The clubhouse vibe...

[Lip Man 1]

DVS of the Sun-Times takes a closer look at it (and it wasn't good):

https://chicago.suntimes.com/white-sox/2023/7/31/23814668/white-sox-focus-loosen-up-have-some-fun

It dovetails with what I was told by multiple sources for the story I put together on the "State of the Sox" headed into this year:

“The problem with this team is there was no real leadership, nobody to hold guys accountable. No red-asses like the Sox had in the past… Carlton Fisk, Jack McDowell, A.J. Pierzynski. Paul Konerko was a quiet guy but when we weren’t doing well he’d get really pissed. Elvis Andrus tried to supply some leadership when he came and Lucas Giolito tried.”

“I’d come into the locker room after a game and you couldn’t tell if they won or lost, just nothing.”

“You’d go in the locker room and all the Latino guys would be in one place, the whites in another and the African-Americans someplace else.”

“I had heard that groups were apart and not close but part of that could be human nature, language divisions for example. I know the Latin guys were always around Jose’s locker, Moncada was always there. The Sox locker room is a big square so guys aren’t close to start with, the Cubs locker room is circular. I don’t know if that was by design or what but that lends itself to guys getting together.”

“The problem is some of these guys just don’t care, they want to win sure but they already have gotten their money with these contracts before they proved anything. Moncada would strike out and just walk back to the dugout like no big deal, he fouls a ball off and now he can’t play for three days? His contract makes him untradable but he needs to go.”

“There was a lack of urgency the entire season. People would say the right things but they never translated.”

“To me it was the May 9 game with Cleveland, (Author’s Note: The Sox blew an 8-2, 9^th inning lead and lost in extra innings which snapped a six-game win streak.) That showed Cleveland that they could play with the Sox but what I noticed was the only person that game seemed to bother was Tony LaRussa. Another one was the Triple Play Game  against the Twins. (Author’s Note: The Sox ran themselves into an 8-5 triple play on July 4. They wound up losing the game 6-3 in extra innings) Adam Engel faced the music afterwards, he made a mistake and owned up to it. Moncada who also made a mistake was nowhere, he was already gone. Then the next day he was saying that he didn’t know people wanted to talk with him.”

“They were the most disappointing team in baseball. They were consistently redundant, by that I mean day after day they’d make errors, have dumb base running mistakes, take bad approaches at the plate and lack effort. They were the dumbest, laziest team in baseball, I don’t know if they were the most disappointing team ever in Chicago but I’ve used the phrase that the 2022 White Sox were “Trying Barely”… they reminded me of the 2004 Cubs.”

 

 

[chetkincaid]

Eh… I think this clubhouse leader thing is highly overrated. These are grown ass men and having some red ass in the locker room yelling at players isn’t going to fix things. As a matter of fact, I could see things being worse. The White Sox need better coaches and players. 

[chitownsportsfan]

Cool narrative, but horseshit players and teams fail between the lines first.

[Chimpton]

1 hour ago, chetkincaid said:

Eh… I think this clubhouse leader thing is highly overrated. These are grown ass men and having some red ass in the locker room yelling at players isn’t going to fix things. As a matter of fact, I could see things being worse. The White Sox need better coaches and players. 

To be honest many sports teams dressing rooms are populated by people who are not 'grown ass men' mentally, they may be physically. Elite sportsmen have usually led a sheltered and coveted lifestyle from an early age when their talent became apparent. They are used to people bending over backwards to please them, by the time they reach the MLB or any elite sports level too many of them think that 'they have made it' and don't really take on criticism or have any self criticism. That is why someone from their peer group of players who either leads by example or call them out when they are not performing is often the difference between a team like the White Sox who drift along and underachieve and a team that is motivated and over achieves.

Coaches and managers do play a part, but players know that usually the manager or coaches will be the first to be sacked for poor performance because that is easier than getting rid of a whole number of players. The rot set in under TLR but it seems to have got far worse under Grifol, it makes you wonder if there is any player backing up what the manager says. The big trouble is that once this indifference has set in it takes a very charismatic manager or strong player leaders to change the culture, and it would appear the White Sox have neither.

[SCCWS]

6 hours ago, Chimpton said:

To be honest many sports teams dressing rooms are populated by people who are not 'grown ass men' mentally, they may be physically. Elite sportsmen have usually led a sheltered and coveted lifestyle from an early age when their talent became apparent. They are used to people bending over backwards to please them, by the time they reach the MLB or any elite sports level too many of them think that 'they have made it' and don't really take on criticism or have any self criticism. That is why someone from their peer group of players who either leads by example or call them out when they are not performing is often the difference between a team like the White Sox who drift along and underachieve and a team that is motivated and over achieves.

Coaches and managers do play a part, but players know that usually the manager or coaches will be the first to be sacked for poor performance because that is easier than getting rid of a whole number of players. The rot set in under TLR but it seems to have got far worse under Grifol, it makes you wonder if there is any player backing up what the manager says. The big trouble is that once this indifference has set in it takes a very charismatic manager or strong player leaders to change the culture, and it would appear the White Sox have neither.

Teams lose and we see all the stories of 25 players, 25 cabs.  Teams win and we see all the stories of teamwork. Maybe the White Sox didn't spend time finding players who have a team purpose as well as a player purpose.  The Red Sox had the 25 cabs but eventually some key players like Johnny Damon and Mike Lowell were key players that helped turn their fortunes around. But they were not star players but were able to fill a need.   Somebody in the White Sox organization needs to find these guys as well as the Cease and Robert to go along with them.  

[bmags]

6 hours ago, Chimpton said:

To be honest many sports teams dressing rooms are populated by people who are not 'grown ass men' mentally, they may be physically. Elite sportsmen have usually led a sheltered and coveted lifestyle from an early age when their talent became apparent. They are used to people bending over backwards to please them, by the time they reach the MLB or any elite sports level too many of them think that 'they have made it' and don't really take on criticism or have any self criticism. That is why someone from their peer group of players who either leads by example or call them out when they are not performing is often the difference between a team like the White Sox who drift along and underachieve and a team that is motivated and over achieves.

Coaches and managers do play a part, but players know that usually the manager or coaches will be the first to be sacked for poor performance because that is easier than getting rid of a whole number of players. The rot set in under TLR but it seems to have got far worse under Grifol, it makes you wonder if there is any player backing up what the manager says. The big trouble is that once this indifference has set in it takes a very charismatic manager or strong player leaders to change the culture, and it would appear the White Sox have neither.

I think baseball is probably the least bad of this just because it's hard to say these guys who go thru minor league systems in small towns with very little infrastructure were being coddled.

But what is important is finding players who cannot stop trying to improve their craft, and were not just players with insane talent that could get by and just let it work itself out.

Baseball adjusts too much, and pairing players who desire to grow with strong development programs is a super power for places like the Rays/Astros/Dodgers.

The sox could still feasibly get a bunch of players that want to grow but have nothing to offer them, so we'd just need those players to pay for private help in the offseason (Giolito) and hope it works out.