Giolito & Reynaldo to LAA. Update: Angels put on waivers

[soxfan49]

38 minutes ago, Rocky said:

According to Garfiens podcast.  Hahn tried multiple times to make some big acquisitions and was told no.  They made it obvious that JR did not want to spend the money to bring in teh guys Hahn wanted.  While Hahn needs to go, he is not the biggest issue.  

So what? Moncada and Kopech suck. Eloy is constantly hurt. Giolito was decent. Lynn was a waste of a trade. Grandal, Keuchel and Benintendi were crappy signings. None of these guys turned into stars except Robert. What would a big acquisition have done? Got them to 15 under?

Edited July 27, 2023 by soxfan49

[Quin]

53 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

2005 was built in absolutely huge part out of a strong system. Mark Buehrle, Jon Garland, Aaron Rowand, Joe Crede, Paul Konerko were core parts of that roster. Other parts like Garcia were acquired by trades out of guys from that once-strong system. Those guys were not only developed by the White Sox, but having them all pre free-agency was what gave the White Sox the resources to do things like sign Dye and Pierzynski. No matter how many times people say it was a fluke, that team was quite strong for a number of years - frankly, if anything, they were held back by coaching in several of those years.

It is also worth noting that player evaluations have absolutely improved since 2005, and this has made it harder to get away with stealing a Pierzynski.

Paulie was actually trading for a prospect coming off a down year in Cincinnati and hoping that he'd bounce back. Never played in the Sox minor league system.

The 2005 roster was ramshackled together with basically everything - the strong farm system like you highlight - some good (but not blockbuster) FA signings, and career years from guys.

Someone else highlighted it in another thread that it probably validated to Kenny and JR that you can win by going cheap, because they didn't need to sign a big free agent.

Then they were strong for the first half of 2006 before they absolutely cratered out in 2007. Then they drafted Gordon - and in the same draft they got the future Assistant Director of Player Development, Kenny Williams Jr, in the Sixth Round.

[Bob Sacamano]

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Burning it down isn’t going to work, but somehow the current strategy of going for it with a flawed roster, no money, and no minor league reinforcements magically will now?  Don’t get me wrong, if nothing else changes, nothing is going to work, but the status quo has proven to be a massive failure.

And it will continue unfortunately.

[T R U]

2 minutes ago, Quin said:

Paulie was actually trading for a prospect coming off a down year in Cincinnati and hoping that he'd bounce back. Never played in the Sox minor league system.

The 2005 roster was ramshackled together with basically everything - the strong farm system like you highlight - some good (but not blockbuster) FA signings, and career years from guys.

Someone else highlighted it in another thread that it probably validated to Kenny and JR that you can win by going cheap, because they didn't need to sign a big free agent.

Then they were strong for the first half of 2006 before they absolutely cratered out in 2007. Then they drafted Gordon - and in the same draft they got the future Assistant Director of Player Development, Kenny Williams Jr, in the Sixth Round.

Not only that, but they didn't even do anything at the trade deadline except get scrub ass Geoff Blum which ended up winning a World Series game for them and only re-enforcing a belief that you don't have to "go for it" at the deadline.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, Quin said:

Paulie was actually trading for a prospect coming off a down year in Cincinnati and hoping that he'd bounce back. Never played in the Sox minor league system.

The 2005 roster was ramshackled together with basically everything - the strong farm system like you highlight - some good (but not blockbuster) FA signings, and career years from guys.

Someone else highlighted it in another thread that it probably validated to Kenny and JR that you can win by going cheap, because they didn't need to sign a big free agent.

Then they were strong for the first half of 2006 before they absolutely cratered out in 2007. Then they drafted Gordon - and in the same draft they got the future Assistant Director of Player Development, Kenny Williams Jr, in the Sixth Round.

But Konerko is sort of the point. He’s the kind of guy you can steal when you’re rebuilding! They traded Cameron for him, and the Reds got his last pre-arbitration season before he got more expensive. He was a guy acquired from a “rebuilding” type trade, regardless of whether he spent time in the White Sox’s minors right now.

Hes comparable to trading Burger for someone in another team’s minor leagues who won’t be up for a year or two, which you’ll note I’ve advocated for doing.

[ChiSox59]

LAA DFAd LHP Tucker Davidson.  Sox should have taken him back in the deal. Id much rather see what we have with him than Sammy Peralta.  

May well end up on the Sox anyway as if he isn't traded I am sure Sox will put in a claim and they're 3rd in line.

[Bob Sacamano]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

LAA DFAd LHP Tucker Davidson.  Sox should have taken him back in the deal. Id much rather see what we have with him than Sammy Peralta.  

May well end up on the Sox anyway as if he isn't traded I am sure Sox will put in a claim and they're 3rd in line.

Yeah they could use him.

[hankchifan]

36 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

There honest to god might not be a more delusional group of people than the "Hahn isn't that bad" crowd.

You don't need to sign mega free agents to compete. The Sox, under Hahn's watch, are bad at: drafting, Free agency, player development. Hahn was good and is now OK at: signing young guys to decent deals.

It turns out that you actually have to identify and develop those guys for that skill to work.

Rick didn't build a system from the ground up. He tried to build one from the top down, and just like everything he's done he was quickly exposed for the whole world to see.

 

Our first round picks under Hahn leave a lot to be desired.

[kwill]

51 minutes ago, almagest said:

No idea why any of you trust this organization to tank again. They definitively proved they can't do it. It sucks, but they're better off keeping their best, long-term controlled players and filling in the blanks with lightning in the bottle attempts and mid level free agents. Their drafting strategy seems to be improving, but they still need to revamp their player development. Luckily that can happen irrespective of how good or bad the MLB team is.

Because although the White Sox failed in their rebuild attempt their have been plenty that have been successful. O’s, Ray, Astros, Mariners, Braves. 

 

What doesn’t work is trying to buy mid-level free agents and hope to compete. That never works for anybody. Look at the Yankees and Mets- teams that have a s%*# ton of money but have failed in player development. It’s nearly impossible in this day in age to not when by player development. 

[kitekrazy]

So now any potential they have will now be ruined on the farm, if not the big league team will.

[almagest]

7 minutes ago, kwill said:

Because although the White Sox failed in their rebuild attempt their have been plenty that have been successful. O’s, Ray, Astros, Mariners, Braves. 

 

What doesn’t work is trying to buy mid-level free agents and hope to compete. That never works for anybody. Look at the Yankees and Mets- teams that have a s%*# ton of money but have failed in player development. It’s nearly impossible in this day in age to not when by player development. 

You're asking them to do something they've proven they can't do. We've only ever seen them have success with a patchwork, hope for the best strategy, so they might as well go back to that until Jerry dies and we hopefully turn into the Dodgers lite with the next owner.

Edited July 27, 2023 by almagest

[Rocky]

47 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

There honest to god might not be a more delusional group of people than the "Hahn isn't that bad" crowd.

You don't need to sign mega free agents to compete. The Sox, under Hahn's watch, are bad at: drafting, Free agency, player development. Hahn was good and is now OK at: signing young guys to decent deals.

It turns out that you actually have to identify and develop those guys for that skill to work.

Rick didn't build a system from the ground up. He tried to build one from the top down, and just like everything he's done he was quickly exposed for the whole world to see.

 

LOL! I literally said Hahn needed to go.  Interpret what I said as you'd like.  

The fact is the owner is the biggest issue.  

[caulfield12]

25 minutes ago, Quin said:

Paulie was actually trading for a prospect coming off a down year in Cincinnati and hoping that he'd bounce back. Never played in the Sox minor league system.

The 2005 roster was ramshackled together with basically everything - the strong farm system like you highlight - some good (but not blockbuster) FA signings, and career years from guys.

Someone else highlighted it in another thread that it probably validated to Kenny and JR that you can win by going cheap, because they didn't need to sign a big free agent.

Then they were strong for the first half of 2006 before they absolutely cratered out in 2007. Then they drafted Gordon - and in the same draft they got the future Assistant Director of Player Development, Kenny Williams Jr, in the Sixth Round.

Freddy Garcia signed a big extension and then Jose Contreras got it a decent sized contract as a reward for 2005-2006.

Edited July 27, 2023 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

17 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

But Konerko is sort of the point. He’s the kind of guy you can steal when you’re rebuilding! They traded Cameron for him, and the Reds got his last pre-arbitration season before he got more expensive. He was a guy acquired from a “rebuilding” type trade, regardless of whether he spent time in the White Sox’s minors right now.

Hes comparable to trading Burger for someone in another team’s minor leagues who won’t be up for a year or two, which you’ll note I’ve advocated for doing.

What was Cameron's prospect ranking?

Both those guys were high profile ... but especially Konerko and then Cameron was hyped as a five tool outfielder.

 

Could Burger even get a Top 75-100 guy?

As a potentially 30-35 home running hitting 2B?

[kwill]

9 minutes ago, almagest said:

You're asking them to do something they've proven they can't do. We've only ever seen them have success with a patchwork, hope for the best strategy, so they might as well go back to that until Jerry dies and we hopefully turn into the Dodgers lite with the next owner.

Because patchwork does not work. Maybe 17 years ago their was a chance of that working out. In todays baseball as a franchise you can not be successful buying midlevel free agents and competing. 

Every baseball teams model should be teardown, build up and then purchase the best free agents possible to extend your run, tear down again. 

Unless you can be like the Dodgers who purchase players and have an incredible player development program. 

However, You just need to look around the league. What wins is player development. I would rather fail at player development than lose on the outset by not having the right philosophy. 

Look at the fucking Angels. Have two of the best players on earth. Try to patch work free agents and consistently a .500 team. You can't win like that- at least not consistently. 

Tear the mother fucker down. Get A+ and AA players. Try again to win in two years with player development and buying free agents because you have no money on the books. You can probably trade Cease and Robert- get great prospect hauls and be the best minor league system in baseball. 

[South Side Hit Men]

The 2000s were the White Sox their second best decade in the desegregated era, with the two Whites Only 1900s (.563) and 1910s (.535) decades also better.

2000 (+28), 2003 (+10), 2006 (+18) and 2008 (+15) were also solid plus seasons.

Desegregated White Sox Winning Decades

1. 1950s: .5496 847-693-13 (One American League Pennant)
2. 2000s: .5287 857-764 .529 (One World Series)
3. 1960s: .5285 852-760-2
4. 1990s: .5261 816-735-3

[Snopek]

1 hour ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Well my original point was that tanking and rebuilding will never work as long as JR is the owner and Hahn/KW are still here. Your post shows that repeating the process again isn't going to work as JR is still the owner last time I checked. The only way forward is to try to create 2005 again around a base of Cease and Robert. 

The problem is they have much less to work with now than they did at the end of 2004. Buehrle, Freddy, Garland, Konerko, Crede, Uribe and Rowand were all serviceable to good major league starters at that point. Plus the nice trade chip in Carlos Lee.

Now it's Cease, Robert, Benintendi and a whole bunch of question marks.

Which means that's a lot of adding they'd need to do. I don't trust them with another rebuild, but I don't trust them to fill holes in the lightning in a bottle approach either.

[bmags]

30 minutes ago, hankchifan said:

Our first round picks under Hahn leave a lot to be desired.

Yeah, can't get over this part of it though. 

Part 1: 2013-2015

- Hahn inherits Doug Laumann as scouting director

- 2013: Laumann selects Tim Anderson (all star)

- 2014: Laumann selects Carlos Rodon (all star)

- 2015: Laumann selects Carson Fulmer (awful)

Hahn then knows he's going into a rebuild, and handpicks Nick Hostetler to lead the draft where we'll have 2 top 5 picks and 2 top 12 picks.

Hostetler picks (in the top of the draft where you can get super athletic players with some bat skills):

A maxed out 1B/DH (Collins) profile
A reliever (burdi)
A maxed out Corner Infielder (Burger)
A zero power, weak armed 2nd baseman
A maxed out, unathletic first baseman with middling power (Vaughn)

Atrocious. He tore the roster down to studs and was unable to supplement any of his rebuilt team with players from the draft as anything special.

He then took hand picked Hostetler to get him some top free agents. OK. He attacks RF with full force of Nomar Mazara, Adam Eaton and AJ Pollock.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Sox would likley just end up with more stiffs like Moncada and Kopech if they traded away Cease. I've already seen that movie before and the ending sucked. Hard pass. 

The rebuild has already failed. However, you will never hear Hahn use that word. He will talk about disappointment ,but never failure. 

Moncada legit looked special pre-COVID and back problems.  I think we failed him some in terms of development, but there are other factors that have caused him to underperform vs. his potential.

[Bob Sacamano]

15 minutes ago, kwill said:

Because patchwork does not work. Maybe 17 years ago their was a chance of that working out. In todays baseball as a franchise you can not be successful buying midlevel free agents and competing. 

Every baseball teams model should be teardown, build up and then purchase the best free agents possible to extend your run, tear down again. 

Unless you can be like the Dodgers who purchase players and have an incredible player development program. 

However, You just need to look around the league. What wins is player development. I would rather fail at player development than lose on the outset by not having the right philosophy. 

Look at the fucking Angels. Have two of the best players on earth. Try to patch work free agents and consistently a .500 team. You can't win like that- at least not consistently. 

Tear the mother fucker down. Get A+ and AA players. Try again to win in two years with player development and buying free agents because you have no money on the books. You can probably trade Cease and Robert- get great prospect hauls and be the best minor league system in baseball. 

And when the Dodgers spend, it's not crazy like the Mets with Steve Cohen or other deals you look and can say are going to be bad in a couple of years. They're done a very good job on deciding who to spend the big bucks on. Clear superstars like Mookie Betts, Freddie Freeman. Makes it really easy to see that they will land Ohtani (unless of course Steve Cohen goes more insane and throws out a 12-year, like $700M deal or some s%*#.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Bob Sacamano

[T R U]

3 minutes ago, Snopek said:

The problem is they have much less to work with now than they did at the end of 2004. Buehrle, Freddy, Garland, Konerko, Crede, Uribe and Rowand were all serviceable to good major league starters at that point. Plus the nice trade chip in Carlos Lee.

Now it's Cease, Robert, Benintendi and a whole bunch of question marks.

Which means that's a lot of adding they'd need to do. I don't trust them with another rebuild, but I don't trust them to fill holes in the lightning in a bottle approach either.

Benintendi? The guy who hasn't even eclipsed 1 WAR yet..?

The guy were going to be paying $17 million a year to starting next season to be essentially a replacement player...?

Its Cease and Robert. The rest of this team is hot garbage.

[almagest]

13 minutes ago, kwill said:

Because patchwork does not work. Maybe 17 years ago their was a chance of that working out. In todays baseball as a franchise you can not be successful buying midlevel free agents and competing. 

Every baseball teams model should be teardown, build up and then purchase the best free agents possible to extend your run, tear down again. 

Unless you can be like the Dodgers who purchase players and have an incredible player development program. 

However, You just need to look around the league. What wins is player development. I would rather fail at player development than lose on the outset by not having the right philosophy. 

Look at the fucking Angels. Have two of the best players on earth. Try to patch work free agents and consistently a .500 team. You can't win like that- at least not consistently. 

Tear the mother fucker down. Get A+ and AA players. Try again to win in two years with player development and buying free agents because you have no money on the books. You can probably trade Cease and Robert- get great prospect hauls and be the best minor league system in baseball. 

They did all of this already and failed hard. Hahn and company can’t do it. It’s 100% futile. I don’t want to go though this again with these idiots.

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, almagest said:

They did all of this already and failed hard. Hahn and company can’t do it. It’s 100% futile. I don’t want to go though this again with these idiots.

They did most of it but skipped the part where they sign a couple of star free agents for the years most of the core would have been cheap.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Bob Sacamano

[baseball_gal_aly]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

You sure went from Gio isn't returning anything of note to Quero is protected prospect in a hurry.  

No need to deny reality. I was wrong, take the L , move on. 

[T R U]

18 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

They did most of it but skipped the part where they sign a couple of star free agents for the years most of the core would have been cheap.

They had an opportunity to sign two different stars 5 years ago but they didn't, and they were never serious about it. That's why the rebuild was doomed to fail from the start,

Edited July 27, 2023 by T R U