You be the Player

[Texsox]

Would you trust the Sox organization with your development and career? 

I can't imagine being a young guy with a dream of playing in the majors and winding up in the Sox organization. On one hand you probably aren't being blocked by an All Star, future HoF, level player. On the other hand the organization hasn't developed anyone in a long time. 

Do you listen to them? Hire a private coach? Trust? 

And how can you be a coach in this environment? You have to realize any veteran is going to be rightfully skeptical about any changes you suggest. 

[The Mighty Mite]

3 hours ago, Texsox said:

Would you trust the Sox organization with your development and career? 

I can't imagine being a young guy with a dream of playing in the majors and winding up in the Sox organization. On one hand you probably aren't being blocked by an All Star, future HoF, level player. On the other hand the organization hasn't developed anyone in a long time. 

Do you listen to them? Hire a private coach? Trust? 

And how can you be a coach in this environment? You have to realize any veteran is going to be rightfully skeptical about any changes you suggest. 

Hard to answer, if the Sox draft you, what are your alternatives. 
It’s going to be interesting to see how Colson Montgomery progresses, hopefully the buffoons who manage and coach in the Sox minor league system don’t mess him up.

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by The Mighty Mite

[nrockway]

I think if players are blaming organizations ahead of themselves for not turning them into good baseball players, they probably weren't going to be good anywhere. are Moncada and Kopech all-stars if they play for Boston? Kinda doubt it. 

[The Grinder]

You remember Eric Lindros in the early 90's? The next Gretzky, he told the Quebec Nordiques he woudnt sign w them under any circumstances as he wanted a better team and market

They drafted him anyway and the Nords couldnt sign him and ended tradiing him to Philly for a boatload of players

Will this same situation play out here??

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, nrockway said:

I think if players are blaming organizations ahead of themselves for not turning them into good baseball players, they probably weren't going to be good anywhere. are Moncada and Kopech all-stars if they play for Boston? Kinda doubt it. 

The good organizations  have a lot of things at the disposal from the right people to the right machines (computers , cameras, biometrics . Think of it like this. Have you ever watched special features from a movie that uses a lot of CGI where they attach  things to your body  to get computer images of your exact movements from head to toe ? . The right people can analyze your mechanics a lot better using that stuff than their eyeballs especially if they have some type of CGI template for the ideal pitching mechanics.

Same thing for swings and swing paths or ways to speed up your bat. I wish I could've been a fly on the wall to see exactly what the Dodgers did for Outman. Most interviews only talk about it in general terms. I'd love to hear about it step by step, like a daily journal from him and the people involved and detailed looks at the computers , programs and data analysis from breaking down his swing then rebuilding it.

[South Side Hit Men]

MLB players face enormous stress, between the highly competitive industry and the fact their careers are condensed under years, not the 3-4 decades most humans work.

For nearly a century of Jerry, very few quality free agents select his MLB / NBA teams. It’s nearly always a player with no other options.

I suspect the talent disparity between the Sox and most other teams would grow further if there was no domestic draft, and if players had a shorter window to free agency.

[nrockway]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

The good organizations  have a lot of things at the disposal from the right people to the right machines (computers , cameras, biometrics . Think of it like this. Have you ever watched special features from a movie that uses a lot of CGI where they attach  things to your body  to get computer images of your exact movements from head to toe ? . The right people can analyze your mechanics a lot better using that stuff than their eyeballs especially if they have some type of CGI template for the ideal pitching mechanics.

Same thing for swings and swing paths or ways to speed up your bat. I wish I could've been a fly on the wall to see exactly what the Dodgers did for Outman. Most interviews only talk about it in general terms. I'd love to hear about it step by step, like a daily journal from him and the people involved and detailed looks at the computers , programs and data analysis from breaking down his swing then rebuilding it.

Oh I get it and I agree as a fan. I just feel like if a player thinks this way, he's probably a loser who wasn't going to succeed anyway; like it's everyone else's fault except their own. The Bauer mentality -- and yet he still found a way to be a good player while ignoring every coach along the way. I do very much agree that organizations can steer things in the right direction for the reasons you mention, Outman is a good example -- but who's to say whatever LAD's coaching staff is doing is the cause for it? A counterpoint might be that whatever they were telling Bellinger was wrong and unhelpful. 

I do wonder about the success rate of Sox prospects relative to other organizations or how much of that 'failure' is simply a result of drafting the wrong guys, ie before the development aspect even comes into the equation.  Maybe there's a point to be made about turning fringe players into every day ones but the last two first round picks (pre-Gonzalez) seem to be progressing faster than analysts anticipated. Vaughn will probably be OK and 'meet his potential' but might've been the wrong pick. In terms of current players, you could count TA (no longer perhaps), Robert and Cease as examples of successful development while Vaughn, Eloy and others are on the cusp. Eloy is actually really good when he plays and the jury is out on Vaughn but I suspect he'll start hitting for power eventually.

 

I would be curious if someone has done this comparison between teams' prospects over the last 20 or so years because I have no clue how the Sox actually stack up to every other organization aside from the standard DRays or Dodgers comparison...which I bet every fanbase does.  It just doesn't seem to me like the Sox are as bad at 'development' as a lot of people say. The problems seem to begin when they join the major league roster. That seems like a greater organizational problem, what has been discussed ad nauseum in the Middleton thread, than teaching guys how to swing or throw. I've been watching a lot of Birmingham games lately and those guys can all take a pitch and not swing at sliders a foot out of the zone -- why doesn't it translate to the major league roster? 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, nrockway said:

Oh I get it and I agree as a fan. I just feel like if a player thinks this way, he's probably a loser who wasn't going to succeed anyway; like it's everyone else's fault except their own. The Bauer mentality -- and yet he still found a way to be a good player while ignoring every coach along the way. I do very much agree that organizations can steer things in the right direction for the reasons you mention, Outman is a good example -- but who's to say whatever LAD's coaching staff is doing is the cause for it? A counterpoint might be that whatever they were telling Bellinger was wrong and unhelpful. 

I do wonder about the success rate of Sox prospects relative to other organizations or how much of that 'failure' is simply a result of drafting the wrong guys, ie before the development aspect even comes into the equation.  Maybe there's a point to be made about turning fringe players into every day ones but the last two first round picks (pre-Gonzalez) seem to be progressing faster than analysts anticipated. Vaughn will probably be OK and 'meet his potential' but might've been the wrong pick. In terms of current players, you could count TA (no longer perhaps), Robert and Cease as examples of successful development while Vaughn, Eloy and others are on the cusp. Eloy is actually really good when he plays and the jury is out on Vaughn but I suspect he'll start hitting for power eventually.

 

I would be curious if someone has done this comparison between teams' prospects over the last 20 or so years because I have no clue how the Sox actually stack up to every other organization aside from the standard DRays or Dodgers comparison...which I bet every fanbase does.  It just doesn't seem to me like the Sox are as bad at 'development' as a lot of people say. The problems seem to begin when they join the major league roster. That seems like a greater organizational problem, what has been discussed ad nauseum in the Middleton thread, than teaching guys how to swing or throw. I've been watching a lot of Birmingham games lately and those guys can all take a pitch and not swing at sliders a foot out of the zone -- why doesn't it translate to the major league roster? 

We didn't bring in one single player from outside the organization in 2017 18 19 that became even an Alejandro de Aza level contributor in 2020-21 with all that free or open playing time to allocate.

Unless you want to argue McCann at catcher...or Narvaez.

Which we more than undid with the last two seasons of Grandal. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, nrockway said:

Oh I get it and I agree as a fan. I just feel like if a player thinks this way, he's probably a loser who wasn't going to succeed anyway; like it's everyone else's fault except their own. The Bauer mentality -- and yet he still found a way to be a good player while ignoring every coach along the way. I do very much agree that organizations can steer things in the right direction for the reasons you mention, Outman is a good example -- but who's to say whatever LAD's coaching staff is doing is the cause for it? A counterpoint might be that whatever they were telling Bellinger was wrong and unhelpful. 

I do wonder about the success rate of Sox prospects relative to other organizations or how much of that 'failure' is simply a result of drafting the wrong guys, ie before the development aspect even comes into the equation.  Maybe there's a point to be made about turning fringe players into every day ones but the last two first round picks (pre-Gonzalez) seem to be progressing faster than analysts anticipated. Vaughn will probably be OK and 'meet his potential' but might've been the wrong pick. In terms of current players, you could count TA (no longer perhaps), Robert and Cease as examples of successful development while Vaughn, Eloy and others are on the cusp. Eloy is actually really good when he plays and the jury is out on Vaughn but I suspect he'll start hitting for power eventually.

 

I would be curious if someone has done this comparison between teams' prospects over the last 20 or so years because I have no clue how the Sox actually stack up to every other organization aside from the standard DRays or Dodgers comparison...which I bet every fanbase does.  It just doesn't seem to me like the Sox are as bad at 'development' as a lot of people say. The problems seem to begin when they join the major league roster. That seems like a greater organizational problem, what has been discussed ad nauseum in the Middleton thread, than teaching guys how to swing or throw. I've been watching a lot of Birmingham games lately and those guys can all take a pitch and not swing at sliders a foot out of the zone -- why doesn't it translate to the major league roster? 

I specificly mentioned Outman because in the off season I did a lot of research on him so I know for a fact they rebuilt his swing. I don't know if you were posting back then but I started posting a lot about not so young  OF's to target , guys who were around 24-27 who all appeared to be MLB ready. Outman was my favorite and I became the Outman  guru and as usual when you hype someone as much as i did you get meatballers who , no matter what you say, think you only like him because he had a very good debut with the Dodgers last year.

I went on  and on about his speed, defense, power and how once they rebuilt his swing  that he now had a large enough sample size  in the minors to say it was successful. I thought he could quickly be valuable on the bases, offensively and defensively despite a high K rate.  I said he was  better in my eyes than the Dodger's ranked prospects Michael Busch and Miguel Vargas who weren't as fast nor had good reputations for defense. SO yea I took a lot of flack   but I also had a lot of posters whom said you convinced me.

Now he's approaching 3 fWAR on the season  and has about a .500 OBP since the All Star break, tops in MLB.

Edited August 12, 2023 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Saufley]

5 hours ago, Texsox said:

Would you trust the Sox organization with your development and career? 

I can't imagine being a young guy with a dream of playing in the majors and winding up in the Sox organization. On one hand you probably aren't being blocked by an All Star, future HoF, level player. On the other hand the organization hasn't developed anyone in a long time. 

Do you listen to them? Hire a private coach? Trust? 

And how can you be a coach in this environment? You have to realize any veteran is going to be rightfully skeptical about any changes you suggest. 

The #1 pick by the Sox this last draft did not look too happy when his name was called. I didn't see a lot of joy and jumping around in that room. He knew what he was in for. Hell, who would be happy, even with the money.

[caulfield12]

38 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I specificly mentioned Outman because in the off season I did a lot of research on him so I know for a fact they rebuilt his swing. I don't know if you were posting back then but I started posting a lot about not so young  OF's to target , guys who were around 24-27 who all appeared to be MLB ready. Outman was my favorite and I became the Outman  guru and as usual when you hype someone as much as i did you get meatballers who , no matter what you say, think you only like him because he had a very good debut with the Dodgers last year.

I went on  and on about his speed, defense, power and how once they rebuilt his swing  that he now had a large enough sample size  in the minors to say it was successful. I thought he could quickly be valuable on the bases, offensively and defensively despite a high K rate.  I said he was  better in my eyes than the Dodger's ranked prospects Michael Busch and Miguel Vargas who weren't as fast nor had good reputations for defense. SO yea I took a lot of flack   but I also had a lot of posters whom said you convinced me.

Now he's approaching 3 fWAR on the season  and has about a .500 OBP since the All Star break, tops in MLB.

The biggest question is what they did to pull him out of that roughly six or eight weeks prolonged slump after he got out to such a hot start...sustained success.

That was always going to be the question with Kelenic as well.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

The biggest question is what they did to pull him out of that roughly six or eight weeks prolonged slump after he got out to such a hot start...sustained success.

That was always going to be the question with Kelenic as well.

 

Maybe they did something, maybe they didn't besides your basic, but necessary, we believe in you , just keep playing great defense, taking walks and running the bases well. You're a important part of this team. It's still his 1st year and he probably had to adjust to the adjustments. Fans just aren't patient enough to give guys a chance.  Plenty still think Burger is who we saw batting under .200 and just hitting bombs. Outman didn't miss 3 years like Burger did. He got a chance to hone his new swing. But it was always very helpful to him that he had a good eye .

Sox had better start taking OBP in player development very seriously. It's the one thing that can spell doom for otherwise very talented hitters. MLB pitchers are nasty and they are smart and have smart catchers. Your weaknesses will be exploited continuously.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Maybe they did something, maybe they didn't besides your basic, but necessary, we believe in you , just keep playing great defense, taking walks and running the bases well. You're a important part of this team. It's still his 1st year and he probably had to adjust to the adjustments. Fans just aren't patient enough to give guys a chance.  Plenty still think Burger is who we saw batting under .200 and just hitting bombs. Outman didn't miss 3 years like Burger did. He got a chance to hone his new swing. But it was always very helpful to him that he had a good eye .

Sox had better start taking OBP in player development very seriously. It's the one thing that can spell doom for otherwise very talented hitters. MLB pitchers are nasty and they are smart and have smart catchers. Your weaknesses will be exploited continuously.

They did have that one draft where they focused on more high OBP seemingly refined collegiate hitters.

Then promptly abandoned it.

Collins and Jameson Fisher were two of the names that went along with Alex Call and Remillard in 2016.

 

Madrigal and Steele Walker in 2018.

Edited August 13, 2023 by caulfield12

[oldsox]

13 hours ago, Saufley said:

The #1 pick by the Sox this last draft did not look too happy when his name was called. I didn't see a lot of joy and jumping around in that room. He knew what he was in for. Hell, who would be happy, even with the money.

Wow.  I didn't need to hear that.  I wasn't too happy with the pick either.