None of this would happen under Ozzie

[Quin]

11 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

I haven't seen anybody praise Ozzie's last year here or the terms of his departure. I have seen plenty ignore the good he did from 04 to 08 though. 

Ozzie was phenomenal from 2004-2006 and 2008, but let's drop him in today's game.

• He's probably not gonna get a workhorse starter with the Sox, let alone the 4 or 5 that he was used to.
• Now he needs a reliable defense for his coaching style to work.
  • Lmao with this team.
• A speedster up top. Right now he'd have Benintendi or TA. TA coached by Ozzie could actually be pretty fun.
• The bullpen...well. Without the workhorses, I don't see Ozzie having a good time with that.
• Everyone hated Sunday lineups back when Ozzie was successful - is that going to change now?
• Ozzie basically hated playing rookies. So expect the Elvises, Grandals, and Fraziers of the world to get playing time over Sosa, Lee, and Colas. He'd want his vet signings.
  • There literally might not be a better fit for Ozzie's style of coaching than Elvis.

 

[The Kids Can Play]

1 minute ago, Tnetennba said:

2008 was how long ago?  What relevance does that have now?  Tony La Russa won a World Series more recently than Ozzie, and look at the catastrophe he was.

Ozzie is just as out of touch with modern baseball as TLR is.

What in the hell has Ozzie done in the past 15 years that makes him qualified to manage in Major League Baseball today?

What has Ozzie even done to be even remotely relevant to modern baseball?

I'll hang up and listen...

Nothing!

It's time for the Sox to start hiring their future front office people and manager from the outside and quit promoting within, or feeling the manager has to be an ex-Sox player. We simply need to go recruit and hire from the winning clubs for their modern day knowledge and expertise. 

Take a page from the Baltimore Orioles for one example. They were struggling for many years. Then they go out and hire a successful GM Mike Elias from the outside, not from the Orioles org. He hires a manager Brandon Hyde, again with no Orioles' affiliation. How is that working out for the Orioles right now? Not only do they have a good major league winning roster, but the #1 farm system. 

[kitekrazy]

19 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I still think that AJ Pierzynski would make a damn good manager.

We are so conditioned to believing that.  I wonder if fans of other teams have that same disease.

Aj and Ozzie come from a different decade and may not have dealt with anything like today's player.  

I guess no one has bothered to call AJ to be involved in an instructional league or manage rookie league.  At least Ozzie paid his dues to get there.  

[Tony]

14 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

We’ve been Stockholm Syndrome’d into only considering a pool of six people already involved with the team as the only possibilities to run it. 

I don’t see Ozzie as a comparison point to Grifol, with pros and cons — I see Ozzie as another node in a long list of abject failures that have run this team over my lifetime.

Resist the temptation to crave past abuses. It’s all a s%*# show and we need to move forward. 

This. The logic people use in their argument for bringing Ozzie back makes zero sense. 

"The White Sox have been bad for so long, and it's the guys running the show for the last two decades that are the problem! You know what will fix it? Bringing someone back from 15 years ago that this current regime hired, and fired..that will solve it!" 

One manager has had success with this organization in this era, and it was incredibly short lived. An MLB team in 2023 can do much better than Ozzie Guillen as manager. 

Additionally, and maybe most importantly, the manager isn't going to change things. If Ozzie Guillen, or AJ Hinch, or Brian Snitker or Dave Roberts was managing the White Sox in 2023, their record isn't much different. A manager is not buying the Sox 10, 12, 15 more wins. The roster is flawed, the player development is flawed, the analytical foundation is flawed, the culture is flawed. That starts at the top. It all needs to be started over.  

[nrockway]

I think the appeal of Ozzie to me is that he's charismatic, speaks both languages and players would probably like him and take what he says seriously. The question for me is what does he actually have to say? ie what does he actually have to offer a baseball team in terms of managerial acumen besides jokes and good vibes? Good vibes would definitely be a step in the right direction though. 

[kitekrazy]

11 minutes ago, Quin said:

Ozzie was phenomenal from 2004-2006 and 2008, but let's drop him in today's game.

• He's probably not gonna get a workhorse starter with the Sox, let alone the 4 or 5 that he was used to.
• Now he needs a reliable defense for his coaching style to work.
  • Lmao with this team.
• A speedster up top. Right now he'd have Benintendi or TA. TA coached by Ozzie could actually be pretty fun.
• The bullpen...well. Without the workhorses, I don't see Ozzie having a good time with that.
• Everyone hated Sunday lineups back when Ozzie was successful - is that going to change now?
• Ozzie basically hated playing rookies. So expect the Elvises, Grandals, and Fraziers of the world to get playing time over Sosa, Lee, and Colas. He'd want his vet signings.
  • There literally might not be a better fit for Ozzie's style of coaching than Elvis.

 

  Mike Ditka figured that out.   Plus I think the more successful managers is where a philosophy is the same from the rookie league to the majors. 

 To make matters worse they hire people from habitually losing organizations, even the former Sox players.

 It amazes me though that players from the farm seem to fail in high leverage situations.

[kitekrazy]

On 8/8/2023 at 4:52 AM, Texsox said:

I'm surprised no one has hired him again. He practically invented quiet quitting. I think most folks learned a lot from the Tony rehiring. So bringing back Oz is the perfect WS front office response.

Great memories? Yes! Drinking issues? Yes! Lack of effort? Yes! Out of day to day operations for years? Yes! Hall of Fame? No. But maybe with a few more years. 

Please bring back Ozzie. If he could piss off a couple more groups of people with his political and social comments it would really complete this s%*# show. If we're going to lose, let's be entertaining. 

That seems to be a trend in baseball.  How many rehires are there these days. I guess organizations are into new blood. 

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

  Mike Ditka figured that out.  

Didn’t he figure it out the hard way?

[TheBooneLoganEra]

36 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

2008 was how long ago?  What relevance does that have now?  Tony La Russa won a World Series more recently than Ozzie, and look at the catastrophe he was.

Ozzie is just as out of touch with modern baseball as TLR is.

What in the hell has Ozzie done in the past 15 years that makes him qualified to manage in Major League Baseball today?

What has Ozzie even done to be even remotely relevant to modern baseball?

I'll hang up and listen...

I'd absolutely prefer a fresh start/take. I'm more alluding to the "revisionist history." Ozzie had a good and bad qualities and years. I don't think anybody is ignoring his bad traits when he was here but his voice, passion and knowledge are still relevant. Most of the fanbase I talk to would love to have him back. I can see the reasons for and against but I don't think anybody is pretending he was flawless. 

[Quin]

2 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

I'd absolutely prefer a fresh start/take. I'm more alluding to the "revisionist history." Ozzie had a good and bad qualities and years. I don't think anybody is ignoring his bad traits when he was here but his voice, passion and knowledge are still relevant. Most of the fanbase I talk to would love to have him back. I can see the reasons for and against but I don't think anybody is pretending he was flawless. 

My brother's idol is Ozzie Guillen, so I'll use him as a barometer here.

He also told me Coop deserved a lifetime pass for '05.

Most of the fanbase would probably be cool with trading Colson Montgomery for Carlos Correa or swapping Noah Schultz for Chris Sale. Fans love big familiar names.

[kitekrazy]

21 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Didn’t he figure it out the hard way?

Yep.  So did Mike Singletary. 

[kitekrazy]

16 minutes ago, Quin said:

My brother's idol is Ozzie Guillen, so I'll use him as a barometer here.

He also told me Coop deserved a lifetime pass for '05.

Most of the fanbase would probably be cool with trading Colson Montgomery for Carlos Correa or swapping Noah Schultz for Chris Sale. Fans love big familiar names.

Another candidate for the Sox IL.

[Tnetennba]

22 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

I'd absolutely prefer a fresh start/take. I'm more alluding to the "revisionist history." Ozzie had a good and bad qualities and years. I don't think anybody is ignoring his bad traits when he was here but his voice, passion and knowledge are still relevant. Most of the fanbase I talk to would love to have him back. I can see the reasons for and against but I don't think anybody is pretending he was flawless. 

The revisionist history here specifically is in the title of the thread. Which has been thoroughly debunked throughout. This thread isn't the first time posters have used revisionist history to pine for Ozzie's return. It is a fairly regular thing around these parts.

Sox fans on this board and in the wider public tend to remember the good years Ozzie had.  But there were more bad years than good.  And a train wreck of a divorce. Ozzie had maybe 4 good years as White Sox manager, all of which were 15+ years ago. We just lived through TLR, yet people want to bring Ozzie back, as if the Ozzie of now is the same one that pulled all of the right strings in 2005.  He isn't.  And his most recent managerial experience, more than a decade ago, also says that he isn't. But Ozzie's voice, passion, and antiquated baseball knowledge are somehow still relevant, when he hasn't been in a dugout since 2012?

I'm sorry, but the parts of the fanbase that pine for Ozzie's return need to look at the TLR experience we just lived through and connect the dots.

[Lip Man 1]

September 26, 2011 – He was considered the face of the franchise for eight seasons but on this night after a 4-3 win over Toronto, manager Ozzie Guillen announced he was leaving after owner Jerry Reinsdorf agreed to let him out of the final year of his contract. 

Guillen, who was the 1985 A.L. Rookie of the Year with the White Sox, won the World Series in 2005 and also got the club into the playoffs in 2008. He had five winning seasons in the eight years as manager and was named Manager of the Year for his work in 2005. 

In that magical season of 2005, “Ozzie Ball” resulted in the Sox getting off to the best start in their history and with a perfect blend of pitching, speed, power and the ability to execute the fundamentals the Sox were in first place from wire to wire. Then they blitzed through the post season putting together an 11-1 record that was the third best post season record in baseball history. 

Guillen’s passion and enthusiasm for the franchise was unparalleled but at times he was his own worst enemy.  

Over his final years in Chicago, he became increasingly thin-skinned and defensive when criticism was directed his way and he lashed out at Sox fans on more than one occasion.

Among his famous rants against the fans were one where he said that they could ‘‘Turn off their TVs and stop watching the game if they don’t like the [bleep]ing lineup’’ and another in May 2011 where he claimed Sox fans would not remember him, “As soon as you leave the ballpark, they don’t care about you. They don’t. The monuments, the statues…they pee on them when they get drunk.” On the afternoon of the day he left the team Guillen told reporters that he would not want to return to fulfill his 2012 contract unless he got an extension and more money.

Ozzie’s relationship with G.M. Kenny Williams also deteriorated over the final few years because the two men appeared to have different viewpoints over how the roster should be constructed and the style to which the Sox should play. The Jim Thome/DH controversy was an example of the different ideas.  Guillen’s family didn’t help the situation with social media comments derogatory to Williams. 

Many felt when Ozzie was hired in November 2003 that he was the right man for the right team at the right time and for a few years he was. Unfortunately, the manager with the longest tenure since Al Lopez let some personal foibles override a good situation and it was best for all that a parting of the ways took place.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Nothing!

It's time for the Sox to start hiring their future front office people and manager from the outside and quit promoting within, or feeling the manager has to be an ex-Sox player. We simply need to go recruit and hire from the winning clubs for their modern day knowledge and expertise. 

Take a page from the Baltimore Orioles for one example. They were struggling for many years. Then they go out and hire a successful GM Mike Elias from the outside, not from the Orioles org. He hires a manager Brandon Hyde, again with no Orioles' affiliation. How is that working out for the Orioles right now? Not only do they have a good major league winning roster, but the #1 farm system. 

They might have jinxed themselves with not allowing announcers to mention anything construed as negative though.

Talk about being sensitive to criticism and their franchise history the past two decades...some of it related to not making a big move this  deadline as well.

Benetti wouldn't last one pay period over there and he's oft criticized as Mr. Company Schill.

Edited August 9, 2023 by caulfield12

[The Kids Can Play]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

They might have jinxed themselves with not allowing announcers to mention anything construed as negative though.

Talk about being sensitive to criticism and their franchise history the past two decades...some of it related to not making a big move this  deadline as well.

Benetti wouldn't last one pay period over there and he's oft criticized as Mr. Company Schill.

That part of the Orioles reprimanding the announcer was horrible and they are taking a lot negative publicity nationally from it. I think that was more from their idiot owner than the front office. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by The Kids Can Play

[caulfield12]

On 8/10/2023 at 4:02 AM, The Kids Can Play said:

That part of the Orioles reprimanding the announcer was horrible and they are taking a lot negative publicity nationally from it. I think that was more from their idiot owner than the front office. 

No way Elias would ever be involved in something like that...

[Lip Man 1]

On 8/9/2023 at 2:02 PM, The Kids Can Play said:

That part of the Orioles reprimanding the announcer was horrible and they are taking a lot negative publicity nationally from it. I think that was more from their idiot owner than the front office. 

It came from the owner. 

[greg775]

On 8/9/2023 at 11:04 AM, kitekrazy said:

  Mike Ditka figured that out.   Plus I think the more successful managers is where a philosophy is the same from the rookie league to the majors. 

 To make matters worse they hire people from habitually losing organizations, even the former Sox players.

 It amazes me though that players from the farm seem to fail in high leverage situations.

The Bears and Sox had a shot at Blackhawks-like dynasties (3 in 6 years). Bulls dynasty was amazing and too much to ask for. Winning it in 85, the Bears should have repeated at least. Sox had EVERYTHING going to take over this city in 2005 after the title. Inexplicably they never cashed again. Sad. The Bears ineptitude is what the Sox are about to go thru I'm afraid. Blackhawks should be ashamed at how far they fell after the dynasty years were over. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by greg775

[knightni]

This is the same guy, who when things got tough, openly tried for the Marlins job - while actually still employed by the Sox.

He's not loyal or good with clubhouse issues. He himself was a cancer.

[caulfield12]

On 8/9/2023 at 11:55 PM, Tony said:

This. The logic people use in their argument for bringing Ozzie back makes zero sense. 

"The White Sox have been bad for so long, and it's the guys running the show for the last two decades that are the problem! You know what will fix it? Bringing someone back from 15 years ago that this current regime hired, and fired..that will solve it!" 

One manager has had success with this organization in this era, and it was incredibly short lived. An MLB team in 2023 can do much better than Ozzie Guillen as manager. 

Additionally, and maybe most importantly, the manager isn't going to change things. If Ozzie Guillen, or AJ Hinch, or Brian Snitker or Dave Roberts was managing the White Sox in 2023, their record isn't much different. A manager is not buying the Sox 10, 12, 15 more wins. The roster is flawed, the player development is flawed, the analytical foundation is flawed, the culture is flawed. That starts at the top. It all needs to be started over.  

They were at least competitive through 2010. 

But no...Ozzie Guillen isn't the answer.

 

He got triggered by KW drafting/paying family members but then went ballistic when they refused to do the same for his kids.

That was the height of being petty.

Two egos too big to coexist at that point.

Edited August 11, 2023 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

Serious question. Why would Ozzie want the job? Love if the franchise? Chance to prove himself? Money? 

[caulfield12]

32 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Serious question. Why would Ozzie want the job? Love if the franchise? Chance to prove himself? Money? 

Same question for TLR...of course he ended up causing more to question his HoF credentials in the end.

Especially because so much of his legacy was reliant on the likes of McGwire and Canseco.   

[Rocky]

2 hours ago, knightni said:

This is the same guy, who when things got tough, openly tried for the Marlins job - while actually still employed by the Sox.

He's not loyal or good with clubhouse issues. He himself was a cancer.

IS a cancer. 

[GreenSox]

Well, Ozzie managed players well for many years.  So this "culture problem", whatever that is, probably wouldn't have happened.
The WS was won with pitching, defense, and homers.  But once Ozzie got more say into personnel decisions, the team started to decline. 
Ozzie wanted to transform the team into slap hitters who could run and bunt, with defense secondary.  And he didn't really care about OBP from his slappers either. Pierre, Erstad, and, of course, Jerry Owens over Quentin.  He loved Wise - sub .300 OBP = leadoff hitter.
08?  Sox won the division that year despite Ozzie.
 

Edited August 11, 2023 by GreenSox