Giolito & Reynaldo to LAA. Update: Angels put on waivers

[T R U]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Truer words have never been spoken.  I’m confident the Orioles would give up an absolute haul of players to add Cease to their core right now.  I think people sometimes forgot that with potential trades like this involving a highly valuable, controllable asset is you need the right market conditions to get a really strong return.  Ignore the pure injury risk, there is no guarantee that this off-season or next year that teams will still have both the prospect currency and desire to make a trade like this happen.  Take advantage of an insane seller’s market right now and get multiple partially developed pieces that could help us by 2025.

They can't trade Cease, it would be an admission of failure. They are going to limp this thing through as long as possible until it finally just dies. At least that's what I am getting from all of this.

[LittleHurtCG]

5 minutes ago, kwill said:

I would trade Robert and Cease if the offer is good enough to warrant. I would not trade them for a dime less than their worth however. 

The truth is Robert's value will never be higher. He is controlled, healthy and producing. Unfortunately, You can't say that has been the case for most of his career. If you can get a collection of good minor league prospects than you should do it. I would say the package would have to start with 3 top 100 prospects with at least one of them in the top 100. That would be the start of the conversation. 

Sure, you can try to win with him but is Jerry going to go out and spend 80+ million/ Year to rebuild a starting staff like they will need too. I would say probably not. 

You look around at the teams that are good this year.  A large part is by having cost controlled good players and that starts in the minor league system. If we had a loaded system I would say lets keep our really good players. But we don't. Which means at best running out mediocre squads for the next 3 years. 

I would just rather rip the bandaid off. Let me suffer for another 2 years with the hope that something better is coming than live in mediocre. 

I dont think the thought of the rebuild was the issue but rather the execution. 

Hahn and company didn't put in the work to make the rebuild successfull. They were lazy and cut too many corners. Hahn thought he could just try to copy off the Astros and Cubs homework. 

Tanking under JR is never ever gonna work.

[ChiSox59]

7 minutes ago, wegner said:

Has he been up before? I seriously do not remember him.

Yeah, he got absolutely shelled and then optioned.  IIRC, they brought him in with bases juiced and then proceeded to walk 2 of the next 3 guys.  

[flavum]

24 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Maybe they want to play short again. It saves almost 4k per game.

Gotta pay for those Norfolk to Dallas flights next week to get the Knights up to the big club. 

[wegner]

5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yeah, he got absolutely shelled and then optioned.  IIRC, they brought him in with bases juiced and then proceeded to walk 2 of the next 3 guys.  

Oh, so he is here to replace Joe Kelly

[LittleHurtCG]

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Truer words have never been spoken.  I’m confident the Orioles would give up an absolute haul of players to add Cease to their core right now.  I think people sometimes forgot that with potential trades like this involving a highly valuable, controllable asset is you need the right market conditions to get a really strong return.  Ignore the pure injury risk, there is no guarantee that this off-season or next year that teams will still have both the prospect currency and desire to make a trade like this happen.  Take advantage of an insane seller’s market right now and get multiple partially developed pieces that could help us by 2025.

Sox would likley just end up with more stiffs like Moncada and Kopech if they traded away Cease. I've already seen that movie before and the ending sucked. Hard pass. 

3 minutes ago, T R U said:

They can't trade Cease, it would be an admission of failure. They are going to limp this thing through as long as possible until it finally just dies. At least that's what I am getting from all of this.

The rebuild has already failed. However, you will never hear Hahn use that word. He will talk about disappointment ,but never failure. 

[Rocky]

7 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Hahn and company didn't put in the work to make the rebuild successfull. They were lazy and cut too many corners. Hahn thought he could just try to copy off the Astros and Cubs homework. 

Tanking under JR is never ever gonna work.

According to Garfiens podcast.  Hahn tried multiple times to make some big acquisitions and was told no.  They made it obvious that JR did not want to spend the money to bring in teh guys Hahn wanted.  While Hahn needs to go, he is not the biggest issue.  

[GREEDY]

I wonder what the return could have been if the Sox picked up the $ due to Gio and Lopey?

Putting LAA into the lux tax was definitely costly for them.

[almagest]

No idea why any of you trust this organization to tank again. They definitively proved they can't do it. It sucks, but they're better off keeping their best, long-term controlled players and filling in the blanks with lightning in the bottle attempts and mid level free agents. Their drafting strategy seems to be improving, but they still need to revamp their player development. Luckily that can happen irrespective of how good or bad the MLB team is.

Edited July 27, 2023 by almagest

[Harry Chappas]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

I keep reading this and laughing wondering what anyone thinks this is?  It’s a rebuild!  They are selling off and this team is gonna suck!  Jerry’s patience doesn’t matter at all

Jerry being mad and upset is almost as big a bullshit line as Virginia McCaskey being furious the Bears just spent the last 30 years getting their brains beat in by the Packers.

IT's RA RA media bullshit.  The Chicago media is a bunch of pathetic spas that prey on the meathead fans and we buy into it.

Grifol's dumb press conference is the most recent example.

Chicago owners know they can screw over the fan base and we are too stubborn to ditch them.

 

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, GREEDY said:

I wonder what the return could have been if the Sox picked up the $ due to Gio and Lopey?

Putting LAA into the lux tax was definitely costly for them.

It cost LAA about $1M in tax.  Not that costly. The Angels farm is terrible - we literally just got 2 of their best 3 prospects.  Not a whole lot else to get by eating a couple million.

[almagest]

3 minutes ago, Rocky said:

According to Garfiens podcast.  Hahn tried multiple times to make some big acquisitions and was told no.  They made it obvious that JR did not want to spend the money to bring in teh guys Hahn wanted.  While Hahn needs to go, he is not the biggest issue.  

This is almost certainly true, and it does give Hahn some leeway. But not much. He didn't have to sign garbage with that money, and the minor leagues are AWFUL under him. Some league average replacement pieces would've gone a long way towards stabilizing the team.

[GREEDY]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

It cost LAA about $1M in tax.  Not that costly. The Angels farm is terrible - we literally just got 2 of their best 3 prospects.  Not a whole lot else to get by eating a couple million.

If they plan to spend big, like 500 million big... I'd think they'd wish they stayed out of the bracket this year.

 

And it probably cost them like 5 million total.  That brings back something of value.  For sure.

Edited July 27, 2023 by GREEDY

[Kyyle23]

9 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

I wonder what the return could have been if the Sox picked up the $ due to Gio and Lopey?

Putting LAA into the lux tax was definitely costly for them.

They weren’t owed much at all, prorated 10.4M and 3M.  Can’t imagine that’s gonna sweeten the deal that much 

[Rocky]

4 minutes ago, almagest said:

This is almost certainly true, and it does give Hahn some leeway. But not much. He didn't have to sign garbage with that money, and the minor leagues are AWFUL under him. Some league average replacement pieces would've gone a long way towards stabilizing the team.

I agree.  He has plenty of fault. 

Would have been nice to see his full plan, if only we didnt have JR as the owner.  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

15 minutes ago, Rocky said:

According to Garfiens podcast.  Hahn tried multiple times to make some big acquisitions and was told no.  They made it obvious that JR did not want to spend the money to bring in teh guys Hahn wanted.  While Hahn needs to go, he is not the biggest issue.  

There honest to god might not be a more delusional group of people than the "Hahn isn't that bad" crowd.

You don't need to sign mega free agents to compete. The Sox, under Hahn's watch, are bad at: drafting, Free agency, player development. Hahn was good and is now OK at: signing young guys to decent deals.

It turns out that you actually have to identify and develop those guys for that skill to work.

Rick didn't build a system from the ground up. He tried to build one from the top down, and just like everything he's done he was quickly exposed for the whole world to see.

 

[Boopa1219]

51 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Well my original point was that tanking and rebuilding will never work as long as JR is the owner and Hahn/KW are still here. Your post shows that repeating the process again isn't going to work as JR is still the owner last time I checked. The only way forward is to try to create 2005 again around a base of Cease and Robert. 

I think it can work. Tampa has made it to the World Series multiple times since 2005. There’s smart execs out there who could make it work, Hahn and KW aren’t those guys but I agree having Jerry as the owner makes it more difficult 

[Balta1701]

19 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

It cost LAA about $1M in tax.  Not that costly. The Angels farm is terrible - we literally just got 2 of their best 3 prospects.  Not a whole lot else to get by eating a couple million.

I don't know that the total tax number would matter much to them as compared to the multi-year penalties. As a big IF - IF they wanted to try to keep Shohei, they would have to go over the tax line to do it. Going over the tax line this year would take their penalty from 20% to 30% next year, and from 30% to 50% in 2025. That's like another what, $15 or $20 million in total cost compared to staying below the tax line this year? 

[caulfield12]

40 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Truer words have never been spoken.  I’m confident the Orioles would give up an absolute haul of players to add Cease to their core right now.  I think people sometimes forgot that with potential trades like this involving a highly valuable, controllable asset is you need the right market conditions to get a really strong return.  Ignore the pure injury risk, there is no guarantee that this off-season or next year that teams will still have both the prospect currency and desire to make a trade like this happen.  Take advantage of an insane seller’s market right now and get multiple partially developed pieces that could help us by 2025.

Look at what happened to the Guardians getting cute and holding on to Bieber for too long...they now might have to try to trade Civale instead to dig up enough offense to get over the finish line.

[T R U]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

Look at what happened to the Guardians getting cute and holding on to Bieber for too long...they now might have to try to trade Civale instead to dig up enough offense to get over the finish line.

Except they can just trade him later or let him walk after next year for a comp pick and they'll develop another Bieber because that's what good organizations can do.

[South Side Hit Men]

25 minutes ago, Rocky said:

According to Garfiens podcast.  Hahn tried multiple times to make some big acquisitions and was told no.  They made it obvious that JR did not want to spend the money to bring in teh guys Hahn wanted.  While Hahn needs to go, he is not the biggest issue.  

Garfin is as big an clown as Bruce Levine.

4 hours ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Out of curiosity, why?  You don’t like his tough guy schtick?

He is a terrible finger pointing teammate like the equally worthless douchebag Keuchel. Lose 50 pounds, take care of yourself and actually try to perform better you morbidly obese assclown.

What I find most amusing over the past 12 hours is Bruce Levine reporting Hahn wanted to get the Giolito deal done so he can focus on trading Lynn which is a salary dump at best. Hahn approached this big decision as he does each year with Free Agents, overpaying extremely against no other offers for marginal at best players in decline like Keuchel and Grandal by Thanksgiving, so he can spend family time into the following year before reading Street and Smiths, Athlon Sports and Baseball America to get a feel on the upcoming year, and determine which internal scouts he can trust.

[caulfield12]

15 minutes ago, Rocky said:

I agree.  He has plenty of fault. 

Would have been nice to see his full plan, if only we didnt have JR as the owner.  

Lost Wheeler...nobody forced him to sign Keuchel.

Or to overpay Lynn when he wasn't in the best shape physically and there would have been much better ways to allocate those dollars but Hahn just had to double own on the Dunning trade by signing another extension.

Benintendi didn't come close to moving any type of needle and now they're tied to four more years of financial commitments when they could have gone with shorter term Conforto or Bellinger types instead.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Garfin is as big an clown as Bruce Levine.

He is a terrible finger pointing teammate like the equally worthless douchebag Keuchel. Lose 50 pounds, take care of yourself and actually try to perform better you morbidly obese assclown.

What I find most amusing over the past 12 hours is Bruce Levine reporting Hahn wanted to get the Giolito deal done so he can focus on trading Lynn which is a salary dump at best. Hahn approached this big decision as he does each year with Free Agents, overpaying extremely against no other offers for marginal at best players in decline like Keuchel and Grandal by Thanksgiving, so he can spend family time into the following year before reading Street and Smiths, Athlon Sports and Baseball America to get a feel on the upcoming year, and determine which internal scouts he can trust.

Visibly getting upset with Robert and Benintendi falling/slipping last night in the outfield and basically showing his teammates up was par for the course while sporting a 6+ ERA.

Addition by subtraction.

Same with Moncada Grandal and Anderson.

[bmags]

I'm not sure any strategy will work with a group this ignorant of scouting and player development. KW lived in a time of ageless veterans still available on free agency. It's over. We need to convert lots of prospects with JR. He thinks they are stupid.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, LittleHurtCG said:

2023 was the tail end of a failed rebuild. Burning it down again isn't going to work. The last 6 years are evidence and proof of that. 

I say let's not trade Cease and Robert, cut some dead weight like Grandal and Lynn, sign some veterans, and go to war in 2024. 

Burning it down isn’t going to work, but somehow the current strategy of going for it with a flawed roster, no money, and no minor league reinforcements magically will now?  Don’t get me wrong, if nothing else changes, nothing is going to work, but the status quo has proven to be a massive failure.