Kopech to the bullpen, Urena starting Saturday.

[Highland]

1 hour ago, 2Deep said:

How has he been mishandled?  I hear this narrative a lot because en vogue to bash all things White Sox.  I'm just curious as to why you feel this way..........

The team was making him out to be a superstar before he threw one major league pitch. Yes, he had a great arm. But there are pitchers and then there are throwers. In the beginning, Kopech was still a thrower. Of course, this was done because of the tank job and the Sox needed the fans to get excited about. Let the guy learn how to pitch first. Then he can be labeled as a super star.

Hard throwers like Kopech are frequently as they develop. Look at what happened to Kerry Wood.

[FloydBannister1983]

On 9/6/2023 at 10:06 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

From DVS story tonight in the Sun-Times. Have the Sox seen enough of his struggles?

Sox probable starters for the weekend series in Detroit list Saturday as TBD in Michael Kopech’s turn. Kopech (5.31 ERA) has walked 31 batters and allowed 24 earned runs in his last 28 ¹⁄₃ innings over seven starts. He was pulled from his start Sunday after recording just five outs and walking five batters. “We’re still in the process of communicating, not with Kopech, but as an organization, to see what we’re going to do,” Grifol said. “Why? That’s going to stay internal.”

Story also said Crochet started another rehab assignment in Birmingham. 

Hey Michael - why didn't you just flip off the bullpen when you left the mound?

[bmags]

2 hours ago, Highland said:

The team was making him out to be a superstar before he threw one major league pitch. Yes, he had a great arm. But there are pitchers and then there are throwers. In the beginning, Kopech was still a thrower. Of course, this was done because of the tank job and the Sox needed the fans to get excited about. Let the guy learn how to pitch first. Then he can be labeled as a super star.

Hard throwers like Kopech are frequently as they develop. Look at what happened to Kerry Wood.

mmm gonna add this to the list of completely normal things other teams do that white sox apparently cannot without ruining them. Giving shortstops new positions? Destroyed players. Say they are good? death.

 

[Snopek]

4 hours ago, Highland said:

The team was making him out to be a superstar before he threw one major league pitch. Yes, he had a great arm. But there are pitchers and then there are throwers. In the beginning, Kopech was still a thrower. Of course, this was done because of the tank job and the Sox needed the fans to get excited about. Let the guy learn how to pitch first. Then he can be labeled as a super star.

Hard throwers like Kopech are frequently as they develop. Look at what happened to Kerry Wood.

Lol I thought you were gonna say something about his workload or development. But you're just saying they referred to the top prospect as a top prospect?

[wegner]

On 9/7/2023 at 10:50 AM, cuban_sammiches said:

The Kopech, Crochet, Lambert, Bummer, Santos bullpen next year is gonna lock s%*# down!

Is that one of those lock the barn door after the horses have already gotten out scenarios???

[wegner]

On 9/7/2023 at 11:02 AM, Buehrle>Wood said:

Don't forget Shaw with 130 appearances.

 

(Seriously I actually hope they bring him back. Much needed leader in the pen. Imagine Kopech crying about pitching too much in front of him)

Hey, how about we just make Shaw the opener every single game? He's going to pitch anyways so let's get it over with right away.

[Highland]

1 hour ago, Snopek said:

Lol I thought you were gonna say something about his workload or development. But you're just saying they referred to the top prospect as a top prospect?

They went beyond saying he was their top prosect. They had him walking on water. In addition, when he first came up, he even had worse command than he does now. His fast ball was over the place, and he nearly took a couple guys' heads off. When he did get his fast ball over, it was knocked well into the seats. Then he needs Tommy John surgery after pitching in the major leagues for a month. Forget your lol. 

I stand by what I earlier stated. Putting unrealistic expectations on a young player isn't wise. In the end, Kopech has never lived up to the hype. And he never will.

[South Side Hit Men]

22 hours ago, scotty22hotty said:

this just tells you how broken bWAR is vs fWAR for pitchers.

Kopech sucks but a real pitching coach could probably fix his (and the teams) control issues

Has either site or another writer quantified as to the major differences between the two WAR calculation methods? Would be interesting, but it seems as the Baseball Reference is more middle of the road and Fangraphs has a wide variance considering the entire season.

To me the bWAR looks more realistic for most. How are Lance Lynn and Aaron Bummer positive pitchers? How is Cease nearly a 3 win pitcher?

Current / Ex White Sox 2023 YTD bWAR (b) / fWAR (f)

(includes all 2023 for players traded. players with a +/- 1.0 or greater difference listed below):

• 1.9 Lance Lynn b -1.4 vs. f 0.5
• 1.7 Aaron Bummer b -1.0 vs. f 0.7
• 1.7 Dylan Cease b 1.0 vs. f 2.7
• 1.7 Michael Kopech  b 0.9 vs. f -0.8
• 1.2 Tim Anderson  b -1.8 vs. f -0.6

[Balta1701]

8 hours ago, 2Deep said:

How has he been mishandled?  I hear this narrative a lot because en vogue to bash all things White Sox.  I'm just curious as to why you feel this way..........

No one answered this so I will.

2017 and 2018: Kopech starts off both years in the minors. He sets up a pattern, he struggles with his control early in the year then his control and performance improve during the year. He looks like a guy with a big arm but who needs work to find his control. In 2018, there is a game early in the year where he walks 5 in a short outing and it shows in his stats. Then he goes the month of July and barely walks anyone, he has clearly found a groove, and gets called up.

He pitches 4 games and leaves with TJS. He is out through the end of 2019. Some people have disputed whether he should have been called up at the time, it was controversial, I personally had no problem with it as I felt he had done what he needed to do in Charlotte and it was time to give him some big league innings before the season ended.

In 2020, for various personal reasons, he opts out of the shortened COVID season. While this isn't the team's fault at all, this does mean that he hasn't thrown a pitch in anger in nearly 3 years by the time he comes back in Spring Training of 2021.

So you have a guy who has a live arm, hasn't pitched competitively in 3 years, and had a couple cycles of of "Needing to build up innings so that his control would improve". This seems like a guy who should absolutely be sent to the minors to start 2021, or at least given a method to be able to start for a part of a season, he needs a chance to throw as many innings as he can. Personally I would have put him in the minors and said so repeatedly at the time, they should have been trying to push him up to 100+ competitive innings to strengthen his arm. They put him in the bullpen to start the year. Ok, fine, they moved him to starting in May when someone was hurt, and then he hurt his leg and went on the IL.

When he came back, they brought him back without any minor league rehab stint, brought him back right before the all star break so he had extra time just sitting around, and then buried him at the back of the bullpen for 2 months. He had a grand total of 2 outings that reached 2 innings in all of July and August combined. He didn't throw 3 innings in an outing again until September 29. Don't get me started on how he was used in the playoffs as that was LaRussa stupid too.

He threw a total of just over 70 innings the whole year. At the time, I guarantee you I was saying "Fine, this might work for this year, but you're taking the risk that the guy will not be able to find the kind of control he was developing in the long seasons in 2017 and 2018, and you're risking whether he can strengthen his arm enough to be a starter with this short of a season." What are his problems now? Control, use of his secondary stuff, and a few additional injuries. 

Now that's not necessarily the only problem he had, 3 years off is going to be tough to come back from for anyone. He may well have other personal issues, I don't know anything about his current work ethic, and Ethan Katz may well have no good solutions for him. But in terms of mishandling him, for both Kopech and Crochet they put them in the 2021 bullpen to "Win now" and one of the risks of doing so was "This might help you right now and leave you with both of these guys struggling with injury and control if you try to move them to starters." That is precisely what happened, and I continue to believe that this is no coincidence, the White Sox gambled these guys' future as starters was unimportant compared to their 2021 success, and wound up with guys who can't handle themselves as starters. 

[Balta1701]

 

 

[Snopek]

1 hour ago, Highland said:

They went beyond saying he was their top prosect. They had him walking on water. In addition, when he first came up, he even had worse command than he does now. His fast ball was over the place, and he nearly took a couple guys' heads off. When he did get his fast ball over, it was knocked well into the seats. Then he needs Tommy John surgery after pitching in the major leagues for a month. Forget your lol. 

I stand by what I earlier stated. Putting unrealistic expectations on a young player isn't wise. In the end, Kopech has never lived up to the hype. And he never will.

I wasn't doubting that they mishandled him, I was just looking for more tangible reasons like Balta laid out rather than just that their expectations of him were too high.

But yeah, colossal disappointment any way you look at it.

[Timmy U]

Jose Urena’s stats are amazingly bad. But at least he’s 31.  At this point, I think the White Sox have gone avant-garde “The Athletics of Cruelty.”

[Texsox]

@Balta1701 Thank you. I think there are some mistakes by everyone involved plus some unlucky for him world events out of everyone's control. 

 

 

[Lip Man 1]

6 minutes ago, Texsox said:

@Balta1701 Thank you. I think there are some mistakes by everyone involved plus some unlucky for him world events out of everyone's control. 

 

 

I agree but I'd also say some of these events were in his control too. 

[Rowand44]

2 hours ago, Highland said:

They went beyond saying he was their top prosect. They had him walking on water. In addition, when he first came up, he even had worse command than he does now. His fast ball was over the place, and he nearly took a couple guys' heads off. When he did get his fast ball over, it was knocked well into the seats. Then he needs Tommy John surgery after pitching in the major leagues for a month. Forget your lol. 

I stand by what I earlier stated. Putting unrealistic expectations on a young player isn't wise. In the end, Kopech has never lived up to the hype. And he never will.

There are 8 billion things to destroy the White Sox for but this is a bizarre one.  All guys that highly touted get that type of hype.  Hell, Keith Law had him as the number 1 pitching prospect in the game.  That's just what top prospects go through.

[Texsox]

46 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I agree but I'd also say some of these events were in his control too. 

Definitely. I was going to toss it out there that probably close to or more than half of this is on him. But, with the mood we're in, anything short of blaming almost everything on the club just doesn't feel good. 

[Quin]

First thought: This really feels like them limiting his innings + help him get his groove back

Second thought: The 2024 rotation

Cease (because he destroyed his value), Touki, Schlotens, Kopech-Crochet alternating starts and it's called "innovative," Davis Martin — now pitching with his left hand, Tanner Banks regularly pitching a bullpen day, Oscar Colas stretched out as a pitcher.

Then Mena and Nastrini get called up and Pedro says they'll get playing time when they're ready, just not yet. Inexplicably, they play right field.

[Texsox]

49 minutes ago, Quin said:

First thought: This really feels like them limiting his innings + help him get his groove back

Second thought: The 2024 rotation

Cease (because he destroyed his value), Touki, Schlotens, Kopech-Crochet alternating starts and it's called "innovative," Davis Martin — now pitching with his left hand, Tanner Banks regularly pitching a bullpen day, Oscar Colas stretched out as a pitcher.

Then Mena and Nastrini get called up and Pedro says they'll get playing time when they're ready, just not yet. Inexplicably, they play right field.

Can they win 60 games? 

[2Deep]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

No one answered this so I will.

2017 and 2018: Kopech starts off both years in the minors. He sets up a pattern, he struggles with his control early in the year then his control and performance improve during the year. He looks like a guy with a big arm but who needs work to find his control. In 2018, there is a game early in the year where he walks 5 in a short outing and it shows in his stats. Then he goes the month of July and barely walks anyone, he has clearly found a groove, and gets called up.

He pitches 4 games and leaves with TJS. He is out through the end of 2019. Some people have disputed whether he should have been called up at the time, it was controversial, I personally had no problem with it as I felt he had done what he needed to do in Charlotte and it was time to give him some big league innings before the season ended.

In 2020, for various personal reasons, he opts out of the shortened COVID season. While this isn't the team's fault at all, this does mean that he hasn't thrown a pitch in anger in nearly 3 years by the time he comes back in Spring Training of 2021.

So you have a guy who has a live arm, hasn't pitched competitively in 3 years, and had a couple cycles of of "Needing to build up innings so that his control would improve". This seems like a guy who should absolutely be sent to the minors to start 2021, or at least given a method to be able to start for a part of a season, he needs a chance to throw as many innings as he can. Personally I would have put him in the minors and said so repeatedly at the time, they should have been trying to push him up to 100+ competitive innings to strengthen his arm. They put him in the bullpen to start the year. Ok, fine, they moved him to starting in May when someone was hurt, and then he hurt his leg and went on the IL.

When he came back, they brought him back without any minor league rehab stint, brought him back right before the all star break so he had extra time just sitting around, and then buried him at the back of the bullpen for 2 months. He had a grand total of 2 outings that reached 2 innings in all of July and August combined. He didn't throw 3 innings in an outing again until September 29. Don't get me started on how he was used in the playoffs as that was LaRussa stupid too.

He threw a total of just over 70 innings the whole year. At the time, I guarantee you I was saying "Fine, this might work for this year, but you're taking the risk that the guy will not be able to find the kind of control he was developing in the long seasons in 2017 and 2018, and you're risking whether he can strengthen his arm enough to be a starter with this short of a season." What are his problems now? Control, use of his secondary stuff, and a few additional injuries. 

Now that's not necessarily the only problem he had, 3 years off is going to be tough to come back from for anyone. He may well have other personal issues, I don't know anything about his current work ethic, and Ethan Katz may well have no good solutions for him. But in terms of mishandling him, for both Kopech and Crochet they put them in the 2021 bullpen to "Win now" and one of the risks of doing so was "This might help you right now and leave you with both of these guys struggling with injury and control if you try to move them to starters." That is precisely what happened, and I continue to believe that this is no coincidence, the White Sox gambled these guys' future as starters was unimportant compared to their 2021 success, and wound up with guys who can't handle themselves as starters. 

Thank you 

Fantastic.....

I am wrong where I am wrong.

But (personal opinion) this dude is as soft as they come

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, 2Deep said:

Thank you 

Fantastic.....

I am wrong where I am wrong.

But (personal opinion) this dude is as soft as they come

As I said at the bottom, this could certainly be true, but it also doesn’t excuse the White Zack their bad decisions. If they’re going to have this many limits on their drafting, on their international signings, on their free agent spending, then they have to do everything right when they’re holding a possible starter since some of them won’t work out even if you do everything you can correct. They can’t afford these high risk low reward behaviors if they’re not willing to rebuild every couple years if they don’t work out.

[Quin]

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

Can they win 60 games? 

160, because the other teams genuinely can't believe the Sox are serious and don't show up until 15 minutes after game time and the Sox are declared victors.

[Chick Mercedes]

Those Red Sox. Boyyy they done got us good

[Chick Mercedes]

33 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

As I said at the bottom, this could certainly be true, but it also doesn’t excuse the White Zack their bad decisions. If they’re going to have this many limits on their drafting, on their international signings, on their free agent spending, then they have to do everything right when they’re holding a possible starter since some of them won’t work out even if you do everything you can correct. They can’t afford these high risk low reward behaviors if they’re not willing to rebuild every couple years if they don’t work out.

They can’t go on short staffing the player acquisitions/development areas. If we don’t hear anything about change right there, then why would we ever invest our time and money with this franchise ever again.

[Stinky Stanky]

On 9/7/2023 at 11:02 AM, Buehrle>Wood said:

Don't forget Shaw with 130 appearances.

 

(Seriously I actually hope they bring him back. Much needed leader in the pen. Imagine Kopech crying about pitching too much in front of him)

What Graveman should have been and on the cheap. Too late to matter. 

[nrockway]

22 hours ago, Snopek said:

I wasn't doubting that they mishandled him, I was just looking for more tangible reasons like Balta laid out rather than just that their expectations of him were too high.

But yeah, colossal disappointment any way you look at it.

They seem like separate things (the ‘expectations’ vs organizational mismanagement) but the former is harder to quantify how it’s impacted Kopech’s career and other players in a similar boat. It might have an effect, thinking you’re destined for greatness, what if that means that as an individual Kopech thinks he can take it easy relative to his peers or is otherwise burdened by the expectations?

it’s a real thing because draft busts can turn it around once they mentally mature. I don’t know what goes on in Kopech’s head, but media reports suggest he needs to grow up. Maybe this is a wake up call that it’s time to take his career seriously. I still think he has the tools to be a very good starting pitcher, is the fact that his secondary arsenal is predictable and can’t be thrown for strikes a problem because of him or the Sox or both?

Edited September 9, 2023 by nrockway