A Sobering Thought...

[FloydBannister1983]

9 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Let's take the Sox front office at face value when they say they are going to be competitive next year. (That doesn't even mean by the way that they'll even have a winning record...)

OK...to be "competitive" this is what they appear to need:

Catcher

2nd base

Right Field

at least 2 starting pitchers

3 bullpen arms

A closer

Maybe a new shortstop

Now how anybody thinks they can do this with a reduced payroll and a mediocre/poor farm system is beyond my limited intelligence.

But that's what they are going to try to continue to sell the fan base...that and "hoping" things work out.

Odds are really, really, really small of that happening. 

Also based on past history the CF won’t be close to as healthy as he’s been this year.

[LittleHurtCG]

21 minutes ago, Quin said:

2007, 2009, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016 were all horrendous. The bolded in particular were particularly unwatchable laughingstocks.

.At least 2017, 2018 and 2019 had young guys to follow Then 2020 and 2021 were fun as s%*# until Ricky and LaRussa got embarrassed in the playoffs.

And 2005 wasn't rebuilding on the fly. They started in 2004 with the Freddy and Contreras trades, building off of a strong 2000 farm system. 

The tank years were terrible. Watching guys like Jon Jay, Yonder Alonso, Wellington Castillo, Daniel Palka, Nicky Delmonico, Ryan Cordell, Charlie Tilson. I could go on and on with the list, but I think I'll stop there. 

2020 was weird. The Sox only played within their own division and got exposed by a bad Oakland team big time. 

The first tank job was an epic failure. Why in the world would you want to sit through that again? 

[baseball_gal_aly]

4 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

The first tank job was an epic failure. Why in the world would you want to sit through that again? 

Because it's better than the alternative. There's a higher chance of winning baseball going through another tank job than trusting this FO to piecemeal a team together. The tank job has maybe a 5% chance of success with this FO but the piecemeal approach is much less than 1%. Last I looked 5% is greater than .01%. 

Quite frankly I'd rather go through another tank job than waste seasons hoping that the majority of the roster hits their 80th+ percentile projections simultaneously. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by baseballgalaly

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, WBWSF said:

The team also has a massive hole at third base. Moncada simply can't hit. Last night  he came up to bat 3 times with men on base and did nothing, I wasn't surprised.  The only reason why he's on the team is because of his big contract. If he  didn't have the big money contract he would be gone. The Cubs released Jason  Heywood this past off season. They ate his big contract. The White Sox should have done the same  thing with Moncada. We're stuck with Moncada for another year. Hahn traded Tatis Jr, Madrigal and Burger. If they hadn't been traded this team would look alot better. Its bad enough they were traded  but they received nothing in return for them. I remember during the 2017 season Hahn traded David Robertson to the Yankees for absolutely nothing. Some people said that he saved the team money by trading him. The problem with that arguement is look at the millions of dollars Hahn has spent and wasted on players who never produced. Its almost as if  Hahn is destroying the team intentionally.

I didn't list 3rd base because no one is taking Moncada off the Sox hands. They are stuck with him.

[baseball_gal_aly]

1 minute ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I didn't list 3rd base because no one is taking Moncada off the Sox hands. They are stuck with him.

One more season. 

[Snopek]

27 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

The first option also resulted in years of tanking and completely unwatchable baseball. 2006 through 2016 wasn't much fun either but at least there was a few seasons where the Sox made the playoffs and/or were still playing meaningful baseball in September. 2005 was also a sort of rebuild on the fly season and the Sox were longshots to win the World Series that year. 

Tanking will never ever work as long as JR is the owner and RH is the GM. Catching lightining in a bottle is the only way for them to have any chance for now. 

 

21 minutes ago, Quin said:

2007, 2009, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016 were all horrendous. The bolded in particular were particularly unwatchable laughingstocks.

At least 2017, 2018 and 2019 had young guys to follow. Then 2020 and 2021 were fun as s%*# until Ricky and LaRussa got embarrassed in the playoffs.

And 2005 wasn't rebuilding on the fly. They started in 2004 with the Freddy and Contreras trades, building off of a strong 2000 farm system. 

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would easily take the hope and excitement of a 2019 season where they didn't play meaningful baseball in September standings-wise over some absolutely mediocre team that finishes right around .500 and is hoping Mark Kotsay and Omar Vizquel can propel them to being fringe contenders.

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

Statistically and emotionally, we are not a sober fanbase.

But to answer the question:

1. They're fucked
2. They should have sold off Cease, TA, and (I guess?) Bummer
3. But here we go!

Catcher

• Free Agents you could try and sign as a bridge to Quero: Gary Sánchez, Yan Gomes, Victor Caratini, Martin Maldonado
• Internal: The second Seby is healthy, Grandal needs to be DFA'd so Korey Lee can get some big league burn to see if he can be a big league backup. But Pedro's whole "won't sacrifice wins" schtick is fucking stupid.

Second Base

• Literally just play Sosa the end of this season. Stop playing Andrus. This is catastrophically stupid. See what you've got in a young player that always performs after he adjusts to each level.
• Otherwise I guess there's Adam Frazier.

Right Field

• This is Colas. Young players don't develop if you jettison them.

Starting Pitchers

• With his current Angels performance, Giolito might be the best bet. Then take a shot at Montgomery, Lorenzen, Wacha, Nola, etc. - the B-tier of pitchers.

Closer

• Pretty clear this is Santos. Last night was his worst night - you can let a rookie closer build stamina and confidence heading into year two.

Bullpen arms

• Please don't spend heavy. Please don't spend heavy. I'm willing to give Jordan Leasure and his 14.4K/9 more than 5 innings at a new level to prove he can get in there. Otherwise, see what you can put together.

Shortstop

• This is clearly TA and they're hoping for a bounceback to bridge to Montgomery.

They should have punted 2024 and waited till 2025 to see if Montgomery, Ramos, Sosa, Rodriguez and the new acquisitions could be ready, but nooooooo, "compete in 2024."

There aren't enough likes available for this post. ? ?  ?  ? ?  

[Quin]

5 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

The tank years were terrible. Watching guys like Jon Jay, Yonder Alonso, Wellington Castillo, Daniel Palka, Nicky Delmonico, Ryan Cordell, Charlie Tilson. I could go on and on with the list, but I think I'll stop there. 

2020 was weird. The Sox only played within their own division and got exposed by a bad Oakland team big time. 

The first tank job was an epic failure. Why in the world would you want to sit through that again? 

Cause trading Colson Montgomery for someone like Zach Eflin sounds like a quick way to repeat another decade of Tatis posts.

Or Quero for Jordan Romano.

Would you have rathered the Sox have kept Tatis, Semien, Bassit, Escobar, Narvaez, Thompson, Montas, and Reed (forgot him) or slog through the end of the retool era? Cause those guys could have surrounded the Sale, Q, Eaton, Abreu core (minus Tatis, he'd come later, with TA).

[Snopek]

12 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

The tank years were terrible. Watching guys like Jon Jay, Yonder Alonso, Wellington Castillo, Daniel Palka, Nicky Delmonico, Ryan Cordell, Charlie Tilson. I could go on and on with the list, but I think I'll stop there. 

2020 was weird. The Sox only played within their own division and got exposed by a bad Oakland team big time. 

The first tank job was an epic failure. Why in the world would you want to sit through that again? 

Guys like Jon Jay, Yonder Alonso and Wellington Castillo are exactly the cheap veteran players you alluded to in a previous post that they would also bring in if they were trying to contend. Well, we know why Jay and Alonso were brought in, but the cheap veteran list is just as ugly the younger guys they were throwing out there in the tank years.

[South Side Hit Men]

Since 2005-2006, the last fun White Sox period for me was 2019-2020, and the Children of the Corn game with Tim & Acting Manager Miguel Cairo.

This mostly depressing season will be worth it if there is finally a new FO, and/or if God makes a change in ownership.

If not, then I am joining the penguin.

 

[Snopek]

I think there's this misconception from the anti tanking crowd that they think the rest of us actively enjoy tanking. No. It's just the less shitty of two shitty options.

[SexiAlexei]

A sobering thought for me is just how awful this team has been.

I put up with the garbage "rebuilding" years, just to have a team that never truly competed, and now they're rebuilding yet again.

What's the point of sitting through the garbage "rebuilding" years again with the same management, why should anyone assume they can actually field a competitive team.  Sure it's fun to watch some young guys develop, but it gets tiring rooting for development just for the team to fail.

I feel the same way with the Bulls.  We had the "baby bulls" that could never get there, then the rebuild into the Derrick Rose bulls, that couldn't get there, into this new team that can't get there.

At some point it's just not fun watching rebuild after rebuild with no trust that the team will actually compete.

This year has really sucked a lot of joy out of the whitesox for me.

[almagest]

The only way they're remotely competitive on offense is if Moncada, Eloy, TA and Vaughn all stay healthy and all end up producing like we hoped they could. You get 15-20 WAR out of that group and add in Robert, all of a sudden you have a good top 5 in your offense and can absorb some struggles from Colas, Sosa, Korey Lee and whatever stiffs they bring in to fill holes.

Pitching wise I think they can put together a league average-ish bullpen as long as they don't blow money on relievers again. They seem to be ok at finding value here without paying a premium. Starting is going to be a problem unless they sign a couple of the available quality starters out there like Nola. This is the only place I would spend, and could see some success with a Cease, Nola, Clevinger/other starter, Toussaint, Scholtens rotation.

 

Overall, though, ALL of this coming together is incredibly unlikely. The most likely outcome is they end up as bad as or slightly better than this year. It's a rebuilding year, even in this shitty division.

[Quin]

18 minutes ago, Snopek said:

I think there's this misconception from the anti tanking crowd that they think the rest of us actively enjoy tanking. No. It's just the less shitty of two shitty options.

For real. f*** this noise of wasting prime years of Luis Robert, but...

Option A: Try and see if young bats like Sosa, Colas, Ramos, Montgomery, Vaughn (yes, him included), Lee, Quero, Rodriguez, f*** it throw Elko in there, can develop at AAA/MLB next year. Let Santos sink or swim as a closer, try to salvage what you can from Crochet, Touki and Schlotens get more shots to become back end/depth guys, and Patino/Honeywell/Ramsey/Cronin/Lambert/Leasure get auditions. Nastrini, Eder, Burke and Bush get to work at AA and AAA and maybe get a cup of coffee.

Sign free agents to fill in the gaps in 2025.

Option B: Sign B, C and D tier free agents similar to Clevinger and Benintendi. Go for it.

[baseball_gal_aly]

32 minutes ago, Snopek said:

I think there's this misconception from the anti tanking crowd that they think the rest of us actively enjoy tanking. No. It's just the less shitty of two shitty options.

This. 

[almagest]

47 minutes ago, Snopek said:

I think there's this misconception from the anti tanking crowd that they think the rest of us actively enjoy tanking. No. It's just the less shitty of two shitty options.

I think there's an allure to tanking because you can dream about the future. That's where I think the issue lies here - this group has shown no ability to tank and come out the other side with a sustainably competitive team. Injuries didn't help but they failed to finish the job, and recent trends have been encouraging but I still doubt they can put together a good minor league system to continually reinforce the MLB team.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

Wait til people realize the new draft order rules. Sox will be probably worse next year and be guaranteed to pick outside the first 10 picks in 2025. They almost have to be competitive next year or they straight up screwed themselves because of how bad they are this season.

[Bob Sacamano]

8 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Wait til people realize the new draft order rules. Sox will be probably worse next year and be guaranteed to pick outside the first 10 picks in 2025. They almost have to be competitive next year or they straight up screwed themselves because of how bad they are this season.

Pick outside the top 10? 

[nitetrain8601]

The problem is, they simply lack the infrastructure to do what they need to do. The personnel up top simply is out of touch with baseball, but more importantly, with their own team. Their scouting is looking at your favorite ranking system and going after them. I don't know if they actually do any scouting. Even those they're taking fliers on, are just former 1st rounders who were failures. They simply don't invest in Latin America other than trying to sign the next Cuban connection. Anytime they have to develop one of those players, they bust. 

Draft wise, they've simply missed. Madrigal looks good, but not godly like some predicted. Tough thing is, maybe their amateur "scouting" is good, but their player development is that poor. You can't tell with this team because they seem to suck as everything other than making the fanbase upset. 

They wanted to retool, but didn't get the pieces necessary to successfully compete next year unless they spend the money. They're not going to spend the money. Don't tell them they need bullpen help, because Hahn will give away whatever budget he has to that position. It's stupid to spend money on a bullpen since it's volatile from year to year. Even an elite closer is usually only elite for 3 years. 

They need a starting 2B, 3B, RF, C and at least two SP if you think Kopech can hold up. My guess is, they're going to try to resign Clevinger. They need locker room leaders and need to be accepting of that. 

Seems like the only good position players are the ones that the team isn't spending time on developing or those who have tuned out Sox coaching. 

Grifol couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag. But they're going to bank on the division being poor. Hahn is going to say they knew they would be taking a step back as if he never said they expect to compete next year, reminiscent of Gar Forman with the Bulls saying they fired Thibs for underachieving with what they thought was a championship team, then the next year saying he didn't say that when Hoiberg was trash.

 

The whole organization is rotten to the core. The only entertainment value you have is Luis Robert, Dylan Cease once every 5 days and to watch the other team in 2024. 

[LittleHurtCG]

1 hour ago, Snopek said:

I think there's this misconception from the anti tanking crowd that they think the rest of us actively enjoy tanking. No. It's just the less shitty of two shitty options.

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with this a bit. There are defintely folks around here in the present and past who enjoy a good tank job. The idea of winning the propsect ranking wars gets them off more than the play of the mlb team does. 

13 minutes ago, almagest said:

I think there's an allure to tanking because you can dream about the future. That's where I think the issue lies here - this group has shown no ability to tank and come out the other side with a sustainably competitive team. Injuries didn't help but they failed to finish the job, and recent trends have been encouraging but I still doubt they can put together a good minor league system to continually reinforce the MLB team.

Exactly. Tankies love dreaming about the future and all the shiny prospects. We have already been there and done that. Yoan Moncada isn't anywhere close to the next Robinson Cano. Michael Kopech ain't the next Kerry Wood. Eloy Jimenez isn't hitting 40 plus bombs every year. All the pieces from the Adam Eaton trade are no longer with the organization. Blake Rutherford is out there selling cars or insurance somewhere.  The top draft picks acquired through the tank did not turn into close to a Kris Bryant or Alec Bregman. 

The tank jobby failed miserably and it blows my mind that the tankies want to double down and try it again. 

[Buehrle>Wood]

10 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with this a bit. There are defintely folks around here in the present and past who enjoy a good tank job. The idea of winning the propsect ranking wars gets them off more than the play of the mlb team does. 

Exactly. Tankies love dreaming about the future and all the shiny prospects. We have already been there and done that. Yoan Moncada isn't anywhere close to the next Robinson Cano. Michael Kopech ain't the next Kerry Wood. Eloy Jimenez isn't hitting 40 plus bombs every year. All the pieces from the Adam Eaton trade are no longer with the organization. Blake Rutherford is out there selling cars or insurance somewhere.  The top draft picks acquired through the tank did not turn into close to a Kris Bryant or Alec Bregman. 

The tank jobby failed miserably and it blows my mind that the tankies want to double down and try it again. 

A+ post, but Blake Rutherford is somehow playing major league baseball as it stands right now.

[Texsox]

I see two options and four outcomes for next year:

Trying to win and actually winning ?

Trying to win and losing 

Trying to lose and winning 

Trying to lose and losing

Only the last one are they proven to be capable of. 

But knowing this franchise they will surprise me and pick something like not having any plan and just treading water. 

 

[Quin]

10 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with this a bit. There are defintely folks around here in the present and past who enjoy a good tank job. The idea of winning the propsect ranking wars gets them off more than the play of the mlb team does. 

Exactly. Tankies love dreaming about the future and all the shiny prospects. We have already been there and done that. Yoan Moncada isn't anywhere close to the next Robinson Cano. Michael Kopech ain't the next Kerry Wood. Eloy Jimenez isn't hitting 40 plus bombs every year. All the pieces from the Adam Eaton trade are no longer with the organization. Blake Rutherford is out there selling cars or insurance somewhere.  The top draft picks acquired through the tank did not turn into close to a Kris Bryant or Alec Bregman. 

The tank jobby failed miserably and it blows my mind that the tankies want to double down and try it again. 

He's on the Nationals.

But everyone that wants to try and let the next batch of prospects succeed pretty vocally wants coaches and staff that can actually develop them, not Pedro, who seems philosophically aligned with you.

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I see two options and four outcomes for next year:

Trying to win and actually winning ?

Trying to win and losing 

Trying to lose and winning 

Trying to lose and losing

Only the last one are they proven to be capable of. 

But knowing this franchise they will surprise me and pick something like not having any plan and just treading water. 

 

They're also very good at trying to win and losing. Their version of trying anyway.

[ron883]

1 minute ago, Quin said:

He's on the Nationals.

But everyone that wants to try and let the next batch of prospects succeed pretty vocally wants coaches and staff that can actually develop them, not Pedro, who seems philosophically aligned with you.

Wow, I had no idea he made it. His numbers in the minors this season are pretty damn good.