greg775 Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 How do you trade a guy like this? The guy can hit. Man I hate my White Sox now. Worst outlook for a team ever. Moronic to trade him. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 21 minutes ago, greg775 said: How do you trade a guy like this? The guy can hit. Man I hate my White Sox now. Worst outlook for a team ever. Moronic to trade him. We're rebuilding and tanking Greg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjp1684 Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, greg775 said: How do you trade a guy like this? The guy can hit. Man I hate my White Sox now. Worst outlook for a team ever. Moronic to trade him. I like Burger as part of the clubhouse, but I struggle to find a place he can play long-term on defense. He can hit home runs, but slugging 30-35 of those won’t be a net positive with an OBP under .300, a BA in the 2-teens, and striking out more than 1 time per 3 AB. He’ll be 28 next year and has a history of injuries. Edited August 6, 2023 by tjp1684 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 2 minutes ago, tjp1684 said: I like Burger as part of the clubhouse. I struggle to find a place he can play long-term on defense. He can hit home runs, but slugging 30-35 of those won’t be a net positive with an OBP under .300, a BA in the 2-teens, and you strike out more than 1 time per 3 AB. He’ll be 28 next year and has a lengthy history of injuries. By that argument, we only have one 2+ fWAR starting player in Robert, because it’s quite easy to find the flaws all across the roster. If they’re not right on any of these pitchers, the rebuild is pretty much dead before it even got restarted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjp1684 Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: By that argument, we only have one 2+ fWAR starting player in Robert, because it’s quite easy to find the flaws all across the roster. If they’re not right on any of these pitchers, the rebuild is pretty much dead before it even got restarted. I think a few of the prospects we got in return are decent and will play for us on the MLB roster soon, but I view the moves made to pare payroll. The hope is that a few of these guys could end up on the MLB roster soon. We weren’t dealing anyone that would return a can’t-miss prospect. Edited August 6, 2023 by tjp1684 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 1 minute ago, tjp1684 said: I think a few of the prospects we got in return are decent and will play for us on the MLB roster soon, but I view the moves made to pare payroll. The hope is that a few of these guys could end up on the MLB roster soon. We weren’t dealing anyone that would return a can’t-miss prospect. Well, we only got 2 can’t miss prospects in Cease/Giolito in hindsight because Moncada Jimenez Kopech and Lopez haven’t lived up to previous billing. So that doesn’t provide much hope if the success rate on “can’t miss” is only 33%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjp1684 Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Well, we only got 2 can’t miss prospects in Cease/Giolito in hindsight because Moncada Jimenez Kopech and Lopez haven’t lived up to previous billing. So that doesn’t provide much hope if the success rate on “can’t miss” is only 33%. I should have defined someone as “can’t miss” as consensus being they’ll be in the big leagues and not just a call-up for a cup of coffee. For my definition, I see the guys you mentioned as can’t-miss prospects because they all made it to and stuck on the MLB roster. I personally view their performance once they make it to be separate from “can’t-miss” prospect status. Ultimately, this was a huge payroll dump. It gives AA and AAA guys a chance to get MLB experience so we can see what we have going into 2024 because either these guys or veterans we bring in at cheap salaries are going to be needed to fill out the roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, tjp1684 said: I should have defined someone as “can’t miss” as consensus being they’ll be in the big leagues and not just a call-up for a cup of coffee. For my definition, I see the guys you mentioned as can’t-miss prospects because they all made it to and stuck on the MLB roster. I personally view their performance once they make it to be separate from “can’t-miss” prospect status. Ultimately, this was a huge payroll dump. It gives AA and AAA guys a chance to get MLB experience so we can see what we have going into 2024 because either these guys or veterans we bring in at cheap salaries are going to be needed to fill out the roster. Exactly this. I have very little confidence in Hahn being able to pull it off but this seems to be a plan. We had a choice to move cease and roberts doing a complete teardown or a retool. We choose to do a retool. Honestly I am surprised we got as much as we did back because none of these shortterm guys were having great years and were a big reason why our record is what it is. Edited August 6, 2023 by wrathofhahn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 30 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said: Exactly this. I have very little confidence in Hahn being able to pull it off but this seems to be a plan. We had a choice to move cease and roberts doing a complete teardown or a retool. We choose to do a retool. Honestly I am surprised we got as much as we did back because none of these shortterm guys were having great years and were a big reason why our record is what it is. Giolito was really solid until his last start prior to the trade but certainly not an All Star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 43 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said: Exactly this. I have very little confidence in Hahn being able to pull it off but this seems to be a plan. We had a choice to move cease and roberts doing a complete teardown or a retool. We choose to do a retool. Honestly I am surprised we got as much as we did back because none of these shortterm guys were having great years and were a big reason why our record is what it is. I’m glad they kept both, with the chance of Hahn being gone in October, and or with the chance of trading Cease this off-season or next July. I trust another person making a decision on Cease and the direction of the team more than Hahn. There was no rush to give him away, and there were reports they didn’t get a solid offer for Cease. Seemed like there were few buyers through the weekend, with little given up for Flaherty or Lorenzen, Mets ate a bulk of the money for Scherzer (not sure for Verlander). The Sox seemed to maximize value, especially for Lynn and Kelly, and I think most consider Hahn did a good job at the one area he is known for (selling off players). Robert should not be traded, period. He should be a franchise player, and will hopefully will be here when the Sox can contend in 2026 or 2027. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Giolito was really solid until his last start prior to the trade but certainly not an All Star. His FIP was 4.44 at the time which is strange to say considering our defense but he was infact a bit lucky. Same goes for Clevinger. Speaking of Clevinger he is really the one issue I had because he should have been moved. I get the timing wasnt perfect coming back from injury and he has a dark cloud over him but he's a solid number 3 on a playoff team I would be shocked if there was no offers. Heck chapman got moved and he is a reliever. Edited August 6, 2023 by wrathofhahn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: I’m glad they kept both, with the chance of Hahn being gone in October, and or with the chance of trading Cease this off-season or next July. I trust another person making a decision on Cease and the direction of the team more than Hahn. There was no rush to give him away, and there were reports they didn’t get a solid offer for Cease. Seemed like there were few buyers through the weekend, with little given up for Flaherty or Lorenzen, Mets ate a bulk of the money for Scherzer (not sure for Verlander). The Sox seemed to maximize value, especially for Lynn and Kelly, and I think most consider Hahn did a good job at the one area he is known for (selling off players). Robert should not be traded, period. He should be a franchise player, and will hopefully will be here when the Sox can contend in 2026 or 2027. 28 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: I’m glad they kept both, with the chance of Hahn being gone in October, and or with the chance of trading Cease this off-season or next July. I trust another person making a decision on Cease and the direction of the team more than Hahn. There was no rush to give him away, and there were reports they didn’t get a solid offer for Cease. Seemed like there were few buyers through the weekend, with little given up for Flaherty or Lorenzen, Mets ate a bulk of the money for Scherzer (not sure for Verlander). The Sox seemed to maximize value, especially for Lynn and Kelly, and I think most consider Hahn did a good job at the one area he is known for (selling off players). Robert should not be traded, period. He should be a franchise player, and will hopefully will be here when the Sox can contend in 2026 or 2027. If you are doing a complete teardown it would have made sense to move Robert who still has four years of control left because while I agree he is a franchise cornerstone type player you are going to be probably burning through at least three of those years just trying to get into contention maybe all four. But since we aren't by keeping Cease and pretty much the people with multi year deals moving him would have made no sense. Here is the thing we can always revaiuate things next year. I am encouraged by what we did this deadline now we need to see how they fill out the roster. The only thing I wish they did is they brought in guys like Urias or India as essentially flyer type options. Guys who would still have control and eliminate a position you needed to fill in the offseason should they be able to get themselves back on track. Edited August 6, 2023 by wrathofhahn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjp1684 Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 (edited) If we are not able to bring in FAs who can produce, it doesn’t matter who we would have traded away and received in return. It will probably take new ownership to do that though because our current ownership/front office has shown no serious efforts to do so. We may have made record offers for the Sox, but the key there is “for the Sox.” Perhaps we could get the personnel to compete in the Central, but we are a long way from competing beyond the Central with our approach. Edited August 6, 2023 by tjp1684 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBooneLoganEra Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 22 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said: His FIP was 4.44 at the time which is strange to say considering our defense but he was infact a bit lucky. Same goes for Clevinger. Speaking of Clevinger he is really the one issue I had because he should have been moved. I get the timing wasnt perfect coming back from injury and he has a dark cloud over him but he's a solid number 3 on a playoff team I would be shocked if there was no offers. Heck chapman got moved and he is a reliever. If they are truly going to try to "compete" next year Clevinger will be back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 3 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said: If they are truly going to try to "compete" next year Clevinger will be back. He will decline his option so it's not just our decision. I would be shocked if he doesn't get a multi year deal as a FA since the MLB is so starved for SP his stuff is still good and he has put up good numbers. So I don't really understand why he wasn't moved but maybe they are working on an extension or something behind the scenes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 8 hours ago, caulfield12 said: By that argument, we only have one 2+ fWAR starting player in Robert, because it’s quite easy to find the flaws all across the roster. If they’re not right on any of these pitchers, the rebuild is pretty much dead before it even got restarted. It's hard to call this a new rebuild, when they didn't even trade any major assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted August 8, 2023 Share Posted August 8, 2023 (edited) Since we are all about small sample sizes the Marlins are 1-5 since the trade and now out of the wildcard. Burger has a .653 OPS as a Marlin. Edited August 8, 2023 by wrathofhahn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 8, 2023 Share Posted August 8, 2023 13 hours ago, wrathofhahn said: Since we are all about small sample sizes the Marlins are 1-5 since the trade and now out of the wildcard. Burger has a .653 OPS as a Marlin. Still adjusting to artificial surface... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 On 8/3/2023 at 11:05 AM, caulfield12 said: Hahn's quite fortunate Liam doesn't seem like the suing/crying over spilt milk kind of guy or there might be another lawsuit filed to take away that one positive memory this year of his short-lived triumphant return to the mound. Jose has his minus WAR down to -0.9 but still plenty of time to make it worse. Passing on Abreu and Rodon not-so-dumb but let's brutalize this org some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 Is Passing on Abreu something this board is doing? Also, I think the grip with the Rodon situation is that we had a chance to come away with a comp pick, but inexplicably walked away from that opportunity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, pcq said: Jose has his minus WAR down to -0.9 but still plenty of time to make it worse. Passing on Abreu and Rodon not-so-dumb but let's brutalize this org some more. I don't think many people wanted to sign Rodon long-term, if any. They should have offered the QO, however, and I think most of the board wanted them to do that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 7 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said: I don't think many people wanted to sign Rodon long-term, if any. They should have offered the QO, however, and I think most of the board wanted them to do that. Naw, there was a significant fraction that said Hahn did things exactly right because Kimbrel would be easy to trade for huge value (they picked up his option) and they couldn’t afford Rodon if he accepted the QO, plus they had plenty of starting pitching. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Naw, there was a significant fraction that said Hahn did things exactly right because Kimbrel would be easy to trade for huge value (they picked up his option) and they couldn’t afford Rodon if he accepted the QO, plus they had plenty of starting pitching. I think they were just being cheap. Rodon made out like a bandit and who knows if he was worth it. Chris Sale used to rave about the guy's stuff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 3 minutes ago, pcq said: I think they were just being cheap. Rodon made out like a bandit and who knows if he was worth it. Chris Sale used to rave about the guy's stuff. Statistically, he was one of the top 2-3 pitchers in baseball last year for SF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, pcq said: I think they were just being cheap. Rodon made out like a bandit and who knows if he was worth it. Chris Sale used to rave about the guy's stuff. Of course they were. But Hahn had plenty of defenders in that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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