Dodgers have completely overhauled Lynn pitch mix

[bmags]

I think very few teams could have made Cease as successful as he is, and Katz is absolutely a part of that. Giolito as well.

He is probably too high variance a pitching coach, he does help guys with great stuff and poor command get enough swing and miss to be valuable. But staff wide it can be extremely ugly when the stuff isn't there and the command also is not there.

But mostly, I think it's because we had a pretty bad pitching staff. Lynn's vast world of cutters was eventually gonna tail as he aged. Clev has been fine, but still sucks. Kopech has been a mess. And when they can't go? We'll it's Jesse Scholtens.

I do think the groundball pitchers have not jived with Katz. Graveman/Bummer have been the case where it just hasn't worked at all. 

Hahn has not been able to integrate a starting pitcher he drafted since Rodon. My hunch - and I know this is a stretch - is there may be a talent issue with the white sox.

[bmags]

also this diekman obssession. Christ. He's a middle reliever. Nobody cares. They suck and our good and suck and our good and good luck timing it.

[Tnetennba]

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/2023.shtml

Click through the team standard pitching and tell me why Katz or anyone on the pitching side should be retained.

[ron883]

16 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/2023.shtml

Click through the team standard pitching and tell me why Katz or anyone on the pitching side should be retained.

FiRe GrEg WaLkEr!

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/2023.shtml

Click through the team standard pitching and tell me why Katz or anyone on the pitching side should be retained.

Their position players are worse, and the league only wanted one of them. The Sox were able to trade half their pitching staff.

I doubt there will be a substantial difference between their performance over the final two months and what they did the first four months.

Lynn may be the exception primarily  because he may actually give a f*** which should of been the case here but wasn’t unless someone bunted against him.

• Tanner Banks
• Touki Toussaint
• Jesse Scholtens
• Brian Shaw
• Declan Cronin
• Lane Ramsey
• Brent Honeywell Jr.
• Jose Ruiz
• Alex Colome
• Sammy Peralta
• Injured Liam and Crochet

Mike Maddux or Leo Mazzone wouldn’t be able to do much more with this staff before or after the deadline.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Their position players are worse, and the league only wanted one of them. The Sox were able to trade half their pitching staff.

This is much more a function of the trade deadline, you could see how it was working. The number of teams who could use a starting pitcher was, well, "all of them in the playoff hunt". Teams that were in a tolerable spot on starting pitching like the Astros...added starting pitching. Teams that maybe needed bullpen help, added bullpen help.

Teams that needed a catcher were - well maybe the Rangers needed one after their guy got hurt, and there were 3 options available. 

[The Kids Can Play]

3 hours ago, bmags said:

I think very few teams could have made Cease as successful as he is, and Katz is absolutely a part of that. Giolito as well.

He is probably too high variance a pitching coach, he does help guys with great stuff and poor command get enough swing and miss to be valuable. But staff wide it can be extremely ugly when the stuff isn't there and the command also is not there.

But mostly, I think it's because we had a pretty bad pitching staff. Lynn's vast world of cutters was eventually gonna tail as he aged. Clev has been fine, but still sucks. Kopech has been a mess. And when they can't go? We'll it's Jesse Scholtens.

I do think the groundball pitchers have not jived with Katz. Graveman/Bummer have been the case where it just hasn't worked at all. 

Hahn has not been able to integrate a starting pitcher he drafted since Rodon. My hunch - and I know this is a stretch - is there may be a talent issue with the white sox.

Yeah that makes a lot sense. No way in the world could other successful winning teams like the Dodgers, Braves or Rays to name a few, even dream of making Cease as good as Katz did. Seriously?

You're right Hahn has done a horrible job with talent on this roster, but some of them were good and I don't think Katz is the guru you make him out to be.

You are missing the point on Lynn and Diekman. Both of these pitchers were struggling badly with the Sox. That is not debatable. Then two separate teams have made big improvements for both pitchers. My question is if your guru Katz is such a genius, why couldn't he do it with these two pitchers while they were still on the Sox. 

 

[The Kids Can Play]

3 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/2023.shtml

Click through the team standard pitching and tell me why Katz or anyone on the pitching side should be retained.

They shouldn't and Katz should be gone.

[The Kids Can Play]

3 hours ago, bmags said:

also this diekman obssession. Christ. He's a middle reliever. Nobody cares. They suck and our good and suck and our good and good luck timing it.

You are completely missing the point on Diekman. It's not about him be valuable or just a middle reliever as you call him. The point is Katz and whatever pitching coaches the Sox have could not fix Diekman. The FO said he is done and washed up at 35 years old and DFA him. The Rays because they have a much more extensive support staff in their player development system in terms of research, coaches, analytics, etc, figured they would take a shot and maybe be able to tweak some things in Diekman. Whether you want to call Diekman a meaningless loser middle reliever, then go right ahead as that's your right. However he went from 7.96 ERA when he left the Sox to 3.96 in 8 weeks, by recording a 2.16 ERA with the Rays. I'm just curious why your guru Katz and his other coaches couldn't fix him?

[Boopa1219]

6 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Ethan Katz is absolutely one of them, this pitching staff has made very little positive progress this year and wasted a whole lot of resources. Plus, the pitching staff has been repeatedly put in positions to fail or get hurt (Crochet, Hendrix, Martin). The good news is he’s likely to be the fall guy to protect Hahn and Grifol this year.

Totally disagree with this.

The Sox pitching and pitching development at the ML level has been the line bright spot of the season. 

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

I listened to Dave Roberts' interview after they announced the trade. I've also watched both Lynn's starts. Roberts said that they would work with Lynn about using his full arsenal of pitches and throwing more strikes.

I'm sure it helps a lot knowing that your offense will actually score runs and play defense behind you. 

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

This is much more a function of the trade deadline, you could see how it was working. The number of teams who could use a starting pitcher was, well, "all of them in the playoff hunt". Teams that were in a tolerable spot on starting pitching like the Astros...added starting pitching. Teams that maybe needed bullpen help, added bullpen help.

Teams that needed a catcher were - well maybe the Rangers needed one after their guy got hurt, and there were 3 options available. 

Yes, but if they were absolute garbage, like most of the hitters and much of the remaining staff, nobody would want them.

We can revisit in October to see if there is any noticeable change in any of these pitchers the rest of the year beyond perhaps Lynn giving a f*** in LA. I hate the Dodgers, so I hope he pitches in October and gets bludgeoned like he did against Houston.

[Balta1701]

47 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Yes, but if they were absolute garbage, like most of the hitters and much of the remaining staff, nobody would want them.

We can revisit in October to see if there is any noticeable change in any of these pitchers the rest of the year beyond perhaps Lynn giving a f*** in LA. I hate the Dodgers, so I hope he pitches in October and gets bludgeoned like he did against Houston.

This thread is about Lance Lynn. He has the 2nd worst ERA of any qualified pitcher in baseball and has given up 6 more home runs than any other pitcher in baseball. His walk rate is the worst for him since 2018. His xERA is 4.88. He has lost 1.6 mph from his fastball over the last 2 years, his 4 seamer this year is the same as his 2 seamer in 2021. There is no reasonable standard where he doesn’t look like garbage. He was also owed what, $7 million for 2 months. There is no reasonable standard where Anderson looks vastly less fixable than Lynn. Teams just need pitching and will do with whatever they can find at the deadline.

[caulfield12]

21 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This thread is about Lance Lynn. He has the 2nd worst ERA of any qualified pitcher in baseball and has given up 6 more home runs than any other pitcher in baseball. His walk rate is the worst for him since 2018. His xERA is 4.88. He has lost 1.6 mph from his fastball over the last 2 years, his 4 seamer this year is the same as his 2 seamer in 2021. There is no reasonable standard where he doesn’t look like garbage. He was also owed what, $7 million for 2 months. There is no reasonable standard where Anderson looks vastly less fixable than Lynn. Teams just need pitching and will do with whatever they can find at the deadline.

That said...the opposing scouts were almost universally saying get him away with a reset from the White Sox and he'll be fine.

The jury on Anderson was split roughly 50/50 on a change of scenery actually helping him.

Edited August 10, 2023 by caulfield12

[South Side Hit Men]

20 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This thread is about Lance Lynn. He has the 2nd worst ERA of any qualified pitcher in baseball and has given up 6 more home runs than any other pitcher in baseball. His walk rate is the worst for him since 2018. His xERA is 4.88. He has lost 1.6 mph from his fastball over the last 2 years, his 4 seamer this year is the same as his 2 seamer in 2021. There is no reasonable standard where he doesn’t look like garbage. He was also owed what, $7 million for 2 months. There is no reasonable standard where Anderson looks vastly less fixable than Lynn. Teams just need pitching and will do with whatever they can find at the deadline.

My post addressed the Katz comment alone.

I don’t give a rats ass about Lynn beyond celebrating the fact he is gone. 

Lance Lynn pitched like garbage because he is 340 lbs of garbage, and he quiet quit since Houston obliterated his ass in the one meaningful game Lynn pitched. Katz is not to blame for it.

[Colome's Hat]

9 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Dylan Cease has made progress? Giolito didn’t go backward the last two years? Katz also was the 2022 pitching coach for the Giants?

Dylan Cease was the freaking Cy Young runner up last year.  He had a historic season and would have won had Verlander not had such the season he had.  This is crazy talk.

[Colome's Hat]

9 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

Is Cease injured this year?  Explain that regression. Gio was awful last year.  Explain that.  Lynn too. Kopech has gone from promising prospect to afterthought, whose stuff has virtually disintegrated. Where is Katz on that? Don't even get me started on the bullpen.

I'm not saying Katz is the sole reason for the struggles and regression, but I don't think he is some pitching savant either.  To this point he is very replaceable.

Cease is regressing because there is a scouting report on him and he has to adjust.  Gio was bad last year but he also had Covid and changed the way he approached the off season.  Are we just going to ignore 2021?  Or Cease's season in 2022?  

[wegner]

2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

My post addressed the Katz comment alone.

I don’t give a rats ass about Lynn beyond celebrating the fact he is gone. 

Lance Lynn pitched like garbage because he is 340 lbs of garbage, and he quiet quit since Houston obliterated his ass in the one meaningful game Lynn pitched. Katz is not to blame for it.

Lance Lynn was part of the problem. If he has something to say about the White Sox, I honestly don't want to hear it.

[Tnetennba]

21 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

Cease is regressing because there is a scouting report on him and he has to adjust.  Gio was bad last year but he also had Covid and changed the way he approached the off season.  Are we just going to ignore 2021?  Or Cease's season in 2022?  

Sounds like something a coaching staff *should* be able to help with, for as cerebral as Cease supposedly is.

There is zero reason to keep Katz around if Pedro and staff are gone.  He's nothing special and has had ample opportunity to show he had more to his methodology than increasing spin rate through sticky stuff, yet here we are.  Cherry pick all you'd like, but in the year 2023 the Sox as a pitching staff rank in the bottom 10 in all of baseball in Team ERA, ERA+, BB, HR, ER, RA, HBP, FIP, WHIP, HR/9, & BB/9.  Yes there is a lack of talent, but you can't look at those ranks and think coaching isn't at all a problem with this pithing staff, especially with the names and dollars spent.

[Balta1701]

37 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

Cease is regressing because there is a scouting report on him and he has to adjust.  Gio was bad last year but he also had Covid and changed the way he approached the off season.  Are we just going to ignore 2021?  Or Cease's season in 2022?  

If any players have good seasons you must discount everything else. Makes sense to me, extend everyone! Robert is having a great year, the offense therefore must be fine overall. Be proud of where things are right now.

[Texsox]

15 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

This is much more a function of the trade deadline, you could see how it was working. The number of teams who could use a starting pitcher was, well, "all of them in the playoff hunt". Teams that were in a tolerable spot on starting pitching like the Astros...added starting pitching. Teams that maybe needed bullpen help, added bullpen help.

Teams that needed a catcher were - well maybe the Rangers needed one after their guy got hurt, and there were 3 options available. 

Exactly.

We have the absolute worse coaching, managing, and front office staff. So maybe Katz only looks good in comparison. Folks want to believe there is something of value in the organization. There just isn't. 

[bmags]

14 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

You are completely missing the point on Diekman. It's not about him be valuable or just a middle reliever as you call him. The point is Katz and whatever pitching coaches the Sox have could not fix Diekman. The FO said he is done and washed up at 35 years old and DFA him. The Rays because they have a much more extensive support staff in their player development system in terms of research, coaches, analytics, etc, figured they would take a shot and maybe be able to tweak some things in Diekman. Whether you want to call Diekman a meaningless loser middle reliever, then go right ahead as that's your right. However he went from 7.96 ERA when he left the Sox to 3.96 in 8 weeks, by recording a 2.16 ERA with the Rays. I'm just curious why your guru Katz and his other coaches couldn't fix him?

Then why was he awful on the Red Sox too? With Bloom from the rays.

I implore people on this board to have some awareness of teams other than the Sox, and not just as argumentative devices.

Dylan Cease scouting reports were heavily noted that he’s likely to be a bullpen pitcher with his lack of control. He was a cy young finisher last year.

Touki Touissant was run out by your beloved Braves and Guardians. Yet has given us more bWAR in two months than any of his previous years.

Gregory Santos was awful under the giants pitching factory. Surely he’d be a huge failure for the Sox! They are stupid idiots! Oh god, he’s better. It’s almost like if you isolate the wildly volatile careers of pitchers they figure things out from small tweaks.

[Kyyle23]

I don’t think the Dodgers have unlocked some magic within Lynn, he has pitched against Oakland and San Diego who are a 49 and 15 games under .500.  Lynn had some really good games this season while with the Sox with high strikeout numbers, but he still had blowups.  Let’s see how improved Lance is when he starts facing some of the better teams

[Stinky Stanky]

44 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Exactly.

We have the absolute worse coaching, managing, and front office staff. So maybe Katz only looks good in comparison. Folks want to believe there is something of value in the organization. There just isn't. 

That's right to the point.  A mediocre coach looks good in comparison to everyone else.  Good thread too,  with a lot of facts to support  the posts.  

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."

[Bob Sacamano]

6 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

I don’t think the Dodgers have unlocked some magic within Lynn, he has pitched against Oakland and San Diego who are a 49 and 15 games under .500.  Lynn had some really good games this season while with the Sox with high strikeout numbers, but he still had blowups.  Let’s see how improved Lance is when he starts facing some of the better teams

It always seemed like his blowups were in the first inning, or at least early in the game and then settled down.