  The criticism was laughable; remember this was the bullpen that was the best in baseball in 1990.” (Author’s Note: The Sox won the Rolaids Relief Team Bullpen of the Year Award based on their record of 29-21 with 68 saves and an ERA of 3.16. The bullpen was primarily made up of right handers Bobby Thigpen, Barry Jones and Donn Pall and left handers Scott Radinsky, Kenny Patterson and Wayne Edwards.)

“As far as Bobby was concerned we played a game against the A’s in 1991. We had a lead and Bobby came in to pitch the 8^th inning for Alex Fernandez and a pitch got away from him and hit Terry Steinbach in the head. Tony (LaRussa) went crazy, I still remember him throwing a bat and my first thought was ‘what if that hit a fan? What kind of a lawsuit would he be looking at?’

“Anyway it was an ugly, ugly game, we lost the lead, wound up losing the game but there was a big fight after Steinbach got hit. Bobby was down on the bottom of the pile and he hurt his back. I think that’s why he lost his effectiveness not because of anything that I or the coaching staff did.” (Author’s Note: The game was played on June 1, 1991. The A’s came from behind to win 7-4.)

I didn't know that much detail other than what we heard from the general media at the time. To be fair, your info would have never hit the main stream fans. I do appreciate your side of it. Just another example of what a Fcuked up POS Reinsdorf really is.

It's really sad and pathetic of this crap organization, because it sounds like he really wanted to remain the Sox manager.