Burger To Marlins

[Kyyle23]

8 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

As as usual you have no defense for your idiocy and bluster.

I figured being overconfident and condescending like you was a shitty way to post, so here we are 

[wrathofhahn]

13 hours ago, bmags said:

People are too harsh on this on both sides.

Jake could hit the ball harder than pretty much every other player in baseball. And in the air.

If he can make incremental progress on walks he can greatly increase his value.

For that, the Sox got a really great pitching prospect.

This board loves comps that exclusively live in the white Sox world…and I can see this being a Brandon McCarthy for Johnny Danks swap.

I don't think you can expect or be worried that happens. Burger will be 28 at the start of next year.

If you are worried about every non-obp, non-avg, tower power type 1B/DH turning into something then your 40 man roster would be full of Sheets and Palka types.

Right now what Burger is doesn't project much better than replacement level moving forward. If the Marlins can unlock something hidden in him you tip your cap to them but you always take the top 100 prospect when offered and move on.

This isn't even really a controversial trade.

[wrathofhahn]

8 hours ago, hankchifan said:

Burger got 2 hits and a walk in the Marlins win tonight.  Made good contact. Good defense.  Showing energy. I still don’t like this trade.  Burger has been improving, and we need sluggers in our team.  Burger interview after the game said he liked the Marlins clubhouse energy and the feeling that they are never out of the game, and he was warmly welcomed.  I think this was a dig at the Sox clubhouse in a way.

If he didn't have a hit and walk in his first game would you have been fine with the trade?

I refuse to live game to game or series to series with Burger. Call me after the season and if he has a ton of walks with the Marlins Ill say well maybe it's time to revise how we think about Burger heading into next season

[zisk]

Jake's Miami debut. 2 singles and a walk. Sox with out Jake. 4singles and a walk.

[caulfield12]

"In a deadline where bats were there for the taking, the Marlins overpaid. I don’t think their Jake Burger/Jake Eder swap was quite so bad, because they’re getting future years of control from Burger and Eder is a phenomenally risky prospect, but it’s a sign of the same thing that bothered me about the other trades. Sure, Burger will be around for longer than a rental, but you could plug a series of veterans into that role, and there’s no guarantee that Burger will be playable for his entire Miami tenure. The Marlins got half of the equation right – it’s time to go out and get some hitters and relievers – but then they went about it in a bizarre way."

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2023-trade-deadline-winners-and-losers/

Edited August 3, 2023 by caulfield12

[soxfan49]

13 hours ago, YonderLaroche said:

2023 Burger 》2022+ Moncada.  Fun fact big brain Hahn wanted Benitendi and Jackie Bradley over Yoan and Kopech.  So I guess it could be worse 

Huh? Those 2 guys are better than Moncada and Kopech

[caulfield12]

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=300&type=1&season=2023&month=0&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=14,27&filter=&players=0&startdate=2023-01-01&enddate=2023-12-31&sort=10,d&page=2_30

There are only thirty three 27-and-younger hitters with 800+ ops numbers in MLB

 

Braves 4

Padres 3

Rangers 3

Red Sox 3

White Sox 3   Robert Burger Eloy

[bmags]

1 hour ago, wrathofhahn said:

I don't think you can expect or be worried that happens. Burger will be 28 at the start of next year.

If you are worried about every non-obp, non-avg, tower power type 1B/DH turning into something then your 40 man roster would be full of Sheets and Palka types.

Right now what Burger is doesn't project much better than replacement level moving forward. If the Marlins can unlock something hidden in him you tip your cap to them but you always take the top 100 prospect when offered and move on.

This isn't even really a controversial trade.

Actually Palka is the perfect example of how incremental progress in certain areas, where you may not even make them PLUS just less below average, can turn a player from ok to good.

But first - Palka could not recreate 2018 at all in 2019, because suddenly he couldn't hit fastballs. Burger has hit the s%*# out of them consistently.

Big difference between Palka and Burger is Palka in 2018 could hurt fastballs and was fine with offspeed but could not handle anything breaking. Burger is fine with breaking pitches and Fastballs, but because he is hunting for fastballs and swings a lot, he's clearly destroyed by not being able to pick up when a change-up is coming.

Palka is a much easier profile there...just throw him breaking stuff.

palka had much worse xBAs than Burger does, largely because of Burgers pull tendencies in a shiftless game. He hits it hard as hell to players closer to him, so even grounders fare better than palka.

But basically - with some better approach where he prepares for offspeed better, gets more selective, and can move from 33rd percentile to 40%, you end up with a really strong offensive profile even if he hits for low average.

And...Gavin Sheets?

This is Gavin Sheets

This is Jake Burger

They aren't remotely the same player.

We also need to get used to players maturing later due to COVID. Jake Burger lost 3 years to achilles, and then another 2 months in 2021 to COVID restrictions in the minors.

He can absolutely improve at the margins of walk rate and chase rate.

 

[The Kids Can Play]

10 hours ago, hankchifan said:

Burger got 2 hits and a walk in the Marlins win tonight.  Made good contact. Good defense.  Showing energy. I still don’t like this trade.  Burger has been improving, and we need sluggers in our team.  Burger interview after the game said he liked the Marlins clubhouse energy and the feeling that they are never out of the game, and he was warmly welcomed.  I think this was a dig at the Sox clubhouse in a way.

Shocking! I didn't see that coming! Wow, another ex-Sox player pointing out discreetly some negativity and a toxic culture in the Sox clubhouse. ?

Good for Jake. He was a class act and now he gets to play for a team that appreciates his passion and energy. 

For great dudes like Giolito and Burger, who were initially upset they were traded...good things actually happened. Once they landed in their new homes, they are now seeing it truly was a "blessing in disguise!" 

In the meantime, our window of contention continues on with our great owner JR and his brilliant GM RH. We are so fortunate to be loyal die-hard fans of this well run organization with so much accountability. Thank you Jerry and Rick, may we please have more fun years ahead with your greatness bestowed upon us! 

[The Kids Can Play]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I don’t think Burger took any shots at the White Sox. He almost cried talking about being traded. He loved being a White Sox.

I agree with you Jake didn't take any direct derogatory shots at the Sox clubhouse. Jake is too classy for that. However even if unintentional, just saying how much fun he was having, how the teammates greeted him and how his new team always believes they can come back and win, is pretty much a comment which ends up being seen as a dig at the toxic culture in the Sox clubhouse. 

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I agree with you Jake didn't take any direct derogatory shots at the Sox clubhouse. Jake is too classy for that. However even if unintentional, just saying how much fun he was having, how the teammates greeted him and how his new team always believes they can come back and win, is pretty much a comment which ends up being seen as a dig at the toxic culture in the Sox clubhouse. 

And they have Soler/Avi Garcia down there in Miami...who weren't exactly players with the greatest clubhouse reps in Chicago.

 

[Kyyle23]

Jim Callis was on the score this morning at 8:30 and broke down the trade, he is a fan of Eder

[The Kids Can Play]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

And they have Soler/Avi Garcia down there in Miami...who weren't exactly players with the greatest clubhouse reps in Chicago.

 

Where are you getting this from? Do you have some specific documentation on this. Fans would get upset over Avi Garcia performance, but I don't recall any teammates saying publicly he was a cancer in the clubhouse. 

I also don't recall Soler being a problem. I have a good friend that lives in Atlanta and he always loved having Soler on their team in 2021 when they won the WS and apparently the fans and teammates liked him. 

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying the Marlins clubhouse is toxic and the same as the Sox? I hope you aren't telling us that the Sox clubhouse is one tight close knit group.

[hogan873]

The hot takes are flowing like a waterfall.  Not just around Burger, but also Giolito, Lynn, Lopez, etc.  White Sox Twitter (or White Sox X, I guess now) is virtually impossible to read.  Burger had a nice game and had some great post game comments.  I'm glad he's happy there, and I hope he tears the cover off the ball forever.

But we hate the White Sox organization so much that we look at one outing after a player is traded and attribute their success to the fact that they don't play for the Sox anymore.  Realistically, Jake will probably have very similar offensive numbers in Miami as he did here.  If he's happier, that's great.  Good for him and for the Marlins.

Look at Giolito.  He had a decent first outing (very 2023 Gio-like) and a horrible second outing.  Lynn had a very 2023 Lance-like outing.  They will probably both perform similarly to how they did in Chicago this year.  A change of scenery can do some good, but it won't change who a player is performance-wise that much.

The White Sox fucked up the rebuild so badly, and we're right to want big changes.  Maybe some changes will occur after this year, maybe not.  But most of us will be back.  It's okay to love the team and the players and hate the organization.

But, man, we can't look at one game after a player is traded and say, "See!  I knew he sucked because he played for the White Sox.  We got boned in that trade."

Edited August 3, 2023 by hogan873

[White Sox Park]

4 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I don’t think Burger took any shots at the White Sox. He almost cried talking about being traded. He loved being a White Sox.

Yea, it was just another in a line of come from behind wins for the Marlins, which they do a lot . I think that Jake was just excited.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

I don't think you can expect or be worried that happens. Burger will be 28 at the start of next year.

If you are worried about every non-obp, non-avg, tower power type 1B/DH turning into something then your 40 man roster would be full of Sheets and Palka types.

Right now what Burger is doesn't project much better than replacement level moving forward. If the Marlins can unlock something hidden in him you tip your cap to them but you always take the top 100 prospect when offered and move on.

This isn't even really a controversial trade.

comparing palka nad burger is laughable

[caulfield12]

18 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Where are you getting this from? Do you have some specific documentation on this. Fans would get upset over Avi Garcia performance, but I don't recall any teammates saying publicly he was a cancer in the clubhouse. 

I also don't recall Soler being a problem. I have a good friend that lives in Atlanta and he always loved having Soler on their team in 2021 when they won the WS and apparently the fans and teammates liked him. 

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying the Marlins clubhouse is toxic and the same as the Sox? I hope you aren't telling us that the Sox clubhouse is one tight close knit group.

Avi was simply the Miguel Cabrera cheating scandal...and Eloy Jimenez-esque lackadaisical attitude.  Soler it was more that some felt he moped when the Cubs werent giving him regular playing time and when he was getting hurt all the time in Chicago.  Whispers around both players about work ethic when they were younger.

 

The one interesting thing to note is that the Miami clubhouse has been one of the most Latin influenced in baseball over the last 10-15 years but the chemistry hasn't usually been brought up....rather ownership stadiums budgets Jeter.

.

 

Pretty hard to believe Renteria is the only one capable of creating a positive/fun or loose vibe when our last three managers spoke Spanish fluently.

[caulfield12]

Palka is a lot closer to Dan Pasqua

[The Kids Can Play]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Avi was simply the Miguel Cabrera cheating scandal...and Eloy Jimenez-esque lackadaisical attitude.  Soler it was more that some felt he moped when the Cubs werent giving him regular playing time and when he was getting hurt all the time in Chicago.  Whispers around both players about work ethic when they were younger.

 

The one interesting thing to note is that the Miami clubhouse has been one of the most Latin influenced in baseball over the last 10-15 years but the chemistry hasn't usually been brought up....rather ownership stadiums budgets Jeter.

.

 

Pretty hard to believe Renteria is the only one capable of creating a positive/fun or loose vibe when our last three managers spoke Spanish fluently.

I don't know dude, but I've seen some of the Marlin games this year and their team looks to be having a lot of fun. I guess winning will do that. Maybe in the past some of the Marlin teams had issues, but this is 2023 and they are young and playing with energy. If you are going to tell us the Marlins clubhouse today is just as bad as the Sox, then please give us specific documentation and articles and not this I heard some rumors.

The difference here with our Sox clubhouse, is the fact we already know there is a problem in our clubhouse. Several ex-players have mentioned this publicly. We also saw first hand on video in the clubhouse when it was announced TA made the all-star team. 

Btw, its not at all hard to see why Renteria was the only one to get this team playing together and hard. Just look at the two loser managers you are comparing him to. 

[South Side Hit Men]

51 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

And they have Soler/Avi Garcia down there in Miami...who weren't exactly players with the greatest clubhouse reps in Chicago.

The same people leaking about clubhouse cancers are the people responsible for creating a league bottom roster and trying to cover their ass.

The primary documented clubhouse cancer the past four seasons was Tony La Russa.

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The one interesting thing to note is that the Miami clubhouse has been one of the most Latin influenced in baseball over the last 10-15 years but the chemistry hasn't usually been brought up....rather ownership stadiums budgets Jeter.

Pretty hard to believe Renteria is the only one capable of creating a positive/fun or loose vibe when our last three managers spoke Spanish fluently.

Jeter and Mattingly are just god awful at their jobs. Jester lost out in his power struggle and it has done wonders for that organization.

You can say the same thing in reference to the jobs Jerry, Kenny and Rick Hahn have done over the years.

Renteria was a decent human being, and the only one who held players accountable over Hahn’s tenure. He earned the the respect of his players. Tony was openly mocked by their top players after he was exposed being out of touch with modern baseball, the rules, and his completely backwards strategery.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

52 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Jim Callis was on the score this morning at 8:30 and broke down the trade, he is a fan of Eder

They probably could have had him for Eloy.

[Kyyle23]

Avisail as far as I recall never had clubhouse issues after the Detroit thing, and I think the cubs moved on from soler because he was more or less blocked at the major league level and the cubs dealt him for a closer in the middle of their run.  

[pcq]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

And they have Soler/Avi Garcia down there in Miami...who weren't exactly players with the greatest clubhouse reps in Chicago.

 

Jake having fun I would too.

[The Kids Can Play]

11 minutes ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

They probably could have had him for Eloy.

Yeah but the genius Hahn told us Eloy was one of his core players and Jake was not. ?

[caulfield12]

18 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I don't know dude, but I've seen some of the Marlin games this year and their team looks to be having a lot of fun. I guess winning will do that. Maybe in the past some of the Marlin teams had issues, but this is 2023 and they are young and playing with energy. If you are going to tell us the Marlins clubhouse today is just as bad as the Sox, then please give us specific documentation and articles and not this I heard some rumors.

The difference here with our Sox clubhouse, is the fact we already know there is a problem in our clubhouse. Several ex-players have mentioned this publicly. We also saw first hand on video in the clubhouse when it was announced TA made the all-star team. 

Btw, its not at all hard to see why Renteria was the only one to get this team playing together and hard. Just look at the two loser managers you are comparing him to. 

It was more when Jose Fernandez was kind of taking too many chances in his personal life and nobody tried to talk sense into him because he was The Franchise.