caulfield12 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 (edited) On 4/7/2025 at 6:09 PM, WestEddy said: They're in a rebuild, and I believe their TV deal (or lack thereof) has them in a money crunch. Whatever you've been harping on is meaningless if there was no chance of it happening. And being in a rebuild, it would be colossally dumb to punt two draft picks. I think you're counter-argument has been "well, we've not done well in the draft, so who cares about that?" To which I would reply, "And all of the free agents we sign collapse and become albatross signings for their duration. So, if we signed Alonso, Kim and Santander, they would all hit like Jacob Amaya. Book it." And I would be right. Expand But the very regime Getz was a part of helped put the organization in that desperate negotiating position where they lost another $55-60 million to spend this year (going to CHSN and off Comcast)...and seems by all appearances like the least profitable RSN deal in the entire industry. Why would a 121 loss franchise expect a different result than that? Edited April 7 by caulfield12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 4:50 PM, Tony said: There are multiple things that can be true at the same time - When Getz was given the job, it became clear this was going to be a full tear down. They did the same thing in 2016 offseason, where they went from 78 wins to 67. Then they fell to 62 wins in 2018. While winning 41 games and setting records in 2024 should have never happened and was embarrassing, I agree with the idea the difference between winning 55 games or 65 games doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, it's still shitty baseball. - It's hard for people to get over that it's Chris Getz running things, and I understand why, I'm one of them. The last regime was here far too long, and had very little success outside of one magical season, and Getz had a key role in this organization for a good chunk of that. He should not have been rewarded for those "efforts" with a promotion, but here we are. It's absolutely fair to have doubts, he has done NOTHING to earn anyones trust or respect. - He was tasked with a very difficult job, as the organization needed a full enema and he was working with very few assets. The 2016 rebuild was a very different situation. There were some attractive and valuable pieces on the roster, they couldn't figure out (or didn't have the right resources) to surround their stars with talent. You fast forward to 2020/2021, from the trades of 2016 they acquired Moncada, Eloy, Giolito, Cease and Kopech. Add in the Cuban Pipeline with Abreu and Robert, FINALLY drafting a hitter that has MLB success in Anderson, and you created a core. It obviously didn't work, but the formula still makes sense today. Getz had Crochet/Fedde/Robert to work with. The Crochet deal seems "good" right now, time will tell. The Fedde deal was awful, it was awful then and it's still awful now. And he seemingly missed the timing on trading Robert, who knows what that eventually nets them. So he doesn't have the same runway that Hahn had, and some of that is on Getz. - I think it's a fair assumption to make that if Getz had it his way, he would have spent more on areas of the team for 2025, so they aren't flirting with 41 wins again in 2025. We know who the owner is, he knew they were going to be REALLY bad again, why spend another 25-30 million on the team when it takes the Sox from 48 wins to 58 wins? Why spend that? All of this is to say something most (if not all) of us already know. Nothing changes until Jerry is gone. They won't outspend teams in free agency. They won't outspend anyone in player development. They won't be cutting edge on new philosophies and strategy. They won't draft exceptionally well (when have they EVER?) So what does that leave you? An incredibly mediocre franchise, which is exactly what they have been under the ownership of Jerry Reinsdorf. It's really not any more complicated or nuanced than that. Expand Pretty spot on but Getz also had Cease to work with which is a pretty big piece in his GM tenure and all of this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:03 PM, Quin said: Young guys > vets on rebuilding teams. It's the principle of the matter, because it was a lost season, so why the f*** were they running a bunch of shambling corpses out there? Expand Actually, Young guys who can play and are ready >> vets on rebuilding team. We had/have none of the former. Fletcher got a very long run last year outside of his AAA reboot and the injury. I think he was the starter for the last 6-8 weeks of the season. Colas doesn't have a position and doesn't hit. DeLoach could top out as a 4th OF. He didn't hit in a bandbox for a full season. Quote Plenty of other trades, but right now Booser is more likely to turn back into a pumpkin than ever give the Sox value. Expand The Tanner Banks trade looks like it brought back the equal of their 2023 1st rounder. Not saying a lot, but he's in the future SS convo for now. DeJong brought back an arm with big upside. The Vargas trade looks like ass if he doesn't hit and play borderline great defense at 3B. He's doing neither. The Thorpe TJS hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:09 PM, caulfield12 said: Just like the Red Sox trading Betts instead of signing/extending him was a great move? The majority of time when you move young Cy Young or MVP caliber position players for prospects, it usually backfires. There are always exceptions...but certainly wouldn't bet on it working out consistently. (Just ask Pirates' fans.) Even when management pushes those future cost-savings moves, as with Bloom...it still gets the GM fired eventually. And the amount of overall talent on the big league roster certainly continues to decrease. Leading to a perpetual cycle or series of rebuilds... Expand We're in a perpetual cycle of rebuild right now because international has been punted, Hostetler was regularly brow-beaten to draft "almost-ready" players in the 1st round. A trade shouldn't remake an organization. A trade should bring 3-4 more prospects to a group of prospects. Prospects fail at a high percentage. That is true for traded prospects, drafted prospects, and internationally scouted prospects. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:16 PM, WestEddy said: Actually, Young guys who can play and are ready >> vets on rebuilding team. We had/have none of the former. Fletcher got a very long run last year outside of his AAA reboot and the injury. I think he was the starter for the last 6-8 weeks of the season. Colas doesn't have a position and doesn't hit. DeLoach could top out as a 4th OF. He didn't hit in a bandbox for a full season. The Tanner Banks trade looks like it brought back the equal of their 2023 1st rounder. Not saying a lot, but he's in the future SS convo for now. DeJong brought back an arm with big upside. The Vargas trade looks like ass if he doesn't hit and play borderline great defense at 3B. He's doing neither. The Thorpe TJS hurts. Expand Once again...who was responsible for the development of guys like Colas Cespedes Ramos? (I guess we just blame Paddy for everything now. That's mighty convenient though.) And players that are rapidly promoted through the minors but lacking in defensive skill sets and/or fundamentals like Baldwin? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:21 PM, WestEddy said: We're in a perpetual cycle of rebuild right now because international has been punted, Hostetler was regularly brow-beaten to draft "almost-ready" players in the 1st round. A trade shouldn't remake an organization. A trade should bring 3-4 more prospects to a group of prospects. Prospects fail at a high percentage. That is true for traded prospects, drafted prospects, and internationally scouted prospects. Expand This sounds exactly like the Pirates for the last twenty years. Except even they have a $100+ million contract for Reynolds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:23 PM, caulfield12 said: Once again...who was responsible for the development of guys like Colas Cespedes Ramos? (I guess we just blame Paddy for everything now. That's mighty convenient though.) And players that are rapidly promoted through the minors but lacking in defensive skill sets and/or fundamentals like Baldwin? Expand Why are you including Ramos? Are you calling him a development failure? Colas and Cespedes are the result of an organizational Cuba-centric international focus. And on that, I would call KW, Hahn and Paddy responsible for them. That's not "convenient". That is the fact of the matter. It's actually convenient that you make up your own facts (Baldwin was an above average SS last season). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:25 PM, caulfield12 said: This sounds exactly like the Pirates for the last twenty years. Except even they have a $100+ million contract for Reynolds. Expand Great. We'll circle round and compare notes in 20 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fielder Jones Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 some sox fans did not prepare themselves for the rebuild. thats all this boils down to 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 I still believe that an outside hire, working within the same restraints and limitations as Getz, would have this org in a better spot. Modernizing the operation is something that should have happened anyway, so Getz gets no extra credit from me. An outside hire with any idea of how a modern front office should be run would have done the same. And probably do a better job. Yes, Getz inherited a catastrophic mess, (that he helped create), yet managed to take a 101 loss team and make it 20 games worse. It is mind boggling how bad his roster management was the first year on the job. There is tanking, and then there is constructing the worst team in modern baseball history. No GM should be allowed to survive that. But worst of all, he is inept at talent evaluation. The Crochet trade suggests that he might have learned something from past mistakes, but that doesn't erase giving away other trade assests for vitually nothing. Or the continued org penchant for overpaying washed up veterans that offer little value towards building the future roster. Nothing changes until JR is gone, and there will always be limits to how this org operates until then, but that doesn't excuse the s%*# job Getz has done to this point. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 (edited) On 4/7/2025 at 6:36 PM, Fielder Jones said: some sox fans did not prepare themselves for the rebuild. thats all this boils down to Expand For which rebuild? The first, second, or inevitable third one after this one fails? Edited April 7 by WhiteSox2023 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:36 PM, Fielder Jones said: some sox fans did not prepare themselves for the rebuild. thats all this boils down to Expand Not really. I was fine with a rebuild but this is far far worse than that. They’re not even doing the rebuild part of it right. At least Hahn did that part well imo. He just screwed up free agent signings. I don’t even see Getz getting close to that step with the way things are going. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loidwalden Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 I can't believe the title of this topic??!! I wrote last year during our 120+ loss season that Hahn was getting a pass. [ many dissented] It is way too early to blame Getz, but not too late blame Hahn. Hahn can't get off the hook for at least a year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 Westeddy will defend Getz till death. How bout that bullpen lol?!? 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:36 PM, Fielder Jones said: some sox fans did not prepare themselves for the rebuild. thats all this boils down to Expand To be fair, ownership/management told the fan base that this was to prevent a rebuild, and that because we are in the AL Central, this would be easier. But sure. It's the fans. And if they were intentionally lying to us, this is the same group that is now telling us how great everyone they hired is, and that everything will be just fine, so you can see how we don't really believe them. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:39 PM, Tnetennba said: I still believe that an outside hire, working within the same restraints and limitations as Getz, would have this org in a better spot. Modernizing the operation is something that should have happened anyway, so Getz gets no extra credit from me. An outside hire with any idea of how a modern front office should be run would have done the same. And probably do a better job. Yes, Getz inherited a catastrophic mess, (that he helped create), yet managed to take a 101 loss team and make it 20 games worse. It is mind boggling how bad his roster management was the first year on the job. There is tanking, and then there is constructing the worst team in modern baseball history. No GM should be allowed to survive that. But worst of all, he is inept at talent evaluation. The Crochet trade suggests that he might have learned something from past mistakes, but that doesn't erase giving away other trade assests for vitually nothing. Or the continued org penchant for overpaying washed up veterans that offer little value towards building the future roster. Nothing changes until JR is gone, and there will always be limits to how this org operates until then, but that doesn't excuse the s%*# job Getz has done to this point. Expand Yeah, look, things were going to be bad, we all saw that far ahead, but no one planned for the worst ever. That shouldn't be where the line is. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 Getz avoid the all time record you set last year and call it a successful 2025: impossible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:44 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Westeddy will defend Getz till death. How bout that bullpen lol?!? Expand Most of this isn't even defending him. "If a #22 pick put up 14 bWAR during his time with the Sox, that would be great." Who does that defend? "Either Fletcher was a bad trade acquisition who sucks and is no more than OF depth, or he's a budding major league talent who needs a full season of starts. Pick one." What is that defending? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopek Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:36 PM, Fielder Jones said: some sox fans did not prepare themselves for the rebuild. thats all this boils down to Expand Nah I don't agree with that. The truth is, fans don't really know how to prepare themselves for a rebuild. Complete teardowns like this are relatively new since the Astros success. Sure, we've already been through one with the Sox, but that doesn't mean we are now experts in what to expect. Besides, there is no amount of "preparing" that would make setting the loss record not a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:57 PM, WestEddy said: Most of this isn't even defending him. "If a #22 pick put up 14 bWAR during his time with the Sox, that would be great." Who does that defend? "Either Fletcher was a bad trade acquisition who sucks and is no more than OF depth, or he's a budding major league talent who needs a full season of starts. Pick one." What is that defending? Expand you have a habit of defending individual moves, which fine, but the sum of them is awful. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:43 PM, loidwalden said: I can't believe the title of this topic??!! I wrote last year during our 120+ loss season that Hahn was getting a pass. [ many dissented] It is way too early to blame Getz, but not too late blame Hahn. Hahn can't get off the hook for at least a year. Expand I mean, back then nobody knew what you are talking about just like today ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:59 PM, chitownsportsfan said: you have a habit of defending individual moves, which fine, but the sum of them is awful. Expand 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 (edited) On 4/7/2025 at 2:50 PM, Y2Jimmy0 said: I'm truly wondering what the alternative is here? I wasn't a fan of the Chris Getz hire because it was once again way too insular. I like many of things that Getz has done since taking over though so my opinion has shifted. Were either of you expecting something different right now? This is one of the worst rosters in baseball. This is what it looks like. Expand Who creates the roster? Do you honestly think Getz has any ability to evaluate talent? In any case, this thread is back where it belongs and that makes me satisfied for now. Edited April 7 by wegner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 6:16 PM, Rowand44 said: Pretty spot on but Getz also had Cease to work with which is a pretty big piece in his GM tenure and all of this. Expand You're correct, and totally forgot about him because of the lack luster package that was received. Good call 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/7/2025 at 2:50 PM, Y2Jimmy0 said: I'm truly wondering what the alternative is here? I wasn't a fan of the Chris Getz hire because it was once again way too insular. I like many of things that Getz has done since taking over though so my opinion has shifted. Were either of you expecting something different right now? This is one of the worst rosters in baseball. This is what it looks like. Expand Why don’t you tell us why there was no alternative? Or why you believe so strongly in everything he has done in house, that is not visible or even quantifiable? Or why we should accept him as “better than no alternative” and why it’s acceptable to be likely losing 100 for 3 straight seasons and very little signs of turning this thing upward? While I definitely agree that he didn’t have a good hand coming in here, I don’t see anything by way of upward movement, and it’s really hard for me to sit here and agree with the idea “well there was nothing better that could have been done” because you have accepted that Jerry did the cheapest bullshit fix he could think of 3 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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