New White Sox Stadium?

[Dick Allen]

12 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

There are zero current domestic markets better than having the second team in Chicago. Oakland would be the best market available if they were open (the Giants will block any new team, they also blocked a viable A's stadium option).

A few teams moving to Nashville would make sense, perhaps Charlotte or Montreal, and that's pretty much it. The Las Vegas market is weak, they will not draw in the same way their first team (Golden Knights) or NFL Raiders draw, their TV revenue will be very low,

I still think there is a decent chance something in Oakland is worked out, and MLB uses the Nevada handout for an expansion team. What passed in the legislature last month (small Tropicana site) was a much smaller footprint than their original plan (Wild Wild West land with massive real estate development), though obviously that could also change over time.

JR almost moved the White Sox to Tampa. Think of how bad that would have been for him. From a baseball perspective, the would probably draw even less than the White Sox do. They would probably have been worse because of the division. Not to mention JR might have had to sell the Bulls because of the backlash, before they won 1 championship. Think of how much that would have cost him. The Reinsdorfs should have some sort of shrine to Jim Thompson. He made them hundreds of millions if not even a billion.

[WBWSF]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

JR almost moved the White Sox to Tampa. Think of how bad that would have been for him. From a baseball perspective, the would probably draw even less than the White Sox do. They would probably have been worse because of the division. Not to mention JR might have had to sell the Bulls because of the backlash, before they won 1 championship. Think of how much that would have cost him. The Reinsdorfs should have some sort of shrine to Jim Thompson. He made them hundreds of millions if not even a billion.

If JR would have moved the White Sox to St. Pete it would have been the worse move in the history of sports. As you mentioned, he would have sold the Bulls also. So instead of being part owner of the Chicago White Sox, part owner of the Bulls and part owner of the United Center he would have been part owner of the Florida/Tampa Bay White Sox. They've already had 4 owners in St. Pete. If they don't get a new stadium on the other side of the Bay they will move the team out of there. Nobody talks about this but Eddie Einhorn was the one who wanted to move the team. If it would have been up to him they would have moved the team to Florida. When the team stayed here Einhorn sold most of White Sox shares to JR and left the scene.

[Saufley]

On 8/4/2023 at 9:02 PM, WBWSF said:

There's an article on Twitter that states that  JR just spent $17 million dollars on land  near the United Center. Don't know if he wants a new baseball stadium there.

Hopefully land for his retirement home. Now we need to watch when the building of the home begins. Realistically, the man needs to turn over the reins to someone else! This franchise is very near to complete ruin.

[tray]

23 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

the yuppification of the West Loop is extending out and this is for speculation purposes or to turn it into a planned development. He bought another lot near here too last year. Probably more. Note that this is happening near the UC and not near Comiskey. There is very little real estate development value around the ballpark which suggests that there won't ever be a new Sox ballpark.

 

[tray]

""the yuppification of the West Loop is extending out and this is for speculation purposes or to turn it into a planned development. He bought another lot near here too last year. Probably more. Note that this is happening near the UC and not near Comiskey."

The Halsted corridor from UIC to 35th has a lot prime rehabs and upscale townhones.

[Lip Man 1]

1 minute ago, tray said:

""the yuppification of the West Loop is extending out and this is for speculation purposes or to turn it into a planned development. He bought another lot near here too last year. Probably more. Note that this is happening near the UC and not near Comiskey."

The Halsted corridor from UIC to 35th has a lot prime rehabs and upscale townhones.

Just FYI I never posted that, never even heard of it before. I remember reading it but didn't post it on my end.

[Jerry McNertney]

There are a number of posters here who are thinking of Chicago in the 1950's. Chicago is a dying city, not dead, but dying. If I had a couple of billion dollars, I wouldn't be investing in Chicago. Thinking out 20-30 years, the future is much brighter in cities like Nashville and Charlotte. The White Sox have AAA history in both. I wouldn't be surprised if the White Sox move to either of these two cities within the next 5-10 years. Chicago can no longer support two MLB teams. The Cubs have virtually owned ML baseball in Chicago for the last 35-40 years.

 

[The Mighty Mite]

32 minutes ago, Jerry McNertney said:

There are a number of posters here who are thinking of Chicago in the 1950's. Chicago is a dying city, not dead, but dying. If I had a couple of billion dollars, I wouldn't be investing in Chicago. Thinking out 20-30 years, the future is much brighter in cities like Nashville and Charlotte. The White Sox have AAA history in both. I wouldn't be surprised if the White Sox move to either of these two cities within the next 5-10 years. Chicago can no longer support two MLB teams. The Cubs have virtually owned ML baseball in Chicago for the last 35-40 years.

 

The city has probably seen its best days but the suburbs are still vibrant and not losing  population like the city. If I were a billionaire and bought the Sox, it’s somewhere in the suburbs where I would look to build a new stadium. That market hasn’t been tested and would probably be a gold mine for the Sox.

Edited August 7, 2023 by The Mighty Mite

[South Side Hit Men]

21 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

No owner would leave the 4 million population Seattle metro area for a tiny 1.5 million metro area like Oklahoma City.

NBA economics are not the same. 

Revenue streams are largely driven by national television contracts. Home schedules and stadium capacity are less than fourth net of what MLB teams seek (NBA stadiums host half the games and have on average half the capacity). Also player payrolls are very similar across the league, another reason Jerry wants his family to keep the Bulls and sell the Sox.

An NBA move to Oklahoma would work, whereas an MLB move to Oklahoma would not. Oakland’s threatened move to Vegas (or Jerry’s to Tampa) - will get less revenue long term in Vegas than if they accepted the reasonable deals offered in the Oakland area.

Many of these owners have a short term mentality, looking to cash out while there are still billionaires looking to join the club, and sad politicians looking to sell out their constituents.

36 minutes ago, Jerry McNertney said:

There are a number of posters here who are thinking of Chicago in the 1950's. Chicago is a dying city, not dead, but dying. If I had a couple of billion dollars, I wouldn't be investing in Chicago. Thinking out 20-30 years, the future is much brighter in cities like Nashville and Charlotte. The White Sox have AAA history in both. I wouldn't be surprised if the White Sox move to either of these two cities within the next 5-10 years. Chicago can no longer support two MLB teams. The Cubs have virtually owned ML baseball in Chicago for the last 35-40 years.

Jerry and Eddie are responsible for a decline in Sox fan interest due to several schemes they cooked up in the 1980s and 1990s. The Sox actually had a slight attendance advatage during the first eight decades, with the depression era and the late 1960s - early 1970s the two primary exceptions within that span.

Billionaires obviously see Chicago as a place worth investing based on this deal and the large hotel complex noted in the article.

Edited August 7, 2023 by South Side Hit Men

[waltwilliams]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

NBA economics are not the same. 

Revenue streams are largely driven by national television contracts. Home schedules and stadium capacity are less than fourth net of what MLB teams seek (NBA stadiums host half the games and have on average half the capacity). Also player payrolls are very similar across the league, another reason Jerry wants his family to keep the Bulls and sell the Sox.

An NBA move to Oklahoma would work, whereas an MLB move to Oklahoma would not. Oakland’s threatened move to Vegas (or Jerry’s to Tampa) - will get less revenue long term in Vegas than if they accepted the reasonable deals offered in the Oakland area.

Many of these owners have a short term mentality, looking to cash out while there are still billionaires looking to join the club, and sad politicians looking to sell out their constituents.

Jerry and Eddie are responsible for a decline in Sox fan interest due to several schemes they cooked up in the 1980s and 1990s. The Sox actually had a slight attendance advatage during the first eight decades, with the depression era and the late 1960s - early 1970s the two primary exceptions within that span.

Billionaires obviously see Chicago as a place worth investing based on this deal and the large hotel complex noted in the article.

Spot on with this ...

I'd also add that the White Sox are more than capable of drawing sizable fan interest in their present location, as long as they win fairly consistently. Not sure of the TV numbers, but they averaged over 2.5 million fans between 2005 and 2011 with the core group from the World Series team. That's even with three subpar teams from that period (2007, 2009 and 2011). 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, waltwilliams said:

Spot on with this ...

I'd also add that the White Sox are more than capable of drawing sizable fan interest in their present location, as long as they win fairly consistently. Not sure of the TV numbers, but they averaged over 2.5 million fans between 2005 and 2011 with the core group from the World Series team. That's even with three subpar teams from that period (2007, 2009 and 2011). 

Yes, Sox fans are numerous and will support a winning team and an owner committed to fielding a good team. SportsVision and the threatened move to Tampa started the slide. Jerry doubled down with the 1994 Jerry driven owner World Series cancellation during the Sox' best chance in decades, followed by the White Flag debacle.

All of this destroyed a large portion of fan goodwill, and all these incidents were self-inflected wounds. The team bounced back after the World Series, but has never recovered long term. New ownership willing to embrace of the community at large and repair the relationship with core Sox fans driven away by Jerry can restore parity in our area given enough time and effort.

• White Sox Attendance 1900 - 1979: Cubs 65,230,018 vs. White Sox 60,763,825. Difference of 4,466,193 (55,827 annual difference)
• White Sox Attendance 1980 - 2022: Cubs 105,015,114 vs. White Sox 77,832,373. Difference of 27,182,741 (647,208 annual difference)

White Sox Winning Decades: 1900s (+409,347) 1910s (+1,547,181); 1950s (+2,594,526); 1960s (+2,033,725)

Source: Baseball Reference, 2020 excluded in terms of annual difference calculation (42 year denominator).

 

[Lip Man 1]

36 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Yes, Sox fans are numerous and will support a winning team and an owner committed to fielding a good team. SportsVision and the threatened move to Tampa started the slide. Jerry doubled down with the 1994 Jerry driven owner World Series cancellation during the Sox' best chance in decades, followed by the White Flag debacle.

All of this destroyed a large portion of fan goodwill, and all these incidents were self-inflected wounds. The team bounced back after the World Series, but has never recovered long term. New ownership willing to embrace of the community at large and repair the relationship with core Sox fans driven away by Jerry can restore parity in our area given enough time and effort.

• White Sox Attendance 1900 - 1979: Cubs 65,230,018 vs. White Sox 60,763,825. Difference of 4,466,193 (55,827 annual difference)
• White Sox Attendance 1980 - 2022: Cubs 105,015,114 vs. White Sox 77,832,373. Difference of 27,182,741 (647,208 annual difference)

White Sox Winning Decades: 1900s (+409,347) 1910s (+1,547,181); 1950s (+2,594,526); 1960s (+2,033,725)

Source: Baseball Reference, 2020 excluded in terms of annual difference calculation (42 year denominator).

 

The White Flag Trade's impact on attendance was felt for years.  

Edited August 7, 2023 by Lip Man 1

[nrockway]

On 8/5/2023 at 6:07 PM, The Kids Can Play said:

I appreciate your opinion and I know several people here think the new owner will move. However the next owner would be crazy to leave the third largest market and go to some small market. It wouldn't be wise to take a chance with his new fanbase that might not support the Sox for example like in Tampa Bay. 

All the new owner needs to do is build a consistent winning playoff team that is exciting to watch, along with eventually a brand new state of the art stadium and the fans will support the Sox with great attendance. 

I don't think it's a matter of 'wanting' to leave but rather that the city will not kick in money for a new ballpark and that there's essentially zero real estate development potential in the area surrounding Comiskey (compare that to around Wrigley or what is growing and will soon absorb the UC) so it's less profitable to build in the south side of Chicago than it would be in a 'trendy' area of Bumfuck, Anywhere else (Charlotte maybe). Another poster made the point about Seattle leaving for OKC, the market size isn't the most important thing. San Francisco Bay Area is a similarly large market and couldn't support two teams. If it's strictly about market size, You could put a third or fourth team in New York and it would still have a larger share of the market than the White Sox would of Chicago. One might also expect that Dallas, Atlanta and Houston metro areas will surpass Chicago in size in the next 20 years, Dallas/Forth Worth/Arlington in particular seems better positioned to support two baseball teams than Chicago going forward.

However, it also doesn't seem to matter if you're in a 'big market' or not when it comes to making money in sports. Sport team owners are first and foremost land speculators and real estate developers and expect the public to subsidize all of their capital expenditures. There is no 'mixed-use ballpark district' coming to 35th and Shields and the taxpayer is not going to fork over money for a team that nobody cares about. I've already made essentially this same post on this forum but I feel like the writing is on the wall that when Jerry dies and his kid sells the team, the ballpark will become an issue and the Sox future in Chicago will be up in the air.