How do the Sox move forward now that tanking isn't an option?

[caulfield12]

So Harold has Hahn fired at some point this year and JR not being willing to rebuild again?

Or just the first part ?

[Tnetennba]

3 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said:

It's because they either can't pick top 6 or top 10(not sure) in consecutive seasons. 

And even if they could, we are just as likely to get another Nick Madrigal or Andrew Vaughn over an Adley Rutchsman or Gunnar Henderson.

[The Kids Can Play]

49 minutes ago, bmags said:

This. It was a fun idea and all that the CBA introduced, but tanking is not just trying to get high picks in the draft as much as trading short term assets for longterm assets. The draft is one avenue, it's not the only one. 

That is exactly right. Drafting is only one avenue, which of course Hahn failed at badly. However worse than that, he failed in getting the right scouts to find the best prospects to even draft in the first place. He also failed miserably in developing the proper coaching philosophy in the minors, in order to make sure the prospects were developed into major league productive players. Finally, Hahn bombed horribly over the years with free agent signings and major trades. 

When you Fu*k  up all the above mentioned areas, that is how you get a trainwreck baseball organization that is a complete and utter embarrassment. This POS dysfunctional club gets a F grade in every aspect of the franchise.

[wegner]

1 minute ago, The Kids Can Play said:

That is exactly right. Drafting is only one avenue, which of course Hahn failed at badly. However worse than that, he failed in getting the right scouts to find the best prospects to even draft in the first place. He also failed miserably in developing the proper coaching philosophy in the minors, in order to make sure the prospects were developed into major league productive players. Finally, Hahn bombed horribly over the years with free agent signings and major trades. 

When you Fu*k  up all the above mentioned areas, that is how you get a trainwreck baseball organization that is a complete and utter embarrassment. This POS dysfunctional club gets a F grade in every aspect of the franchise.

You know what I find funny is that Remillard is a pretty fundamentally sound baseball player, except when he is playing in the OF but that is not his position or his fault when he is put out there. He also has a tendency to give a professional at bat. Yet he was in the Sox minors for 7 years. How did he avoid looking like a typical White Sox player?

[Timmy U]

Is relegation to AAA an option?

[baseball_gal_aly]

Idk how palatable it will be to Jerry to sign FA with the explicit goal of buying prospects with them. 

There are already rumors that Jerry's takeaway is that rebuilds don't work rather than the FO being putrid at their jobs

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by baseballgalaly

[DFAthewave69420]

2 hours ago, baseballgalaly said:

Obviously cleaning house in the FO should be the first priority, but how should they move forward from here? I'm at a loss. 

First step is for Jerry Reinsdorf to SELL THE FRANCHISE.

[The Kids Can Play]

4 minutes ago, wegner said:

You know what I find funny is that Remillard is a pretty fundamentally sound baseball player, except when he is playing in the OF but that is not his position or his fault when he is put out there. He also has a tendency to give a professional at bat. Yet he was in the Sox minors for 7 years. How did he avoid looking like a typical White Sox player?

I love Remillard and hope he can be the permanent 2B going forward and into next season. My only answer to why he didn't come out like the typical failed Sox prospect. is the fact being 29 and being passed up for so long, he probably made a serious decision on his own to make his own critical adjustments, knowing he wasn't going to get that proper coaching advice in the Sox farm system. 

[Tnetennba]

12 minutes ago, wegner said:

You know what I find funny is that Remillard is a pretty fundamentally sound baseball player, except when he is playing in the OF but that is not his position or his fault when he is put out there. He also has a tendency to give a professional at bat. Yet he was in the Sox minors for 7 years. How did he avoid looking like a typical White Sox player?

He looked solid, which the Sox are unable to recognize, thus being stuck in the minors until they are completely desperate.

[Balta1701]

If the White Sox want to do anything other than flail along hoping for the best, they will have to do things they don't want to do. Basically, the draft rules limit the talent the White Sox can get at the very top of the first round, but that is not the only place talent can be found. They have to get good returns from trades, from the international market, and from their other draft picks.

1. They have to trade Dylan Cease now. His value isn't likely to go up a lot if they hold him until the offseason, and it's likely to go down quite a bit by the trade deadline next year since he will only be controlled for 2 years. 
2. They can listen on Robert, and I'm open to arguments that they should take less than he's worth just to make sure they get something strong for him as injury insurance.

3. They must improve their return in the international market. As noted above, the White Sox are still getting disappointingly little from their international signings. They can't be as bad as they've been - the only return they have gotten in the international market in the space of a decade has been the big money guys, Abreu and Robert. Óscar Colás and Lenin Sosa are the first players the White Sox have signed on the international market to contribute to the White Sox since Yolmer Sanchez, and neither has been any good. Even a few players in their roster from this group would help, if they continue to be this bad at the international market they will never build a consistent winner.

4. They must improve the return they get outside of the first round of the draft. The Braves' rotation as we noted a couple times is being keyed by their 4th and 5th round draft picks from 2020. The only guys on the White Sox right now from the lower rounds are Seby Zavala (12th round), Aaron Bummer (19th round), Remillard (10th), and Gavin Sheets (2nd round). That's hundreds of players drafted outside of the first round and it has added up to -1.1 WAR, only 1 positive player on the entire roster outside of round 1.

5. They must start maximizing value rather than minimizing it. Over the next few years, they will have money to spend and spots to fill, but they won't be competitive for big name guys. The game they will be playing is bargain hunting - trying to find valuable guys and then turning them into something useful through trades. If they sign 3 or 4 pitchers per year, spending like $30 or $40 million on them, some of them will be bad, some of them will be good. They have to turn the good ones into something!

This is the opposite of how the White Sox have previously behaved. In 2019, they signed Ivan Nova, he wasn't very good, but he did throw innings for them - he turned into nothing. They signed James McCann, he was excellent for 2 years, they turned him into - nothing. They signed Herrera, he was awful. That's how it usually goes! You can't let these guys be walking away for nothing and you can't trade away the guys you do control. 2022 is another great example, as they decided to stand pat at the deadline when they shouldn't have. They let Abreu walk for nothing, they let Cueto walk for nothing, they held Lopez and he imploded, they held Graveman after an excellent first half and he has been far worse since. This is a long term trend - Rodon gave them nothing, they minimized Giolito's value by holding him too long.

Play the game the right way and this is an opportunity, act like they are right now and it will continue to be a crisis. Sign guys and turn the good ones into something long term, don't waste the innings you have. 

[bmags]

19 minutes ago, wegner said:

You know what I find funny is that Remillard is a pretty fundamentally sound baseball player, except when he is playing in the OF but that is not his position or his fault when he is put out there. He also has a tendency to give a professional at bat. Yet he was in the Sox minors for 7 years. How did he avoid looking like a typical White Sox player?

Do you remember last year when they called up Sosa from AA and sat on the bench and had 7 pretty nothing at bats? They had Remillard in AAA, who can play multiple positions. Would have been much more trusted from Tony too and they needed a body. Just horrendous scouting of their own players consistently. He's not a future starter, but he is a guy that can plug in and play competently - which sosa was not at that point.

 

edit: and the people who follow the minors (like myself) pointed this out, that if they were going to call up someone and barely play them Remillard was a good choice.

[2Deep]

This is a good question. Everything has to start from top down. If Harold is right then Hahn is gone and that is a start......

What is sad, I loved the moves that Hahn made when he was trying to rebuild. But he fucked up when didn't add the right pieces OR didn't do anything to supplement the rebuilding moves he made.

Going forward......

I'm trading Lynn, any bullpen piece except Santos.

I'm resigning Giolitto to a extension. With my starters being CEASE, GIO, KOPECH, OPEN, OPEN.

I go sign or trade for 2 starters. After the trade frenzy I see what I have left in the bullpen and can make moves in off season to supplement. 

I listen on TA but if you don't get the value then you keep him. 

I sign or trade for a LEGIT RF. 

I sign or trade for a LEGIT catcher.

If I can make find the C and RF then I leave remillard at 2nd.

Line up.......

Bennitendi

TA

ROBERT

ELOY

MONCADA/BURGER

RF (OPEN)

VAUGHN (Don't give up on this kid)

CATCHER (OPEN)

REMILLARD 

This only works if you find 2 starters of quality and and find  a RF and Catcher that supplement this lineup by being guys who can work counts and Slug.

Just my thoughts 

 

[wegner]

3 minutes ago, 2Deep said:

This is a good question. Everything has to start from top down. If Harold is right then Hahn is gone and that is a start......

What is sad, I loved the moves that Hahn made when he was trying to rebuild. But he fucked up when didn't add the right pieces OR didn't do anything to supplement the rebuilding moves he made.

Going forward......

I'm trading Lynn, any bullpen piece except Santos.

I'm resigning Giolitto to a extension. With my starters being CEASE, GIO, KOPECH, OPEN, OPEN.

I go sign or trade for 2 starters. After the trade frenzy I see what I have left in the bullpen and can make moves in off season to supplement. 

I listen on TA but if you don't get the value then you keep him. 

I sign or trade for a LEGIT RF. 

I sign or trade for a LEGIT catcher.

If I can make find the C and RF then I leave remillard at 2nd.

Line up.......

Bennitendi

TA

ROBERT

ELOY

MONCADA/BURGER

RF (OPEN)

VAUGHN (Don't give up on this kid)

CATCHER (OPEN)

REMILLARD 

This only works if you find 2 starters of quality and and find  a RF and Catcher that supplement this lineup by being guys who can work counts and Slug.

Just my thoughts 

 

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Wheeler would have signed with the Sox? If he is here in the shortened season, they might have had a shot in those playoffs. And in the following years, who knows. 

[Quin]

20 minutes ago, bmags said:

Do you remember last year when they called up Sosa from AA and sat on the bench and had 7 pretty nothing at bats? They had Remillard in AAA, who can play multiple positions. Would have been much more trusted from Tony too and they needed a body. Just horrendous scouting of their own players consistently. He's not a future starter, but he is a guy that can plug in and play competently - which sosa was not at that point.

 

edit: and the people who follow the minors (like myself) pointed this out, that if they were going to call up someone and barely play them Remillard was a good choice.

you are now the Sox GM

[T R U]

7 minutes ago, wegner said:

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Wheeler would have signed with the Sox? If he is here in the shortened season, they might have had a shot in those playoffs. And in the following years, who knows. 

Would have loved to have added Harper and Wheeler to this team.

[T R U]

14 minutes ago, 2Deep said:

This is a good question. Everything has to start from top down. If Harold is right then Hahn is gone and that is a start......

What is sad, I loved the moves that Hahn made when he was trying to rebuild. But he fucked up when didn't add the right pieces OR didn't do anything to supplement the rebuilding moves he made.

Going forward......

I'm trading Lynn, any bullpen piece except Santos.

I'm resigning Giolitto to a extension. With my starters being CEASE, GIO, KOPECH, OPEN, OPEN.

I go sign or trade for 2 starters. After the trade frenzy I see what I have left in the bullpen and can make moves in off season to supplement. 

I listen on TA but if you don't get the value then you keep him. 

I sign or trade for a LEGIT RF. 

I sign or trade for a LEGIT catcher.

If I can make find the C and RF then I leave remillard at 2nd.

Line up.......

Bennitendi

TA

ROBERT

ELOY

MONCADA/BURGER

RF (OPEN)

VAUGHN (Don't give up on this kid)

CATCHER (OPEN)

REMILLARD 

This only works if you find 2 starters of quality and and find  a RF and Catcher that supplement this lineup by being guys who can work counts and Slug.

Just my thoughts 

 

I tend to believe that if signing Giolito to an extension was a realistic option, it would have been done already.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Quin said:

you are now the Sox GM

I think in general the sentiment is correct that fans aren't smarter than GMs but white sox or at least soxtalk hivemind is the exception to the rule. We are absolutely better at this than Rick Hahn. I know I"d embarrass myself at a lot of setting up a complex organization, but on the other hand with a lot less data than Rick hahn this board makes a lot better decisions. Either Rick can't read or the data his team creates is bad, and he's never decided to correct it.

[baseball_gal_aly]

30 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If the White Sox want to do anything other than flail along hoping for the best, they will have to do things they don't want to do. Basically, the draft rules limit the talent the White Sox can get at the very top of the first round, but that is not the only place talent can be found. They have to get good returns from trades, from the international market, and from their other draft picks.

1. They have to trade Dylan Cease now. His value isn't likely to go up a lot if they hold him until the offseason, and it's likely to go down quite a bit by the trade deadline next year since he will only be controlled for 2 years. 
2. They can listen on Robert, and I'm open to arguments that they should take less than he's worth just to make sure they get something strong for him as injury insurance.

3. They must improve their return in the international market. As noted above, the White Sox are still getting disappointingly little from their international signings. They can't be as bad as they've been - the only return they have gotten in the international market in the space of a decade has been the big money guys, Abreu and Robert. Óscar Colás and Lenin Sosa are the first players the White Sox have signed on the international market to contribute to the White Sox since Yolmer Sanchez, and neither has been any good. Even a few players in their roster from this group would help, if they continue to be this bad at the international market they will never build a consistent winner.

4. They must improve the return they get outside of the first round of the draft. The Braves' rotation as we noted a couple times is being keyed by their 4th and 5th round draft picks from 2020. The only guys on the White Sox right now from the lower rounds are Seby Zavala (12th round), Aaron Bummer (19th round), Remillard (10th), and Gavin Sheets (2nd round). That's hundreds of players drafted outside of the first round and it has added up to -1.1 WAR, only 1 positive player on the entire roster outside of round 1.

5. They must start maximizing value rather than minimizing it. Over the next few years, they will have money to spend and spots to fill, but they won't be competitive for big name guys. The game they will be playing is bargain hunting - trying to find valuable guys and then turning them into something useful through trades. If they sign 3 or 4 pitchers per year, spending like $30 or $40 million on them, some of them will be bad, some of them will be good. They have to turn the good ones into something!

This is the opposite of how the White Sox have previously behaved. In 2019, they signed Ivan Nova, he wasn't very good, but he did throw innings for them - he turned into nothing. They signed James McCann, he was excellent for 2 years, they turned him into - nothing. They signed Herrera, he was awful. That's how it usually goes! You can't let these guys be walking away for nothing and you can't trade away the guys you do control. 2022 is another great example, as they decided to stand pat at the deadline when they shouldn't have. They let Abreu walk for nothing, they let Cueto walk for nothing, they held Lopez and he imploded, they held Graveman after an excellent first half and he has been far worse since. This is a long term trend - Rodon gave them nothing, they minimized Giolito's value by holding him too long.

Play the game the right way and this is an opportunity, act like they are right now and it will continue to be a crisis. Sign guys and turn the good ones into something long term, don't waste the innings you have. 

1. Based on what has been reported, they're probably not trading Cease or Robert until they're 1 year rentals at best. Maybe they might consider it as a 1.5 year rental. 

2. I'm expecting an approach similar to 2014-16 going forward until ownership changes. 

3. The reason I'm saying rebuild isn't an option is because of Jerry moreso than overall strategy. Yes the draft changes suck going forward but they could try to buy prospects by picking up short term deals in FA and if they're having a good year, sell high.

I think they're gonna sell by 8/1/23 because it's clearly over, but I really doubt they're going to listen on anyone that isn't a pure rental. 

Where it gets interesting is when Eloy's team options come. 

 

I was excited about the trades they made in 2016-17 but very skeptical about Madrigal and Vaughn. I kept an open mind though. The majority of what could go wrong, did. And here we are. 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by baseballgalaly

[SonofaRoache]

2 hours ago, baseballgalaly said:

Obviously cleaning house in the FO should be the first priority, but how should they move forward from here? I'm at a loss. 

We tanked hard for two years and ended up with a below average first baseman to show for it. This FO is useless no matter what lense you look through. 

[Quin]

15 minutes ago, bmags said:

I think in general the sentiment is correct that fans aren't smarter than GMs but white sox or at least soxtalk hivemind is the exception to the rule. We are absolutely better at this than Rick Hahn. I know I"d embarrass myself at a lot of setting up a complex organization, but on the other hand with a lot less data than Rick hahn this board makes a lot better decisions. Either Rick can't read or the data his team creates is bad, and he's never decided to correct it.

I really do truly want to know who's call it was to not extend Rodon a qualifying offer, not give Machado an outright $300M contract, and not pursue Harper to the fullest.

Also the classic "call up a top prospect despite the fact that the manager will bench them" move.

[T R U]

2 minutes ago, Quin said:

I really do truly want to know who's call it was to not extend Rodon a qualifying offer, not give Machado an outright $300M contract, and not pursue Harper to the fullest.

Also the classic "call up a top prospect despite the fact that the manager will bench them" move.

Very obviously that was JR for the first 3 items.

The calling up a prospect to not use them though, I don't get it. You would assume that's the managers call.

[The Kids Can Play]

8 minutes ago, 2Deep said:

This is a good question. Everything has to start from top down. If Harold is right then Hahn is gone and that is a start......

What is sad, I loved the moves that Hahn made when he was trying to rebuild. But he fucked up when didn't add the right pieces OR didn't do anything to supplement the rebuilding moves he made.

Going forward......

I'm trading Lynn, any bullpen piece except Santos.

I'm resigning Giolitto to a extension. With my starters being CEASE, GIO, KOPECH, OPEN, OPEN.

I go sign or trade for 2 starters. After the trade frenzy I see what I have left in the bullpen and can make moves in off season to supplement. 

I listen on TA but if you don't get the value then you keep him. 

I sign or trade for a LEGIT RF. 

I sign or trade for a LEGIT catcher.

If I can make find the C and RF then I leave remillard at 2nd.

Line up.......

Bennitendi

TA

ROBERT

ELOY

MONCADA/BURGER

RF (OPEN)

VAUGHN (Don't give up on this kid)

CATCHER (OPEN)

REMILLARD 

This only works if you find 2 starters of quality and and find  a RF and Catcher that supplement this lineup by being guys who can work counts and Slug.

Just my thoughts 

 

I am starting to change my mind on Giolito being traded and I like your idea of signing him to an extension.

Here is my reasoning:

1. Although Gio should bring a good return, it bothers me that Hahn is doing the negotiating and trading. He has failed miserably on his past trades. What makes anyone convinced he won't get fleeced again. 

2. Let's face it, Gio had a good year thus far overall. He leads the Sox in quality starts with 11 and has a good 3.79 ERA. He has kept the Sox in most games to win and unfortunately his shitty bullpen and/or lack of offense has been the problem and not Gio.

3. When you get rid of a quality starter like Gio, then you have to replace him. As we know, pitching is the most important position and the hardest in trying to find a good one. Why do we want to get rid of a solid pitcher when there isn't a guarantee Hahn will be successful at it. Gio is only 29 years old and has shown to be very healthy and durable. The Sox AAA and AA pitching staffs are horrific and you won't be getting anyone in 2024 from the minors. 

4. As you pointed out, a SP rotation of 1.Cease, 2. Gio, 3. Kopech, 4. Open and 5. Open isn't that bad. If the Sox can dump enough other losers like Grandal, Moncada, Clevinger Lynn, Anderson etc. to free up money, there are some good SP free agents the Sox could aggressively go after in the off-season. I don't care what we get back on the trades, just get rid of the losers I mentioned for some A prospects just to free up the payroll and afford two FA starting pitchers 

 

[T R U]

Guys, again, there is 0.0 chance that Giolito is resigned.

This is a really bad team, with a really bad farm system. You think they are going to drop $100 million plus on a 29 year old SP right now?

He will be traded within the week, and we will be much better for it long term.

[Lip Man 1]

Any realistic shot Giolito had of returning by whatever means ended when the Sox played hardball with him over 50,000 dollars this past off season.

Both he and his agent let their feelings be known after it happened.

He gone!

[nitetrain8601]

I'm in the belief that if you're going to pay for players, you pay the position players who play everyday, not pitchers unless they're HoF-potential or you're a true contender. Cease still has that. Giolito, as much as I like him, does not have that ability. So dealing him makes all of the sense.

 

The Sox problems, as everyone has stated, are so deeply rooted, it's ridiculous. Their drafting has been terrible under Hahn. Their analysis of players in-house, has sucked. They made a few decent trades for flawed prospects. The ones that don't appear to be flawed have an in-ept coaching staff that couldn't teach 1st grade math. Their analytics, suck. The only thing that has kept them from not being moved to North Dakota and changing their name to the Flying Purple People Eaters is the fact that they've been able to attract some Cuban players who are older. They also either refuse or are incapable of developing a system for amateur ball players so they'll never end up getting someone like Elly De La Cruz. 

They don't know how to develop anyone. It is to the point in which if I were a GM in baseball, I would fade everything the White Sox FO does, their philosophy in terms of spending, analytics, signings, trading, evaluation of their own players, etc. They've been a bucket of suck for far too long.