How do the Sox move forward now that tanking isn't an option?

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

Do you remember last year when they called up Sosa from AA and sat on the bench and had 7 pretty nothing at bats? They had Remillard in AAA, who can play multiple positions. Would have been much more trusted from Tony too and they needed a body. Just horrendous scouting of their own players consistently. He's not a future starter, but he is a guy that can plug in and play competently - which sosa was not at that point.

 

edit: and the people who follow the minors (like myself) pointed this out, that if they were going to call up someone and barely play them Remillard was a good choice.

He’s also the only really strong bunter in the organization…well, I guess Billy Hamilton would be the other if he’s still hanging around.

[The Kids Can Play]

32 minutes ago, T R U said:

Guys, again, there is 0.0 chance that Giolito is resigned.

This is a really bad team, with a really bad farm system. You think they are going to drop $100 million plus on a 29 year old SP right now?

He will be traded within the week, and we will be much better for it long term.

I get Giolito is going to be traded. That doesn't mean it's the right decision. Plus you and nobody else here can assure me that the Sox will be better off for trading Gio. Hahn sucks at negotiating and making trades. Why of all of sudden well he be brilliant and start playing chess when he is only a checkers player.

Again you need starters. You make it sound like they just fall right off trees. If Hahn was so good at finding starters, then why do we have the worst pitching in the minors of probably all 30 ML teams?

Let's see who we get back on the Giolito trade. It will be fun tracking the prospects and see of any of them amount to anything. My bet is doesn't make us any better in the long run. In the meantime Giolito will go to a good team like the Rays for example and they will make him an all-star. 

[T R U]

Just now, The Kids Can Play said:

I get Giolito is going to be traded. That doesn't mean it's the right decision. Plus you and nobody else here can assure me that the Sox will be better off for trading Gio. Hahn sucks at negotiating and making trades. Why of all of sudden well he be brilliant and start playing chess when he is only a checkers player.

Again you need starters. You make it sound like they just fall right off trees. If Hahn was so good at finding starters, then why do we have the worst pitching in the minors of probably all 30 ML teams?

Let's see who we get back on the Giolito trade. It will be fun tracking the prospects and see of any of them amount to anything. My bet is doesn't make us any better in the long run. In the meantime Giolito will go to a good team like the Rays for example and they will make him an all-star. 

Well, for starters, he was already an All Star for us.

You can't pretend to know how a trade will work out. Doesn't matter how bad you think Rick Hahn is at his job. Were not just having a bad year, the future looks grim as f***. Signing Giolito to a franchise record contract is under no circumstance a good move for the White Sox now and moving forward.

Resigning Giolito does not solve the mountain of problems with this organization moving forward. Trading him for a max return and possibly getting multiple cheap controlled pieces to help this franchise in the future is the clear best path.

[EloyJenkins]

Can Jerry just die? 

[The Kids Can Play]

5 minutes ago, T R U said:

Well, for starters, he was already an All Star for us.

You can't pretend to know how a trade will work out. Doesn't matter how bad you think Rick Hahn is at his job. Were not just having a bad year, the future looks grim as f***. Signing Giolito to a franchise record contract is under no circumstance a good move for the White Sox now and moving forward.

Resigning Giolito does not solve the mountain of problems with this organization moving forward. Trading him for a max return and possibly getting multiple cheap controlled pieces to help this franchise in the future is the clear best path.

We will have to agree to disagree. I know this org is fu*ked to the max! We have a horrible ML roster and even more horrible farm system. Where we disagree is I am predicting the trades Hahn is about to make will be bad and its not a guess...its simply fact based on Hahn's track record. I don't agree with you that Gio will bring in a a max return. Time will tell as we track Hahn's trade of Gio.

No matter how many players Hahn trades at the deadline and no matter what free agents he signs, he will at some point need to find a starting pitcher to replace Gio. There are none in the minors other than maybe low and high A ball, which is years away.

Plus Gio said publicly a few weeks ago he wanted to remain on this team. You are assuming he will break the bank, when maybe he won't. Yet if that is what it takes, then so be it, it's the most important position on the team. 

 

[T R U]

7 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

We will have to agree to disagree. I know this org is fu*ked to the max! We have a horrible ML roster and even more horrible farm system. Where we disagree is I am predicting the trades Hahn is about to make will be bad and its not a guess...its simply fact based on Hahn's track record. I don't agree with you that Gio will bring in a a max return. Time will tell as we track Hahn's trade of Gio.

No matter how many players Hahn trades at the deadline and no matter what free agents he signs, he will at some point need to find a starting pitcher to replace Gio. There are none in the minors other than maybe low and high A ball, which is years away.

Plus Gio said publicly a few weeks ago he wanted to remain on this team. You are assuming he will break the bank, when maybe he won't. Yet if that is what it takes, then so be it, it's the most important position on the team. 

 

Giolito is one of the best SP available at a deadline in a big sellers market, he is going to return something or things of value on paper. Doesn't matter who the GM is, the names coming back will be good ones.

If they work out or not, that's another story.

The other option is to let him walk with a rejected QO and get a pick in the 3rd round range. Bleck, I would rather roll the dice on some players we already have seen professionally.

[ChiSox59]

33 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I get Giolito is going to be traded. That doesn't mean it's the right decision. Plus you and nobody else here can assure me that the Sox will be better off for trading Gio. Hahn sucks at negotiating and making trades. Why of all of sudden well he be brilliant and start playing chess when he is only a checkers player.

Again you need starters. You make it sound like they just fall right off trees. If Hahn was so good at finding starters, then why do we have the worst pitching in the minors of probably all 30 ML teams?

Let's see who we get back on the Giolito trade. It will be fun tracking the prospects and see of any of them amount to anything. My bet is doesn't make us any better in the long run. In the meantime Giolito will go to a good team like the Rays for example and they will make him an all-star. 

The Sox have the same chance to have Giolito on the 2024 roster whether they trade him in the next week or make the awful decision to retain him for the next 2 months.  It makes no difference at all.  Giolito - like 99% of the all FAs - will sign with whoever offers the most money.  It is super duper highly unlikely that is the White Sox.  All things being equal, of course we'd rather have Giolito on the 2024 than not considering the state of the Sox SP staff.  But you absolutely take what you can get for him now, which honestly, is probably someone that will be on that 2024 SP staff.  

[The Kids Can Play]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

The Sox have the same chance to have Giolito on the 2024 roster whether they trade him in the next week or make the awful decision to retain him for the next 2 months.  It makes no difference at all.  Giolito - like 99% of the all FAs - will sign with whoever offers the most money.  It is super duper highly unlikely that is the White Sox.  All things being equal, of course we'd rather have Giolito on the 2024 than not considering the state of the Sox SP staff.  But you absolutely take what you can get for him now, which honestly, is probably someone that will be on that 2024 SP staff.  

Trust me I get if we trade Gio as a rental there is no chance in hell we get him in the off-season as FA. My only point is we have Gio now and I know we need prospects, but I am not confident or convinced Hahn will pull this off and not be once again fleeced. 

[LittleHurtCG]

2 hours ago, T R U said:

Would have loved to have added Harper and Wheeler to this team.

The Sox were never serious about signing either of these guys just like Machado. They wanted the appearance of being in on these guys, but they never really were. It was all a dog and pony show from the jump. JR was never going to authorize a 100 million dollar contract for a pitcher and he never will. 

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

The Sox were never serious about signing either of these guys just like Machado. They wanted the appearance of being in on these guys, but they never really were. It was all a dog and pony show from the jump. JR was never going to authorize a 100 million dollar contract for a pitcher and he never will. 

It’s been widely reported that the Sox were the high bidder on Wheeler and his wife preferred the east coast. 

 

10 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Trust me I get if we trade Gio as a rental there is no chance in hell we get him in the off-season as FA. My only point is we have Gio now and I know we need prospects, but I am not confident or convinced Hahn will pull this off and not be once again fleeced. 

Doing nothing because you’re scared to lose a trade is 1000000x worse. But alright 

[The Kids Can Play]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

It’s been widely reported that the Sox were the high bidder on Wheeler and his wife preferred the east coast. 

 

Doing nothing because you’re scared to lose a trade is 1000000x worse. But alright 

It's not losing the trade that concerns me, it's the fact we will have to find another Giolito and they are hard to find.

I know we need tons of prospects, but let's get them dumping all the other loser position players or relievers on this team. This one pitcher Gio isn't going to turn around this horrible organization with one of the worst combinations of farm systems and major league rosters.

[LittleHurtCG]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

It’s been widely reported that the Sox were the high bidder on Wheeler and his wife preferred the east coast. 

 

Doing nothing because you’re scared to lose a trade is 1000000x worse. But alright 

Did someone from Wheeler's camp come out and say that the SOx were the highest bidder or did those reports come from info provided by White Sox sources? 

[FloydBannister1983]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

I think in general the sentiment is correct that fans aren't smarter than GMs but white sox or at least soxtalk hivemind is the exception to the rule. We are absolutely better at this than Rick Hahn. I know I"d embarrass myself at a lot of setting up a complex organization, but on the other hand with a lot less data than Rick hahn this board makes a lot better decisions. Either Rick can't read or the data his team creates is bad, and he's never decided to correct it.

I don’t believe lots of GMs know better than fans who follow very closely.  They may know more about contracts and injuries.  This is certainly true for the Sox.  

[Tnetennba]

2 hours ago, EloyJenkins said:

Can Jerry just die? 

Mofo is gonna outlive us all…

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, EloyJenkins said:

Can Jerry just die? 

 

[tray]

MLB is a fundamentally flawed league without revenue sharing AND a salary cap. All teams need to adhere to the same rules. Instead we have fans wanting billionaires with the deepest pockets to buy the local franchise and then  spend like drunken sailors.

[caulfield12]

42 minutes ago, tray said:

MLB is a fundamentally flawed league without revenue sharing AND a salary cap. All teams need to adhere to the same rules. Instead we have fans wanting billionaires with the deepest pockets to buy the local franchise and then  spend like drunken sailors.

Need a salary floor as well...

[Lip Man 1]

43 minutes ago, tray said:

MLB is a fundamentally flawed league without revenue sharing AND a salary cap. All teams need to adhere to the same rules. Instead we have fans wanting billionaires with the deepest pockets to buy the local franchise and then  spend like drunken sailors.

All national TV/radio money is shared equally among all clubs along with revenue from merchandise sales. When MLB sold off BamTech a few years ago each club got a 50 million dollar check so there is some revenue sharing. 

As far as a salary cap, forget it. It will never happen as long as the MLBPA is the strongest union in the world. And I agree with their position.

If there are owners who refuse to compete for whatever reason or reasons let them sell to someone who will.

[Big Hurtin]

Like they have for most of their existence, being the MLB version of the Washington Generals.

[Balta1701]

24 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

All national TV/radio money is shared equally among all clubs along with revenue from merchandise sales. When MLB sold off BamTech a few years ago each club got a 50 million dollar check so there is some revenue sharing. 

As far as a salary cap, forget it. It will never happen as long as the MLBPA is the strongest union in the world. And I agree with their position.

If there are owners who refuse to compete for whatever reason or reasons let them sell to someone who will.

I don’t think you were here much for the lockout? But this is one where I think the players are actually mostly in the wrong. Over the last 20 years, the owners have cut the fraction of income going to players by like 1/3, from 60% to under 40% in 2021. The owners figured out how to collide without colluding; you just make it clear you’re not bidding on someone like the Harper and Machado pursuits. The players would have come out better for 15 years if the locked in a cap and a floor because the floor would have pushed up a lot of veteran salaries. Waiting for one Cohen to come along doesn’t make up for this.

Furthrrmore, a league where Oakland and Pittsburgh have to spend moderately is a stronger sport. It’s really bad when franchises wither over 20 years with only one or two competitive seasons, that kind of failure is murder on fanbases (cough).

The one legit worry I have to give though is that I don’t know that you can trust the owners to give honest revenue figures to independent auditors determining the tax or floor.  Whether it’s not counting parking or owning networks or hiding money in the drywall of some bathroom, there are owners I wouldn’t put anything past.

[baseball_gal_aly]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don’t think you were here much for the lockout? But this is one where I think the players are actually mostly in the wrong. Over the last 20 years, the owners have cut the fraction of income going to players by like 1/3, from 60% to under 40% in 2021. The owners figured out how to collide without colluding; you just make it clear you’re not bidding on someone like the Harper and Machado pursuits. The players would have come out better for 15 years if the locked in a cap and a floor because the floor would have pushed up a lot of veteran salaries. Waiting for one Cohen to come along doesn’t make up for this.

Furthrrmore, a league where Oakland and Pittsburgh have to spend moderately is a stronger sport. It’s really bad when franchises wither over 20 years with only one or two competitive seasons, that kind of failure is murder on fanbases (cough).

The one legit worry I have to give though is that I don’t know that you can trust the owners to give honest revenue figures to independent auditors determining the tax or floor.  Whether it’s not counting parking or owning networks or hiding money in the drywall of some bathroom, there are owners I wouldn’t put anything past.

I actually don't think the owners want a cap and floor either, because that means they have to open up the books. 

But yes, for everyone except the superstars a cap and floor system is better for them than the current system. 

[South Side Hit Men]

MLB and their owners and the sport would be stronger overall contracting to 28 or even 24 teams. Two to six less teams to split the pie with, stronger on field product, two to four less teams tanking.

Need a strong enforceable salary floor matching at minimum annual league shared revenues. Have 28-30 man active rosters to have adequate daily lineups and nix the 10th inning did runner rule.

Four total playoff teams (Four Divisions, Zero Wild Cards) to have legitimate “World” Series Champions.

Will also add future great memories like Dodgers vs. Giants, Yankees vs. Red Sox (1978), Astros vs. Dodgers (1980), White Sox vs. Twins (2008) and a half dozen others. Plus great photo finishes like 1968. It’s all gone now.

[elrockinMT]

I don’t think we need any of those burn down the house moves. We certainly can make some moves such as trading Lance Lynn because of age and salary, or Grandahl for the same reason. But, with Yaz being dealt you need good catching and I don’t see us there at this time. Trade Bummer for a good return as well as Graveman and Middleton. Use the money saved a resign Giolito and extend Cease, Kopech, Crochet and maybe Kelly. Clevinger is a toss up and so is Lopez. We have a good OF and a healthy infield will be a real plus. DH should be good also. I really believe a healthy and motivated team will win in 2024. Absolutely nothing positive will come out of blowing up the roster and it will only put us in the bottom for several years. But, if they want to bring Ozzie back I wouldn’t cry 

Edited July 25, 2023 by elrockinMT

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, elrockinMT said:

I don’t think we need any of those burn down the house moves. We certainly can make some moves such as trading Lance Lynn because of age and salary, or Grandahl for the same reason. But, with Yaz being dealt you need good catching and I don’t see us there at this time. Trade Bummer for a good return as well as Graveman and Middleton. Use the money saved a resign Giolito and extend Cease, Kopech, Crochet and maybe Kelly. Clevinger is a toss up and so is Lopez. We have a good OF and a healthy infield will be a real plus. DH should be good also. I really believe a healthy and motivated team will win in 2024. Absolutely nothing positive will come out of blowing up the roster and it will only put us in the bottom for several years. But, if they want to bring Ozzie back I wouldn’t cry 

Aaron Bummer and his 6.82 ERA?

[SoxAce]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Aaron Bummer and his 6.82 ERA?

Yea Bummer and his 2.35 FIP.