Will the Sox tear it down/rebuild for multiple years, or try to "compete" next year?

[ron883]

What do you think? I feel like it will be the typical White Sox way of trying to compete with a team that likely won't make the playoffs, then they don't make the playoffs

[South Side Hit Men]

They will lie as they have in the past and say they are trying to compete in 2024, but as in all but one year since 1959, they will be short the players to do it.

Jerry's Passing + Probate + MLB New Owner Approval + Transition Period + 2-3 + Years = Next Competitive White Sox Team.

[joejoesox]

50/50 chance, I think if TA is traded that'll signal the demolition crew is coming, same with Robert or Cease

[tray]

Bob Nightengale via Twitter:

 

"The White Sox certainly could be major players in free agency this winter after shedding about $25 million in their three trades.

 

Catcher Yasmani Grandal's $18.25 million salary is also coming off the books after the season."

-----------------------

That is starting to look like it may be their plan.

[EloyJenkins]

1 minute ago, tray said:

Bob Nightengale via Twitter:

 

"The White Sox certainly could be major players in free agency this winter after shedding about $25 million in their three trades.

 

Catcher Yasmani Grandal's $18.25 million salary is also coming off the books after the season."

-----------------------

That is starting to look like it may be their plan.

So they have money for 2 players...but now have 4 mammoth sized pitching holes....still no 2nd baseman, a 3rd baseman with a back problem and no starting catcher ready until 2025. Great plan. 

[baseball_gal_aly]

Can you put compete in quotes? 

Edited July 29, 2023 by baseballgalaly

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, EloyJenkins said:

So they have money for 2 players...but now have 4 mammoth sized pitching holes....still no 2nd baseman, a 3rd baseman with a back problem and no starting catcher ready until 2025. Great plan. 

And given their reputation and on-field performance to get a very good free agent they'll probably have to overpay.

[caulfield12]

Still need to make big decisions on Eloy TA Moncada.

Grandal will be gone one way or another.

That's if they really want to change the tenor around this team and start to instill a more positive team culture.  It's pretty clear Anderson doesn't see himself as a team leader anymore.

 

Asked if he knows what went wrong for the underachieving White Sox, Anderson shook his head.

"I don't. I wish I did. That's a crazy question," Anderson said. "It's life. Things happen. I try not to think about it. ... I control what I can control. Whatever happens is going to happen anyway."

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/38082036/mlb-trade-deadline-2023-chicago-cubs-white-sox-rumors-buzz

Edited July 29, 2023 by caulfield12

[Chimpton]

As usual Hahn will go for a bodge job of trying to do both and then achieve neither.

[zisk]

just trade TA and call it a day. his attitude being removed from the clubhouse would complete the turn around.

 

[soxfan49]

10 hours ago, tray said:

Bob Nightengale via Twitter:

 

"The White Sox certainly could be major players in free agency this winter after shedding about $25 million in their three trades.

 

Catcher Yasmani Grandal's $18.25 million salary is also coming off the books after the season."

-----------------------

That is starting to look like it may be their plan.

Oh please. Boob has been carrying this organization's water for years. Every year he says their PLAN is to spend big in free agency and then they leave with boners like Benintendi and Grandal

They will "try to compete" next year and chalk it up to a winnable division. Rinse repeat. f*** this organization from the owner to the bullpen catcher

[Chicago White Sox]

10 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

Oh please. Boob has been carrying this organization's water for years. Every year he says their PLAN is to spend big in free agency and then they leave with boners like Benintendi and Grandal

They will "try to compete" next year and chalk it up to a winnable division. Rinse repeat. f*** this organization from the owner to the bullpen catcher

IMO, this is very likely KW negotiating through the media and trying to make the appearance that we’ll try to compete next year to help build up leverage in potential trades of controllable guys.  Hahn was incredibly awkward yesterday when asked by Merkin what the direction of the club was.  Clearly he did not want to say we’d be going for it next year.  I really think bigger trades are coming in these next couple of days.

[SoCalChiSox]

47 minutes ago, zisk said:

just trade TA and call it a day. his attitude being removed from the clubhouse would complete the turn around.

 

Only if there's real value in return. Now that he's turning it around, we can't give him away for free.

[Timmy U]

KW's instinct is never to rebuild.  If he clears out enough cash and decides to build a bullpen out of Santos and spare parts, he might be planning on signing 1 bat, 1 arm (Bellinger would fit in rf, and let's say Snell). Then he could either use the prospects acquired in low leverage parts of the roster (pen, 5th starter etc) or flip some of it to get trade targets. KW loves his 3-1 deals to acquire personal favorites. I'm not saying this would work, I'm just saying I could see KW thinking along these lines.

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, zisk said:

just trade TA and call it a day. his attitude being removed from the clubhouse would complete the turn around.

Shipping Lynn out was a breath of fresh air yesterday for the entire team, and they responded with a 3-0 shutout. The team can come together and play for each other now that finger pointing selfish trash is out of the dugout.

Speaking of which not sure any team on the planet wants anything to do with Clevinger, but hopefully he will pitch well tonight and some desperate team will want him, so we can be proud of supporting all the players on the team.

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

IMO, this is very likely KW negotiating through the media and trying to make the appearance that we’ll try to compete next year to help build up leverage in potential trades of controllable guys.  Hahn was incredibly awkward yesterday when asked by Merkin what the direction of the club was.  Clearly he did not want to say we’d be going for it next year.  I really think bigger trades are coming in these next couple of days.

Idk why you do this to yourself. They said they're not moving cease/TA and they're not imo. You're just setting yourself up for disappointment. They will try to patch work a roster next year. This is who they are.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

40 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Shipping Lynn out was a breath of fresh air yesterday for the entire team, and they responded with a 3-0 shutout. The team can come together and play for each other now that finger pointing selfish trash is out of the dugout.

Speaking of which not sure any team on the planet wants anything to do with Clevinger, but hopefully he will pitch well tonight and some desperate team will want him, so we can be proud of supporting all the players on the team.

 

I love how when you don't like a guy personally, it means all the players also hate him.

[Colome's Hat]

46 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Shipping Lynn out was a breath of fresh air yesterday for the entire team, and they responded with a 3-0 shutout. The team can come together and play for each other now that finger pointing selfish trash is out of the dugout.

Speaking of which not sure any team on the planet wants anything to do with Clevinger, but hopefully he will pitch well tonight and some desperate team will want him, so we can be proud of supporting all the players on the team.

 

It was widely reported that Lynn was one of the few leaders on the team and someone who also showed accountability.

[The Kids Can Play]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Still need to make big decisions on Eloy TA Moncada.

Grandal will be gone one way or another.

That's if they really want to change the tenor around this team and start to instill a more positive team culture.  It's pretty clear Anderson doesn't see himself as a team leader anymore.

 

I control what I can control. 

 

Hey Tim what is your definition of control? Your season sure doesn't look to be in good control!

[The Kids Can Play]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

IMO, this is very likely KW negotiating through the media and trying to make the appearance that we’ll try to compete next year to help build up leverage in potential trades of controllable guys.  Hahn was incredibly awkward yesterday when asked by Merkin what the direction of the club was.  Clearly he did not want to say we’d be going for it next year.  I really think bigger trades are coming in these next couple of days.

I agree with you. Most Sox fans do not want to hear about another total rebuild. The Sox already are dealing with a huge negative image. Thus if JR, Kenny and RH were actually going to keep selling off before the deadline, there is no way they are going to let us know, until we actually see if with our own eyes.

As long as they keep dumping players, they might as well keep dumping more. This way you are assured of continued improvement of this horrible farm system and also assured of finishing the season bad enough for the lottery chance at the #1 pick.

 

 

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, Colome's Hat said:

It was widely reported that Lynn was one of the few leaders on the team and someone who also showed accountability.

He continuously showed up players, including his final appearance with Benintendi, perhaps others.

He showed zero accountability between his performances and his playing shape. Admitted to only being motivated because he was pissed someone bunted and his fat ass had to fetch the ball in Anaheim.

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I love how when you don't like a guy personally, it means all the players also hate him.

Can’t speak for the entire team, but would wager many were happy after he and Keuchel left. These are the only two with widely reported issues and blowups pouting yelling and bitching at others, when it was primarily they who sucked ass, with Keuchel the worst of the two, with multiple accounts of him throwing teammates and manager under the bus.

Clevinger is the only other player I dislike. Have to go back to David Wells to find the only other Sox player I did not like since 1975.

Edited July 29, 2023 by South Side Hit Men

[Texsox]

3 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Shipping Lynn out was a breath of fresh air yesterday for the entire team, and they responded with a 3-0 shutout. The team can come together and play for each other now that finger pointing selfish trash is out of the dugout.

Speaking of which not sure any team on the planet wants anything to do with Clevinger, but hopefully he will pitch well tonight and some desperate team will want him, so we can be proud of supporting all the players on the team.

 

What a bunch of whiny, self entitled, babies if Lynn caused them to be under .500

These guys couldn't handle a regular job if this affects them so much. No wonder this franchise sucks. They hire children. 

[South Side Hit Men]

26 minutes ago, Texsox said:

What a bunch of whiny, self entitled, babies if Lynn caused them to be under .500

These guys couldn't handle a regular job if this affects them so much. No wonder this franchise sucks. They hire children. 

When a finger pointing whiner who performs poorly at work and on behalf of the team is gone, the rest of the workers / work team are relieved.

Lynn has a negative 1.2 bWAR, a 6.47 ERA and has been a negative WAR player overall starting with his crapping the bed in Houston to start the 2021 playoffs.

Also, the owner and FO have been children this entire time. People, be it potential management hires or free agents from the outside look at this shitshow and say hard pass.

This is why the only FAs they get are players with literally zero other MLB options, and why solid managerial candidates like Joe Espada say thanks but no thanks, and will stick out their bench coaching gig rather than go through what a poor Pedro Grigio is going through with Jerry, Hahn and what they “built” over the past decade.

Edited July 29, 2023 by South Side Hit Men

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, Timmy U said:

KW's instinct is never to rebuild.  If he clears out enough cash and decides to build a bullpen out of Santos and spare parts, he might be planning on signing 1 bat, 1 arm (Bellinger would fit in rf, and let's say Snell). Then he could either use the prospects acquired in low leverage parts of the roster (pen, 5th starter etc) or flip some of it to get trade targets. KW loves his 3-1 deals to acquire personal favorites. I'm not saying this would work, I'm just saying I could see KW thinking along these lines.

Can't imagine a bigger contract to Snell than they wouldn't even consider for Giolito ($150-175 million vs. the $50+ million they wanted Gio to accept)...and buying Bellinger as if he's the 2019 MVP again just seems like classic White Sox move under Hahn.

Merkin's on the phone right now on the Rosenbloom Show and it seems like Merkin is trying to distance himself as much as possible without agreeing that he basically should be fired.

 

Defending him by saying a lot of teams "go through rebuilds" (compared to Royals and Astros and Cubs).

Those banners fly or stay forever, defending the Cubs and Royals as if the White Sox experienced the exact same World Series successes, lol.

Should fans feel insulted?

Comparing Sale and (now) Giolito wanting to stay there during Rebuild 1.0 where they dealt Peavy for Avi Garcia and brought in Abreu and Anderson and Rodon in that period.

There's just no way there's going to bring Lucas back in FA, even though they can throw that out there was an option.

 

[caulfield12]

So we're now officially on Rebuild #3 under Hahn.  Along with Jose Abreu, the Sox had added Rodon and Tim Anderson through the draft to go along with the likes of Sale, Q (2012 team) and eventually Avi and Eaton...

 

The Red Sox got former Cy Young winner Jake Peavy from Chicago, as well as reliever Brayan Villarreal from Detroit. The White Sox got Avisail García from Detroit, and Frankie Montas, J.B. Wendelken, and Cleuluis Rondón from Boston. Finally, the Tigers got José Iglesias from Boston.

This move was from trade deadline 2013.

Of his 50 signings since taking over as White Sox GM, just eight have given the White Sox surplus value. That's a woeful, almost unfathomable 16% clip.

 

 

So, right off, the dirty details for Hahn:

Signings 50
Positive surplus value (SV) players 8
Salary paid to free agents $568,235,053
WAR value of those free agents $213,698,292
SV of free agents -$354,536,761

Unlike Hahn’s trade history — most notably the “rebuild deals” and anything having to do with Adam Eaton — there is no “hot stretch” for the GM in free agency.

A full class-by-class assessment can’t run all the way up to 2022, because in some cases, players (say, Yasmani Grandal) still have time left on their deals to improve or hurt the overall class’ SV. 

 

A White Sox GM Rick Hahn Assessment, Part One: Trades - South Side Sox

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by caulfield12