Giolito & Reynaldo to LAA. Update: Angels put on waivers

[LittleHurtCG]

39 minutes ago, joejoesox said:

what's the alternative, given the current ruleset of the game we are playing

Rule #1: Working with a handicapped payroll

Rule #2: Unwilling to sign pitching FAs to long term deals

Rule #3: Zero organizational depth and zero player development 

What's the alternative if we don't blow it up, when they seem to be set on deflating the payroll for the next couple years

Well they just blew it up 6 and a half years ago and have jack s%*# to show for it. Most fans have no desire for another tank job to nowhere. 

The alternative is the only one that has been there all along. The only way to win under JR ownership is the catch lighting in a bottle approach. Sign some veterans to one year prove it deals and hope for the best. Hell, look at what Bellinger is doing for the Cubs this year on a one year deal. Get guys like Michael Lorenzen, Drew Smyly, Steven Matz, Yan Gomes. Tommy Pham, and hope for the best. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

I would absolutely trade Cease and Robert IMO.  Burn it all down

Robert is 25 and one of the best players in the game. No chance I would trade him.

Cease, whatever.

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Robert is 25 and one of the best players in the game. No chance I would trade him.

Cease, whatever.

He’s also your only shot, besides Cease, to bring in potential impact prospects down the road 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

47 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

There's a decent argument for trading Robert. You probably won't get the incredible value you'd want to move an all star with his level of control, but any team acquiring him would still give up a lot, and you'd remove all the risk of him getting hurt or struggling at any point in the next 4 years onto another roster. 

But that said..."what good is more top prospects going to do to help this organization"? - it's literally the only reason they were able to make any playoff appearances in the last decade. They were able to get there because they had enough cheap guys to go sign a few free agents, and that combination together was enough to make even these fools a wild card caliber team. That should tell you about how necessary the strategy is sometimes, it actually got a Rick Hahn/Tony LaRussa team into the playoffs.

I understand being a White Sox fan makes one irrationally delusional from a negative perspective, but Robert is owed 67 million over the next four years with TWO clubs options. Robert has a very good chance of being worth roughly 58-60 million this year alone.

[LittleHurtCG]

10 minutes ago, Tony said:

I know you're just trolling now, but based on the last two years+, especially the results this season...what gives you ANY hope that 2024 will be a competitive year of White Sox baseball? The "core" is not good and there is nothing in the farm system to help. 

No one, and I mean NO ONE, is pining for another rebuild, especially at the hands of Rick Hahn. We've been down that road before. It's not going to work. But building a competitive roster to compete for a World Series isn't going to work either, he's not capable of it. The only hope is for everyone to get fired, outside of that, it's the same bullshit year in and year out. 

Why is that so hard to understand? 

We most certainly agree that the entire front office needs to be fired. I've been beating the fire Rick Hahn drum for a long long time, way before it was the cool and easy thing to do. 

2024 is a new year and hope springs eternal. There is a small chance with some savvy moves, bounce back years, good health, and luck that the Sox are playing meaningful baseball in late September next year. That is really all you can ask for as long as JR is the owner. 

[A-Train to 35th]

https://blogredmachine.com/posts/reds-price-tag-white-sox-starter-dylan-cease-too-high

Dylan Cease could be had for the right package of prospects.

Edited July 27, 2023 by A-Train to 35th
add

[GreenSox]

10 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Robert is 25 and one of the best players in the game. No chance I would trade him.

Cease, whatever.

I certainly wouldn't trade Robert now.  Teams are looking for 1-2 year players in July - that's the demand. 

Re Cease, if they intended to trade him, they have played this pretty well.  The Giolito trade set the baseline expectation.

[Superstar Lamar]

[bmags]

59 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Maybe there's something to this.  They developed Narvaez, who Tampa was struggling to develop.
They made a major league catcher, of sorts,, out of Zavala.
Collins didn't develop, but he had a swing-hitch.  They got what was gettable out of Yermin.
Now they have some talent to develop.

This is more optimistic than me.

With collins, he's not a catcher. Everyone was saying "he's not a catcher". The white sox said "he IS a catcher", and then when we saw him with our eyes we saw he was not a catcher and everyone was right.

Narvaez developed his bat on the sox. There is an interesting retrospective that i think about a lot on if Steverson/Sparks - who actually tried to create an organization-wide hitting philosophy - were pitched to the side just as they were starting to see dividends. 

But the sox said Narvaez couldn't develop enough defensively to make his bat work. This board agreed, I disagreed and said sox should have tried. Seattle started and then Milwaukee finished it.

Seby was said to be an average catcher defensively, the sox play him like he's yadi molina.

The sox took Wellington Castillo and said "framing is now important to us, we are going to pay for this guy who for one year showed he can frame well and do nothing else well defensively". He immediately reverted under sox tutelage.

We had a great success story with McCann, who reworked a swing (under Steverson) and showed that a catcher who can handle a pitching staff can be really great even if other defensive metrics aren't great. They then signed Grandal.

I think overall the sox have shown they really REALLY want offense from the catcher position and will overlook defensive liabilities there. THey have often still not gotten offense from the position consistently, but still live with no defense.

This kid, what he struggles at, is handling a pitching staff. That's a big part of catching. He needs to practice receiving, but is athletic. He's young AND had COVID years taken from him where catchers develop. 

He could be fine where he just learns on his own. But the sox won't know if he's good or bad, they'll only know if they like his bat

[Baron]

You don't let Rick Hahn trade Robert or Cease. You let the next GM do it. 

[bmags]

I"m sympathetic to all sides here.

On one side, fans know the team needs to get better and align to avenues to do that.

On the other side - you have an absolutely incompetent set of people in charge that will not be able to execute even if they take said paths. 

And so maybe you say "well it's better the wrong people take the right path then wrong people take the wrong path to get competitive"

But to be honest I did that in 2017, and I just can't do it again. They don't deserve to make decisions right now. And any one they make I"ll ridicule, because they are too stupid. For christs sakes, we are only 2 years removed from the victory lap of Hahn and Kimbrel and passing the cubs torch. It turns out that was the end, we have a bad farm, a high payroll, and a bunch of players who will be gone with no replacements.

I don't know what to do except talk about the same thing over and over again, but it's true that the only thing productive that can happen is them leave.

Not saying people shouldn't talk about it or be entertained by an entertaining thing (trades r fun), just I cannot believe we are here! How the hell is this group not completely repulsed by the situation and doing a paxson?

[Balta1701]

18 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I understand being a White Sox fan makes one irrationally delusional from a negative perspective, but Robert is owed 67 million over the next four years with TWO clubs options. Robert has a very good chance of being worth roughly 58-60 million this year alone.

You're completely correct.

The White Sox are also 21 games under .500. They are currently 0.5 games away from the top 3 in the draft lottery, that's how bad they are. They are expensive, with several bad contracts for next season. They have zero help coming from the minors next year. Hell I can barely remember the last game they won, I guess it was against the Mets?

Let's say that Luis Robert continues to be worth $60 million a year for the next 2 years. Fantastic. How much value are the White Sox getting from this performance? Are they doing anything with that $60 million in value this year? Isn't this value that the White Sox are effectively wasting, which could be vastly better used by a contender?

If the White Sox could get $30 million in value per year in 2026 through 2032, isn't that worth more to them than $60 million a year in value in 2024 through 2027?

[A-Train to 35th]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

This is more optimistic than me.

With collins, he's not a catcher. Everyone was saying "he's not a catcher". The white sox said "he IS a catcher", and then when we saw him with our eyes we saw he was not a catcher and everyone was right.

Narvaez developed his bat on the sox. There is an interesting retrospective that i think about a lot on if Steverson/Sparks - who actually tried to create an organization-wide hitting philosophy - were pitched to the side just as they were starting to see dividends. 

But the sox said Narvaez couldn't develop enough defensively to make his bat work. This board agreed, I disagreed and said sox should have tried. Seattle started and then Milwaukee finished it.

Seby was said to be an average catcher defensively, the sox play him like he's yadi molina.

The sox took Wellington Castillo and said "framing is now important to us, we are going to pay for this guy who for one year showed he can frame well and do nothing else well defensively". He immediately reverted under sox tutelage.

We had a great success story with McCann, who reworked a swing (under Steverson) and showed that a catcher who can handle a pitching staff can be really great even if other defensive metrics aren't great. They then signed Grandal.

I think overall the sox have shown they really REALLY want offense from the catcher position and will overlook defensive liabilities there. THey have often still not gotten offense from the position consistently, but still live with no defense.

This kid, what he struggles at, is handling a pitching staff. That's a big part of catching. He needs to practice receiving, but is athletic. He's young AND had COVID years taken from him where catchers develop. 

He could be fine where he just learns on his own. But the sox won't know if he's good or bad, they'll only know if they like his bat

They should worry less about a catchers bat and find a defensive catcher and signal caller who can take charge of the pitcher and infield and be a leader.  That's what we need from a catcher.

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

They should worry less about a catchers bat and find a defensive catcher and signal caller who can take charge of the pitcher and infield and be a leader.  That's what we need from a catcher.

Austin Hedges was praised for his work with the Guardians staff a couple years ago. Talk about a non-bat though.

[RG23SoxFan]

6 minutes ago, Baron said:

You don't let Rick Hahn trade Robert or Cease. You let the next GM do it. 

The problem is the next GM will not get here until Cease/Robert contracts are up.  Trade Cease, keep Robert.

[caulfield12]

16 minutes ago, bmags said:

This is more optimistic than me.

With collins, he's not a catcher. Everyone was saying "he's not a catcher". The white sox said "he IS a catcher", and then when we saw him with our eyes we saw he was not a catcher and everyone was right.

Narvaez developed his bat on the sox. There is an interesting retrospective that i think about a lot on if Steverson/Sparks - who actually tried to create an organization-wide hitting philosophy - were pitched to the side just as they were starting to see dividends. 

But the sox said Narvaez couldn't develop enough defensively to make his bat work. This board agreed, I disagreed and said sox should have tried. Seattle started and then Milwaukee finished it.

Seby was said to be an average catcher defensively, the sox play him like he's yadi molina.

The sox took Wellington Castillo and said "framing is now important to us, we are going to pay for this guy who for one year showed he can frame well and do nothing else well defensively". He immediately reverted under sox tutelage.

We had a great success story with McCann, who reworked a swing (under Steverson) and showed that a catcher who can handle a pitching staff can be really great even if other defensive metrics aren't great. They then signed Grandal.

I think overall the sox have shown they really REALLY want offense from the catcher position and will overlook defensive liabilities there. THey have often still not gotten offense from the position consistently, but still live with no defense.

This kid, what he struggles at, is handling a pitching staff. That's a big part of catching. He needs to practice receiving, but is athletic. He's young AND had COVID years taken from him where catchers develop. 

He could be fine where he just learns on his own. But the sox won't know if he's good or bad, they'll only know if they like his bat

And Flowers another that developed away from Chicago.

Edited July 27, 2023 by caulfield12

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

12 minutes ago, Baron said:

You don't let Rick Hahn trade Robert or Cease. You let the next GM do it. 

There won't be a next GM.

[Baron]

2 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

There won't be a next GM.

I think it's 50/50 right now. We'll know in just a short few months. 

[Bob Sacamano]

7 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

And Flowers another that developed away from Chicago.

Exactly. There's no recent track record of them developing catching. Part of the reason why its barren at the position in the minors.

[FT35]

What stings the most is the fact that the more inept the front office proves to be, it becomes more and more obvious that even our World Series title was more than likely of the “catching lightning in a bottle variety” rather than the result of any sort of lasting baseball intelligence.  

[Tony]

35 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

We most certainly agree that the entire front office needs to be fired. I've been beating the fire Rick Hahn drum for a long long time, way before it was the cool and easy thing to do. 

2024 is a new year and hope springs eternal. There is a small chance with some savvy moves, bounce back years, good health, and luck that the Sox are playing meaningful baseball in late September next year. That is really all you can ask for as long as JR is the owner. 

Yeah, I’m not comfortable resting on an old phrase to base actual roster decisions on. 

I’ve said for the last year + none of this matters until new leadership is brought in. No matter what route they go, it’s all pointless. But I can’t get on board with “Hey, let’s root for them just getting lucky one year, maybe it all comes together like it did in 2005”

That’s not good enough. Jerry only has so much time left, based on the current construction of this organization, I’d rather them move the spare parts for younger players that ideally someone else can leverage as the years go on, hopefully they hit on a few. That’s about the best we can hope for. Running it back with the same group next year is insane 

[Kyyle23]

Just now, FT35 said:

What stings the most is the fact that the more inept the front office proves to be, it becomes more and more obvious that even our World Series title was more than likely of the “catching lightning in a bottle variety” rather than the result of any sort of lasting baseball intelligence.  

Honestly after 2006 I never viewed it any other way than lightning in a bottle 

[T R U]

4 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Honestly after 2006 I never viewed it any other way than lightning in a bottle 

Hey, it still counts though

[Tony]

This would work...

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Tony said:

This would work...

What am I looking at here? Is there a website that turns out future projections for prospects like this?