Getz goes into detail...

[chitownsportsfan]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

The defensive abilities of sox players have been so bad for almost 15 years now. We have several examples now, with Semien and Narvaez, of players that were more naturally capable of better defense that this org couldn't tap into.

We also have players like Castillo, who had a plus defensive skill that regressed on the sox.

And we hired the player development guy and he thinks it's a player problem not a coaching one. 

I'm skeptical!

There's quite a few players the Sox have cast away as a finished product that were not exactly finished products. As we've said a million times it's a coaching and scouting issue. We have god awful MLB scouting and god awful coaching throughout the entire org.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

There's quite a few players the Sox have cast away as a finished product that were not exactly finished products. As we've said a million times it's a coaching and scouting issue. We have god awful MLB scouting and god awful coaching throughout the entire org.

I just think it is too ubiquitous to be a scouting issue. Yeah, they have drafted a lot of players like Collins/Burger/Sheets that were believed to be good enough offensively it papers over defense, and they seem to mak e that decision over and over, as we saw with Sheets in the Outfield.

BUT - guys like Leury when we acquired had reputations as defensive whizzes. He was plus versatile but average at defense from the jump.

I have zero confidence a sosa, rodriguez, ramos will come up and be plus defense, and they won't really try to improve them.

When have we EVER had this?

https://theathletic.com/4847416/2023/09/10/cardinals-jordan-walker-willie-mcgee/

(story about jordan walkers awful defensive start this year, which bothered the cards and they sought to improve it and now he's improved it)

The sox may be interested in defense, but just like when vince coleman sets out to make us a blazing stolen bases team, the emphasis never translates. The org just has no idea how to do anything so they are just kinda imitating the language and motions of teams that care and fire people that can't teach.

[chitownsportsfan]

8 minutes ago, bmags said:

I just think it is too ubiquitous to be a scouting issue. Yeah, they have drafted a lot of players like Collins/Burger/Sheets that were believed to be good enough offensively it papers over defense, and they seem to mak e that decision over and over, as we saw with Sheets in the Outfield.

BUT - guys like Leury when we acquired had reputations as defensive whizzes. He was plus versatile but average at defense from the jump.

I have zero confidence a sosa, rodriguez, ramos will come up and be plus defense, and they won't really try to improve them.

When have we EVER had this?

https://theathletic.com/4847416/2023/09/10/cardinals-jordan-walker-willie-mcgee/

(story about jordan walkers awful defensive start this year, which bothered the cards and they sought to improve it and now he's improved it)

The sox may be interested in defense, but just like when vince coleman sets out to make us a blazing stolen bases team, the emphasis never translates. The org just has no idea how to do anything so they are just kinda imitating the language and motions of teams that care and fire people that can't teach.

Eh, that can all be true, and probably all is, but that doesn't eliminate poor scouting. Poor scouting of work habits, poor scouting of overall athletic profile, poor scouting of overall suitability for a MLB position.  Andrew Vaughn is a great example of all that.

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Eh, that can all be true, and probably all is, but that doesn't eliminate poor scouting. Poor scouting of work habits, poor scouting of overall athletic profile, poor scouting of overall suitability for a MLB position.  Andrew Vaughn is a great example of all that.

The one I still remember was with Semien - he was treated as a utility guy early, but he was playing SS more than any other position on the way up through the minors. When he got sent to the As, he was terrible defensively at first, but when they had Washington start working with him there was an article in the local Oakland papers about how Semien had never done the basic fielding drills that everyone is supposed to do at SS. This wasn't them taking a shot at the White Sox, this was a positive article about how they expected him to get better once he got to do the basic work, and turns out the article was correct.

But, from a White Sox perspective, this was an indictment I never forgot. How on earth does a guy come up through your system, get labeled as a utility guy, but also spend most of his time at SS, and yet not go through basic SS fielding and positioning drills? Where did they expect him to get to practice these things, did they expect him to Google all of them and do them on his own? They had him for years and this was the case. 

I don't find it that surprising that so many guys come up with the White Sox and struggle, and I don't think it's scouting as much as it is a complete lack of practice and no interest in practicing. Guys in the minor leagues are supposed to teach themselves, that's the way it's' done here. 

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The one I still remember was with Semien - he was treated as a utility guy early, but he was playing SS more than any other position on the way up through the minors. When he got sent to the As, he was terrible defensively at first, but when they had Washington start working with him there was an article in the local Oakland papers about how Semien had never done the basic fielding drills that everyone is supposed to do at SS. This wasn't them taking a shot at the White Sox, this was a positive article about how they expected him to get better once he got to do the basic work, and turns out the article was correct.

But, from a White Sox perspective, this was an indictment I never forgot. How on earth does a guy come up through your system, get labeled as a utility guy, but also spend most of his time at SS, and yet not go through basic SS fielding and positioning drills? Where did they expect him to get to practice these things, did they expect him to Google all of them and do them on his own? They had him for years and this was the case. 

I don't find it that surprising that so many guys come up with the White Sox and struggle, and I don't think it's scouting as much as it is a complete lack of practice and no interest in practicing. Guys in the minor leagues are supposed to teach themselves, that's the way it's' done here. 

Went to Cal Berkeley.

Maybe those Stanford guys thought he could figure everything out on his own.

 

Crazy that he basically got pushed out in 2014 in favor of giving playing time to Gordon Beckham, Alexei Ramirez and Conor Gillaspie.

Ugh....

Edited September 11, 2023 by caulfield12

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Went to Cal Berkeley.

Maybe those Stanford guys thought he could figure everything out on his own.

 

Crazy that he basically got pushed out in 2014 in favor of giving playing time to Gordon Beckham, Alexei Ramirez and Conor Gillaspie.

Ugh....

Again the entire organization from top to bottom is SNAFU. And nothing is really going to change until JR is gone and the baseball side of the operations is replaced. 

[bmags]

16 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

The one I still remember was with Semien - he was treated as a utility guy early, but he was playing SS more than any other position on the way up through the minors. When he got sent to the As, he was terrible defensively at first, but when they had Washington start working with him there was an article in the local Oakland papers about how Semien had never done the basic fielding drills that everyone is supposed to do at SS. This wasn't them taking a shot at the White Sox, this was a positive article about how they expected him to get better once he got to do the basic work, and turns out the article was correct.

But, from a White Sox perspective, this was an indictment I never forgot. How on earth does a guy come up through your system, get labeled as a utility guy, but also spend most of his time at SS, and yet not go through basic SS fielding and positioning drills? Where did they expect him to get to practice these things, did they expect him to Google all of them and do them on his own? They had him for years and this was the case. 

I don't find it that surprising that so many guys come up with the White Sox and struggle, and I don't think it's scouting as much as it is a complete lack of practice and no interest in practicing. Guys in the minor leagues are supposed to teach themselves, that's the way it's' done here. 

Remember when they were like "hey robin could you go field with him please instead of staying in your dugout"

Kinda weird how sox went from throwing constant shade at the manager to then deifying them.

[FrontierDayz]

Marcus Semien line avgs below at 2B for Rangers as leadoff followed by Corey Seager as SS having career year and Nathan Lowe at 1B…Semien team leader and strong fielder..Rangers seem to be coming out of team slump back into WC chase…

.281/24/87/.826

Another miss by Sox….and the beat goes on..

Good grief in presser Eberhaus sounded and even looked like Grifol alibing for Bears as PG does for Sox while assuring of turnaround…

NWside/Sox/Bears fan here now in Texas…

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by FrontierDayz
correction

[Pants Rowland]

18 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

.Guys in the minor leagues are supposed to teach themselves, that's the way it's' done here. 

What is interesting is I have heard the Sox are not the only team like this. They may take it to the lowest low, but in general, players are responsible for a lot of their own development in many organizations. Mentoring is really hit or miss depending on the MiLB level and primary position.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Pants Rowland said:

What is interesting is I have heard the Sox are not the only team like this. They may take it to the lowest low, but in general, players are responsible for a lot of their own development in many organizations. Mentoring is really hit or miss depending on the MiLB level and primary position.

There are certainly some players for whom that works, but I think all of us have recognized that there are pretty clear and dramatic differences between what teams are getting out of their systems and this is probably a pretty big factor. High draft picks help some teams (Baltimore) but not all teams (Kansas City), so you've got scouting and you've got development staff as the key differentiators.